Browsing through the German auction site eGun I came across the following gun. http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4342991
Several things interested me. First, it is a Sempert & Krieghoff pre World War II drilling. Secondly, it is a model "Waldschütz" which is a modification of the more common "Semper" drilling I had never seen before. Thirdly, although the most noticeable characteristic of the "Waldschütz" is its 55 cm barrels, this particular drilling has only 50 cm barrels. Lastly, when I arrived at the 5th photo accompanying the description, I noticed that this drilling is equipped with a feature known as "Herausnehmbares Scholßgewerk" in the Sempert & Krieghoff catalog.

This feature allows the entire lockwork of the drilling to be removed from the action without the use of tools, first bz turning the lever shown in photo 5, and then releasing the other lever which follows the curve of the pistol grip in photos 7 and 8. The seller was evidently not aware of this feature, since he didn't mention it in the description.

The drilling will be shipped to a gunsmith in Germany to forward it on to me, and I expect to receive a full report on the condition of the lockwork at that time. It may be that the action also features what is referred to as "automatische Kugelschloßverriegelung", a feature which automatically blocks the lock of the rifle barrel when the selector is switched to "shot". That would be an unexpected bonus.

Evidently no one else recognized the unusual feature of this drilling, because onlz one other person bid, and his bid was for the opening price only.

The scope is not original, an inexpensive Japanese replacement for whatever originally was fitted to the claw mount rings, but replacing it with a more suitable scope should not be a problem.

The buttstock wood does not appear to match the fore end, so it may be a replacement. That should not create too great a problem. The 16/65 shot chambers may be able to be opened to 16/70, but if not, I have a supply of 16/65 shells to use with it. Altogether, I am excited with the prospect of owning such an unusual gun.

Congratulations on a super find! What a neat drilling, very compact to boot. I sort of think the stock it original...Steve

How does it differ from the Semper & do you have the Nr. for the Herausnehmbares Scholßgewerk D.R.G.M./Gebrauchsmuster (maybe in the 600k range)? I was curious of the date for the D.R.G.M. and if this is an early variant?

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post223523

Considering the humpback style of the stock, I have reservations as it being a re-stock. Ever run across a Waldschütz-Anson?

Gebrauchsmuster Nr. 134556 was from 3.03.1900 as was for their stock dims or a stock?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I'm over my head when you start asking about a Gebrauchsmuster.

However, thanks for posting the reference to the earlier thread which pictures pages from the Sempert & Krieghoff catalog. One such page illustrates both the "herausnehmbares Schloßgewerk" and the "automatische Kugelschloßverriegelung" perfectly.

I had the impression that the "Schweinsrücken", so pronounced in the stock design of the drilling I just bought, was a post war development. I have four pre-war drillings, a Sempert & Krieghoff Neptun, a J.P. Sauer & Sohn Model 26, and two Greifelt drillings, none of which has a hint of a "Schweinsrücken", and I saw no mention of such a stock design in the Sempert & Krieghoff catalog. My post-war Neptun did, however, have such a feature, until I had it removed.

My 1939 Marholdt Waffen-Lexikon refers to "Schweinsrücken" in connection with telescopic sights, so that might be a possible explanation, although two of my pre-war drillings have scopes and straight combs.

Any chance the Schweinsrücken(Hog back) is related to the Schießstock usw. term in Gebrauchsmuster Nummer 134556 was from 3.03.1900?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

xausa,
Did you verify the barrel length yet? My old eyes may be failing me, but they look longer than 50cm, maybe 55; but look like 60 to me.BTW what is the caliber of the rifle?
Mike

Raimey,

I really don't know what you are referring to when you mention Gebrauchsmuster Nummer 134556 from 3.03.1900. Where can I find this description?

Herr Amerikaner

I have relied on the seller's representation that the barrel length is 50 cm (which seems awfully short), but I dredged up what little algebra I can remember after 57 years and applied it to the photographs, with mixed results. Assuming the length of pull of the stock is about 13.5 inches, then the barrels probably are 55 cm, as stated in the catalog. This is still three inches shorter than Churchill's famous XXV shotguns, one of which I once owned.

The rifle barrel caliber is 8X57IR, for which I am amply supplied with components. IF there is enough metal in the barrels to allow it, I would like to lengthen the shot chambers to 70mm. Otherwise, I will just have to draw on my limited supply of 2.5" ammunition.

xausa,
I would argue with 50 cm, but can't argue with your calculation. I'm a short barrel man anyway. There will be some argument about opening up the chambers, but it's your gun and I suspect it will be ok.
Mike

I emailed the seller and asked him for a definitive measurement of the barrel bundle.

Now that I think of it, if I ask my German gunsmith to open up the shot chambers to 70mm, the gun would probably have to be reproofed, and I don't want to go through that process.

Schießstock usw. is the extent of the term or definition.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Xausa,
There is no requirement in the US to have it reproofed. If you are leary of it, some people have long forcing cones cut and use 70mm shells anyway.It would still have 65mm chambers.
It's all up to you.
Mike

I just heard from the seller, who says that he subtracted 5 cm, which he attributes to the chamber length, from the overall length to arrive at the barrel length of 50 cm.

If that is his rationale, why he would not subtract 6.5 cm is a mystery to me. In any case, the barrels are 55 cm (22") long by my standards (and evidently Sempert & Krieghoff's, also).

Long forcing cones may affect performance with slugs, should you choose to use them. Drillings I have so modified have consistently shot 6" lower, for some reason. (perhaps decreased barrel time/barrel rise?) I am therefore going to modify permanently one reloader for short shells. Steve

Steve may be right, I never tried slugs in either of my drillings, I have insert barrels in the right barrels, so use shot in the left.
Mike

Xausa, I have read this topic and I have noticed this gun on offer at E-Gun. So my congratulations to the buyer, you are lucky to have the Herausnehmbares Schlosswerk because it was not available as standart. If a new owner wanted that option there was a surplus price of 25 R.M. (Reich Mark). If you have a Krieghoff catalog or a reprint it is mention on Page 42.
Marc.

GETTEMANS:

Thank you for your kind congratulations.

I do have a reprint of the catalog, and I am curious as to whether the drilling also is equipped with automatische Kugelschloßverriegelung (automatic rifle lock safety) which was another option for 9,--RM.

The drilling has been shipped to my German gunsmith in Suhl, but so far I have received no information as to its condition and whatever special features it may possess.

Well, I hope that you keep us updated about the auto rifle lock safety, I guess your drilling have it. You have made me curious.
Marc.

I got a report from my German gunsmith today:

Der Krieghoff Drilling ist eigentlich in einem guten Zustand. Die Schrotläufe haben innen einige leichte Beulen und der Kugellauf ist auch etwas rau.
Das Laufbündel ist außen ziemlich abgegriffen u. sollte evtl. neu brüniert werden. Der Verschluß könnte auch einen neuen Scharnierstift vertragen. Der Schaft ist natürlich auch, dem Alter entsprechend, leicht verbeult und zerkratzt.
Das Schloss und die Abzüge funktionieren einwandfrei. Ebenso die Verriegelung am Pistolgriffkäppche.

The Krieghoff drilling is actually in good condition. The shot barrels have a few dents and the rifle barrel is also rather rough. The barrel set is somewhat worn externally and could possibly need to be reblued. The action could use a new hinge pin. The stock is also somewhat dented and scratched, as might be expected with its age. The locks and the triggers function perfectly and the catch on the pistol grip cap as well.

The first sentence of the report appears to conflict with what follows, but I appreciate his frank appraisal. I will have to consider how much I want to spend on this project.

Xausa,
While your German gunsmith has it, I suggest you arrange for him to replace the hingepin(since the description said it is needed)and refit the barrels.
Mike

The latest report from Germany reveals that the drilling has both the hand detachable lock arrangement, and the automatic rifle lock safety, and that both function flawlessly.

Progress report: The barrels are to be reblued, the action color case hardened, and the hinge pin replaced. I expect to replace the scope when I receive it. I should think that a Leupold Vari X-III 1.75-6x32mm scope would be a good replacement for the Lisenfeld 2-7X variable, also with 32mm objective, presently mounted on it.

Lisenfeld is not a bad scope, I would check it good before replacement.

With kind regards,
Jani

I appreciate your comment. Until now, I have been unable to get any information on the scope's quality. Since it has internal windage adjustment, I assume it is a post-War product, but I don't know if the reticle increases in size with the increase in power, as was the case with early American variable power scopes, and German ones as well, or if the reticle is non-centered.

Do you have any further information about the scope and/or its maker?

I have no experince with Lisenfeld but found some scattered information mostly users' opinions online.

"The Lisenfeld Company was on the market from the beginning of 50s until end of 2004?. After the owner passed away it was sold to the company Docter." (Guns International)

"My .222 ... the scope I have on this rifle is a Lisenfeld 6x42 - nice clear German optics." (a British forum)

"Lisenfeld made really good scopes at the time they were in business." (another British forum)

"I have two Lisenfelds ... excellent optics..." (Airgun BBS)

On the other hand, jägers on German forums are not so enthusiastic... Nevertheless, most users say that they are useful daylight scopes but no good for night hunting.

With kind regards,
Jani

From reading comments on German web sites, it would appear that Lisenfeld made a quality product while the owner was alive, but after his death the firm was sold, and the name was used to market a line of inexpensive imported scopes. At one point the owner was using the trade name "Jaguar" and he got into a legal tussle with the British car maker over the use of the name.

The scope on this drilling does not look like a German scope. In particular the ring used for magnification adjustment just looks like one on a cheap imported scope. I hope I'm wrong. I bought the drilling on the assumption that the scope was junk. If it is not, then I have experienced a windfall.

No. DRGM # 134556 was for a Schießstock = shooting stick = cane gun, a walking stick with a built-in gun, peep sight and safety arrangement by a turning ring that blocked both the folding trigger, the striker and sight. The Word "Stock" is a stick. "Stock" in German is never used for a gunstock. A gunstock is a "Schaft" in German, a word of the same origin as the old English "shaft", the wooden handle of a spear.
DRPatent # 123902 (1901) covered Krieghoff's "scientific" procedure to calculate the "ideal" gunstock dimensions from body measurements of the customer, calculating from height, arm length, cheekbone, shoulder, neck, chest, shoulder to eye dimensions. A hogback stock is not mentioned here, though it may be a result of such calculations.
BTW I too believe in a postwar, 1960-70s, restocking job because of the shape of that hogback stock and that silly white-line spacer under the pistol grip cap. Such useless spacers became fashionable in Germany in the late 1960s only, together with "Scottish" skip-line checkering. These adornments were influenced by the "California style" Weatherby stocks then made by Sauer & Sohn, Eckernförde. It was the same time when cars had lots of useless chrome, shark fins and white-sided tires.

[quote=kuduae
DRPatent # 123902 (1901) covered Krieghoff's "scientific" procedure to calculate the "ideal" gunstock dimensions from body measurements of the customer, calculating from height, arm length, cheekbone, shoulder, neck, chest, shoulder to eye dimensions. A hogback stock is not mentioned here, though it may be a result of such calculations.
[/quote]

This is the Krieghoff stock measuring system, taken from a 1970's Krieghoff catalog.

xausa,

there is another drilling like yours on egun:

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4483915

but this time the seller knows about the detechable locks... ;-)

Regards,
Gunwolf

Schweinsrücken (hogback) stock, but no white spacers!

Do you suppose the owner is a DGS reader?

It will be interesting to see how much this one goes for.

No, not really. I like this old Drilling, all the blued metall scratched away by carrying for years in the woods hanging on the shoulder of probably a forester in his Loden Coat.

Kind Regards,
Gunwolf

Here is a link to a similar one we have for sale that is available here in the States. It is a very nice all original drilling.
http://members.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?gun_id=100351447&pop_up=1

Similar only, as it does not feature the hand-detacheable Blitz lockwork. Much overpriced by German standards.

Nice buttstock and original Sempert & Krieghoff Aufschubmontage bases, two features I envy for my S&K Neptun. I have found someone in Germany who is willing and able to fabricate the rings for the scope mount.

That Drilling on EGUN
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=4483915
went for Euro 600.-, about US$ 780.- + s&h, no "buyer's premium".

I had one like that with the same drop action. Mine had a Dural receiver and probably the same short barrels. I took the works out about three times and worried each time that I wouldn't get it back together. I sold it and bought a prewar conventional drilling with Blitz action.

Be my luck to have it open while hunting and spill it all on the ground...Steve