Stalking rifle? It's a falling block but stocked like a sporter, not sure of the caliber, didn't get a close enough look.






Barrel address looks like A. LOESCHE, HOFBUCHSENMACHER, MAGDEBURG.



The top of the receiver has LOESCHES PANZERBUCHSE. PANZERBUCHSE translates, according to Wikipedia, as Tank Hunting rifle. Big Game?



Neat rear sight.




Grip safety?

Most probably this is a rifle intended for hunters, for practising at targets and also for competitions.
The base for a peep sight and the adjustable (and detachable ?)rear sight hint that direction.
Most probably the cartridge will be 8.15x46R. Relatively cheap, components for reloading available, and also suitable for hunting, up to roe deer.
But any other cartridge might be possible, between 5.6x52R (.22 Savage), 8x57 IR, even 9x57R or 9.3x72R.

The first meaning of "Panzer" is "armour", I guess this is marketing to indicate an extra strong action, opposed to break-actions.

Regards,
Fuhrmann

Thanks Fuhrman,

Where's the peep sight base?

thanks, Rob

Rob,

the rounded block on top of the tang will be the base for an adjustable and detachable peep sight - these sights often are missing nowadays. It makes sense that the normal rear sight is also detachable, either this or the peep is used.
In front of the peep sight base I see something which may be a safety switch. Such rifles often came without any safety - no need for safeties on the target range. Presence of a safety should indicate intentions to take the piece to hunting.
I have never seen a spring-loaded trigger guard / loading lever like this. I think this is intended to hold the lever firmly in place; and it should not be part of a safety.

Regards,
Fuhrmann

Thank you again. Are you familiar with Loesches? Would that have built the entire gun or sourced the action from elswhere?

Rob,

my knowledge is quite superficial.
I have no detail information on the business of Loesche or others.
But there are some gentlemen here in this forum who are very knowledgeable!
But they will ask for proofmarks etc.
My guess is that certainly the action and probably the whole gun was sourced in Suhl or in Zella-Mehlis.

Regards,
Fuhrmann

I think Fuhrmann to be correct on all accounts and the Zella Sankt Blasii/Mehlis sourced target/sporting weapon possibly being some Bushel variant along the lines of a pirschbuchse was peddled by Waffen Losche of Berlin/Hannover/Magdeburg with firearms merchant Adolf Loesche at the helm. The concern looks to have been a source for fixed blade weapons & I wonder if they conspired with Heinrich Scherping, or vice versa, on the subject.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey,



Hi Raimey,

Well, I don’t think so. Loesche and Scherping were competitors and they were doing business in Hannover in 1930 in different shops:



Info comes from a book “Das jagdliche Schießen” issued by the ADJV in 1930. In the annex is a list of German gun dealers being members of the “Reichsverband Deutscher Büchsenmacher, Waffen- un d Munitionshändler e. V.”

Best regards

Martin

Here we have it:



From the 1911 ALFA catalog, Adolf Frank Export Gesellschaft

Regards,
Fuhrmann

There is a similar rifle in De Hass's book Single Shot Rifles and Actions. Is this rifle a center fire or 22rf? Germany must have been a hotbed of single shot rifles years ago, I've seen lots of different ideas based on falling and swinging block types.

These rifles were commonly called "Keilerbüchsen" as they were used on the running boar target. they are essentially target rifles, most often in 8.15x46R, but stocked like stalking rifles to conform to the rules of the Allgemeine Deutsche Jagdschutzverband, ADJV, the German hunters association. These rules prohibited several features of the Schuetzen target rifles, like peepsights, crescent butt plates, exaggerated combs and so on for use in hunter's matches. Many Keilerbüchsen, like this one, were set up with both peep- and open sights so that they could be used in Schuetzen matches too.
As the 8.15x46R was commonly reloaded with pre-packed powder charges offered by several powder companies and lead bullets, it was the cheapest centerfire to shoot for training and matches.
The action of this Loesche retailed rifle is a Frohn "Stabil" action, see Tom Rowe's book "Alte Scheibenwaffen Vol.2", pages 22-27.
Adolph Frohn, 1839 - 1914, Stadelstr.20, Suhl, invented several falling block actions and is also credited with the design of the 8.15x46R cartridge, also called the "Frohnpatrone". this became virtually the standard cartridge for both Schuetzen and hunter's match shooting. Frohn's shop was continued after 1914 to about 1930 by his son in law, Adolf Reinhaeckel.
As the Loesches were more retailers than makers, they certainly bought in this rifle from Frohn, Suhl. Only a photo of the proofmarks under the barrel may tell us more about the dating.
An Adolf Loesche opened his shop at Koelner Str.13, Magdeburg, in 1873. Son Gustav Loesche took over in 1905. In 1916 Waffen-Loesche, Magdeburg is listed at Wilhelmstr.13 (street renamed?). In 1916 he bought the remains of the bankrupt Stendebach&Co, Suhl. He closed this Suhl branch in 1926. His branch in Berlin is documented post-WW1 only, 1925-1941.
The Adolf Loesche, Grosse Packhofstr 21, Hannover branch was opened in 1919, together with A.Helmuthauser.

Don't know who ole JohnAden might be and he may be a China-man passing secrets thru the DGS BBS port. Anyway, nice bit of bird-doggin' Axel in gleaning the info on the Frohn action. I'd like to see the marks to see if indeed it was actually made in Suhl. Also I'd like to know more about the Helmuthauser family of craftsmen.

Martin:
Considering that firearms merchant Loesche & Scherping had similar motifs on sporting weapons and as you note were in business in the same location. And that Scherping was the concern that peddled the specialty model Waidblatt designed by artist and hunter Friedrich Karl Lippert under Patent #1393684 registered 3/12/1936, which seems to be after the death of both Eckenbrecht boys. They seem to have similar business models and I wouldn't think that Friedrich Karl Lippert would just sidle in the shop of the heirs Scherping & Eckenbrecht and convince them to peddle his very expensive Waidblatt without some basis for the venture. Considering that Loesche had success in peddling fixed blade weapons, I would think that the Scherping shop consulted with other retailers before agreeing to the deal, which netted a very, very low number of examples. I don't know if 1 or 2 were made at first then the rest were ordered as need be or what. M-4 is an authority on this and more than likely has some insight.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey is correct in that both Scherping and Loesche were considered upper rung HofBuchsenmachers in the Hannover area and their Firearms exhibit a similar artistic flair to them but with the death of Heinrich Scherping in 1913 and with the Brothers Eckebrecht at the helm and continuing the busisiness as late as 1937. Now it appears that the 2 brothers expired within a year of each other around 1928-29 and am not quite sure of who was in charge of the shop from 29 to 1937. It does seem odd for Lippert to contract his special Waidblatt purchase from the Scherping shop as is so marked on the blade as these are the only knives seen to date carrying the Scherping name. Not sure exactly how many were made (reportedly 13)I have seen 4 or 5 to date & I have 1 as well as one of the 200 replica's made by Willi Ulrich of Solingen. The advertisement from Wild & Hund 1937 listed the retail price at 45 RM & that was more than the cost of a high end officers Dress dagger at the time. As Raimey has pointed out it does seem odd that Lippert chose the Scherping shop over Loesche as other examples of edged weapons have been noted as coming from the Loesche shop but no others have surfaced bearing the Scherping name, may have been due to Scherpings clientel list??

Best Regards,
m-4

Gentlemen,
I made the original post in this thread over 7 years ago, I saw the gun at a clients house but they weren't interested in selling. I got a call Friday that they were interested so I was able to get more pictures.

Here's the proofmarks from under the forend (which is a wedge setup).

6050 is the serial number, matches forend wood, does the 9.12 mean a build of Sept, 1912? Does 587 help determine the cartridge?






Anything here to determine caliber?



This AW was by the wedge lug...





The top of the tang showing the sight receptacle and safety






thanks,

Rob

See the first one

https://www.google.com/search?client=fir...DCAo&uact=5

Recoil:

The 9.12 is of course Z-M's September 1912 being Nr. 587 for the month of September. It looks like the mm bore designation is just above the >>9.12<< and is 7,6mm?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Looked it with a loupe, might be a "6", might not, that slanted line doesn't look like a completed 7 at all.

Why would everything be stamped so deep except the caliber?
May have to slug and cast.

Skeets, nice list, thank you, but how would it determine cartidge from proof marks?

Here's a doctored image...

Recoil Rob,
While tight, 7.6 bore( not groove or bullet) diameter is often found in 8.15x46R rifles. I believe the number is a "6". I agree that the light strike of the bore diameter is highly unusual. The 1912 date is close to the time the proof marks changed. We sometimes see strange things done during the transition period. Maybe they were trying to adapt an old number stamp set- maybe something else. You can't really determine the cartridge from proof marks until the 1939 law that required showing the common name was implemented. You can make very good guesses in most cases however. The DWM case numbers in most cases ID the name of the cartridge but are not the same as proof marks.
Mike

May be a while but I'll have to cast the chamber and slug the bore.


thanks Mike,

Rob

Rob,
I would never say not to slug the barrel and/or make a chamber cast of any rifle. However, Axel's assessment is always well founded and I believe the rifle is chambered for 8.15x46R. Also I believe the groove diameter will be found to be .311-.313". We do, sometimes, see 8.15x46R chambers that have been extended to 8.15x52R or sometimes 32 Win. Spec. Firing a moderately loaded 8.15x46R in the rifle would likely be safe and would tell the tale as to the chamber. Slugging the barrel would be necessary to find the groove diameter. With the likely tight barrel, the fired case would be useful in deciding which bullet to use. The commercial jacketed bullet is shown as .324", this diameter is across a "stop ring", however, and the bullet is designed to be safe in various diameter barrels. Most people use cast bullets around .318-.319" diameter. Which ever diameter bullet will slip into the above fired case can be used in the rifle, despite having a tight barrel.
Mike