Hello,

I've been trying to find out something about this double barrel left to me by my Grandfather. It's a beautiful old gun with a double hinge design. I would love to get an estimate on the age and the value. Thank you in advance for your help.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77088979@N ... 408862155/

If you have anymore questions please feel free to ask.

Bad link, try this one.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77088979@N07/sets/72157629408862155/

There's a Engelbert Clever Nachfolger(Successor) thread here: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=260927&page=1 . The successor(I'd guess a son-in-law or it could be someone that purchased the firm) sourced the Belgian craftsmen of Liege for this Herold example, which is Franz Jaeger's patent. He was a firearms merchant and peddled some interesting and unique sporting arms. Maybe PeteM can narrow the date with the diameters but I'd guess after 1910 and before 1922. It has the Record trademark on the butt which goes to some Franz Jaeger-Scholberg collaboration. Note the S&D(Scholbert & Delheid(?)) monogram/trademark on the hinge pin.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A couple of adverts that I stumbled across for you Engelbert Clever Köln am Rhein fans:


1891 Advert



1892 Advert


1893 Advert


1893 Advert


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I read that the successors were taken over by Eduard Kettner in 1912 but I've seen an ad with the Clever name that was supposedly from 1914. I hope that clears things up. Axel says that F. Jaeger was not particularly diligent in defending the "Rekord" patent and it was often copied. Maybe he wasn't diligent in defending his trade mark either.
Fred

Friar Fred of Utah, I had suspected that Eduard Kettner just might had absorbed Engelbert Clever as period publications had adverts on each possibly on the same page. Also I don't recall there being a firearms merchant's name as being the successor, just the successor term.

I haven't really looked but are their addresses similar?





Eduard Kettner advert from 1892.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

From what I can gather, the Nachfolger was a gent named Hommelsheim, a master gun maker, who, on New Year's Day of 1913 gave the business over to Kettner but operated it afterwards as a branch of Ed. Kettner. The addresses I have are not the same. If my German were better, I could tell you more.
Fred

Friar Fred, since you seem to be the fount of information tonight, have you seen any retailed examples by the following firearms merchants:


Albert Richter Gewehrfabrik of Cottbus
Drilling Patent holder 29404 of 1884



H. Götz Berlin
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post255970


C. Krümmel established 1853


Nicolaus Knoll & Company Berlin


Oscar Winter Hannover

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The fount is a bit dry in this regard. Sorry.

Franz Jäger's adverts give that his was a 10 point lockup and he lists his sales outlets in this 1907/1908 advert and Engelbert Clever is listed as having a successor.





But a a similar period article on the Verschluß der Rekordgewehr gives that it has a 20(friction surfaces) point lockup and is manufactured in Liege by Scholberg & Delheid and adverts for it thru Thieme & Schlegelmilch and those of Franz Jäger are either found on adjacent pages or possibly on the same page.



With Engelbert Clever's successor being a sales outlet for Franz Jäger and having Belgian proofs I wonder if Franz Jäger didn't source the work to Liege or have some business relationship with Scholberg & Delheid.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

First, "Record" was not a trademark of Franz Jaeger, but of Paul Scholberg, Liege. The relations between F.Jaeger and Paul Scholberg are rather entangled. The key man here seems to be a Carl Bittiner.The Jaeger-Simson action, patented by Jaeger 1904, DRP 176578, was not only made by Franz Jaeger himself and , under Jaeger licence, by Simson, but the same action was also made and exported by Paul Scholberg, Rue Morinval 24, Liege, Belgium, without ever being sued or objected by Franz Jaeger. No licence arrangement is known. This is what I found out from various sources: When Franz Jaeger worked in the USA from 1898 - 1902, his business adress was "The Gun Improvement Company, Bittiner & Jaeger, Broadway 234-235, New York". The Bittiner of B&J was Carl Bittiner who settled in Liege after their American adventure. In 1907 Bittiner's Liege adress is also listed at rue Morinval 24, same as Paul Scholberg! In 1907 Bittiner even patented an improvement of this action, DRP 201505, the rear of the barrel lumps going into recesses in the action bar. So the entire idea of the "Simson-Jaeger" action may have been a "joint venture" of Franz Jaeger and Carl Bittiner, with an agreement that both patent it in germany and Belgium respectively. In 1910 Jaeger again patented a similar arrangement with sidplates to the same effect, DRP 229531. So who really invented what of the Jaeger-Simson-Bittiner-Scholberg action remains a mystery, probably unsolvable now. Because of this hodgepodge of patents Franz Jäger did not bother to defend his own at the time of WW1. At least the 1910 Jaeger patent expired in 1930, so from then on it was in the public domain. Several Zella-Mehlis makers made guns for the trade, copiing this action.

Interesting tid-bit of info there Axel. I didn't say Rekord was a Franz Jäger trademark nor did I intend to infer it. Considering the examples we have, I don't think Franz Jäger had to worry about the patent infringement as he had the best of both worlds and was laughing all the way to the bank. He could get his a Belgian version of his Herold example at a cheaper price and then forward it on to one of his satellite sales outlet. I do wonder how the Herold, Simson - Jäger, Rekord and those without a name compare.






doubletrouble can you tell us what initials are encircled beside the numbers?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And they may have all copied Gustav Bittner of Weipert patented design of circa 1893:




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Seems that Clever has his model numbers on the left-hand-side but it will take some effort to wade thru the Old German font.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I don't think the numbers to be model designations. As the descriptions seem to be of individual guns Clever had in stock at that time, they are more likely Clever's stock numbers.
As you mentioned Gustav Bittner's design with the locking bites in the dual lumps (other than the Jaeger/Bittiner/Scholberg designs), don't forget to mention the older British designs similar to Bittner's: The George Jeffries of Norwich patent #3442 of 1874 and the Smith,Townsend & Williams #2778 of 1858. Both feature double underlumps with the bites in the lumps.

Thanks Axel for the correction and noting the contribution from the fellas on the little British Isles. I'm going to see if I can locate Gustav Bittner of Weipert's patent.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yup, those are Clever's stock numbers, not a model number. A lot of damascus barrels and he identifies the types of damascus.

Interesting advertisement, not unlike stuff we see today from any number of gunshops.

Like H. Scherping and other weapons handlers, Engelbert Clever had a cult like following of his wares and they described him as a hunting haberdasher as well as a top shot(2nd tier?) - Jagdutensilien Händler und Meisterschütze(zweiter) . He holds some sort of patent #3965 from December 28th, 1891 while located at Comödienstraße 3. And it appears by the adverts that by at least 1907/1908 he had passed the concern on to a successor. He too, or his clients, seemed to cotton to the eccentric breech of that of Collath.




Like to see the stamps on this one.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=290373142


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Possibly I need to review the patent associated with the trademark Herold as I thought it was connected to the exterior lugs/lumps:


L. Ernst Evertz of Duren retailed sporting arm.






Interesting tube maker's stamp or Birmingham proof Crown over BV?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=290357285

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

While this one retailed by Emil Schwarte Hamborn am Rhein has the Herold and registered trademark stamp:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=289463234




Herold and registered trademark stamp




With tube steel sourced from Heinrich Ehrhardt.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, may I draw your attention to the fact that "Herold" was Franz Jaeger's general trademark. It's use was not limited to a single desin, but Jaeger made and sold conventional break-open guns, drillings, single-shot rifles and even repeating rifles bearing his "Herold" trademark also.

Draw away Axel, but I'm yet to find the "Herold" term as a telegraph or telephone reference or filed trademark. Also, I don't see it in the turn of the 20th century adverts. It was 1903 or prior to 1903 when Carl Bittiner, of the firm of Bittiner & Jaeger, returned to Suhl to partner with Franz Jäger under the name F. Jäger & Company Suhl.









Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Sorry, Raimey, but your last post is completely wrong, from start to stop. Have a look at the 1910/11 catalog of F.Jäger & Co., reprint available from the GGCA bookstore, order # R013,
http://germanguns.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=16
On the top left of the cover you may read: "Herold" / Eingetragene Schutzmarke. If this is not to be translated to "registered trademark", my German is even worse than my English. Further down in the same column you read: Telegramm-Adresse HEROLD-SUHL. For example on page 32 you find the "Herold-Büchse", a single barrel break open stalking rifle.
Carl Bittiner did not return, if he ever had been there, to Suhl and he was not a partner in the F.Jäger & Co. company. He staied in Liege. According to the book by Gadisseur & Druart: "Le Qui est Qui de l'Armurerie liegeoise" he returned from New York to Liege in 1902. His Liege addresses were:
1904-1905 rue des Premontres 28, 1906 rue Vivegnis and in 1907 rue Morinval 24. Rue Morinval 24 was the address of Paul Scholberg, holder of the "Record" trademark.
According to H.J. Fritze's book: "Suhl - Heimat der Büchsenmacher" Franz Jaeger returned to Europe in 1902, first to Liege also, but in 1903 he settled in Suhl. From 1907 on he took in a business partner with some money, a pharmacist from Jena named Ewald Lüdecke. This is the "Co." in Franz Jaeger & Co.

I'll capitulate on the telegram address and possibly the trademark as the 1910/1911 advert eluded me for a time and it maybe that he filed for the trademark after returning from the U.S. of A. as the adverts/info posted was pre-1907/1908 as with anything the info is time dependent. But a couple of American publications in 1902/1903 give that BOTH Bittiner & Jäger were enroute to Suhl after Franz Jäger could not acquire the mechanics to build his single trigger so he turned to the talented pool in Suhl. Since both were in American, I deem the American sources more credible on the whereabouts of Bittiner & Jäger for now. Hopefully additional info will develop the rest of the story.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Schoverling & Welles were agents of Franz E. Jäger and I'm sure played a part. I wonder what contribution Edmund Bittiner made to the overall effort?


http://www.google.com/patents?id=bxFpAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false

Forest & Stream, October 1903 notes that Carl Bittiner is to travel to Suhl in the coming months. He may have changed his travel plans?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And Axel surely the Austrian patent office didn't have the wrong address as in this 1905 publication of their patent 9862 it gives NY for both parties, although it could have taken a year or so to compile.



http://books.google.com/books?id=k9pOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA868&dq=bittiner+%26+j%C3%A4ger+new++york&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hjPhT_r7HYr48gSM7M2WDQ&ved=0CF8Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=bittiner%20%26%20j%C3%A4ger%20new%20%20york&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Interesting that a 1901/1902 joint German patent #130206 gives Franz Jäger as residing in Rampitz b/ Kötzschau while Carl Bittiner is still of New York.

http://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=DE000000130206A

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Rampitz is the birthplace of Franz Jaeger. His father, also Franz, and his mother, born Kersten and sister of Gustav Kersten, still lived there as small farmers and innkeepers. Franz Jaeger preferred to give a German adress when applying for this DRP, so he chose his home village.
BTW, on things that happened in America I believe in American sources, on matters that happened in Europe European ones. In this case American sources merely state that Bittiner and Jaeger left America in 1902, direction Suhl in Europe. Official European sources say Bittiner never got to Suhl, but had adresses as a registered gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, from 1904 to 1907 at least. European and family sources say Franz Jaeger first went to Liege too, but in 1903 opened a small shop in Suhl on Mühlhügel, where his daughter Selma, mother of Dietrich Apel, was born Nov.9, 1904. At the same time, 1904, he moved to a better house at Schleusinger Strasse 19. In May 1907 Franz Jaeger together with Lüdecke registered "Franz Jaeger & Co.", trademark "Nimrod", and built a factory at Pfiffergrube 17. At the same time Carl Bittiner in Liege had moved to Paul Scholberg's adress.

Excellent digging there Axel as you seem to have found the missing pieces. With Franz Jäger's uncle being Gustav Kersten solves some mysteries. I'm a bit puzzled by the trademark Nimrod of Franz Jäger & chemist Ewald Lüdecke though as I thought that to be of Thieme & Schlegelmilch?



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Anyone know how this Simson Verschluss stamp reads on this Max G. Fischer?

Simson ?????

Verschluß

Jaeger Patent?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Carl Halbach Aachen, Waffenhandlung

Heinrich Münch Aachen, Büchsenmacher

Max G. Fischer Berlin, Gewehrfabrik, Prinz Albrechtstraße(1?)

W. Hamacher Düsseldorf, Waffenhandlung

August Rickelt Dortmund, Büchsenmacher

Wilhelm Lorenzen Flessburg, Waffenhandlung

W. Tornau Halle am Salle Büchsenmacher

Engelbert Clever Nachfolger Köln am. Rhein Waffenhandlung

August Lüneburg Kiel, Waffenhandlung

Karl Körmes Leipzig, Waffenhandlung

D.(Daniel) A. Nohascheck, Hoflieferant(& Hofschwerteger?/ Schwertfegen Meister ) Mainz

Adolf Loesche Hoflieferant Magdeburg

Gustav Günther Metz, Büchsenmacher

Josef Dahl Osnabrück, Büchsenmacher

Hermann Eichhorn Rustock, HofBüchsenmacher

J. Vogel Strassburg, Büchsenmacher

I think I've spelled the outlets listed in Franz Jäger's 1908 advert correctly.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

O.G. Scherell Berlin Potsdamerstraße 104 & Delitzsch

J.C. Stahl & Sohn Hamburg

The above were added in a little later advert.

Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse

J. Novotny isn't listed as a F. Jäger and I would assume he sourced directly to Liege and with the Record on the floorplate, it all seems to ring true. Thanks to M-4 for bringing this 1910 J. Novonty peddled examples to my attention.
Cabelas #2202434 - Hammond, Indiana

With the Jen Pro Broky and Prague Nitro proof, I wonder if it was finished in Prague by Novotny's mechanics or if the Nitro proof exposure was required? Also there is a slight difference in the Belgian stamped weight of 1437.3g and the Prague stamped weight of 1433g. Maybe their scales weren't synchronized.












Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Seems there was a DRGM associated with the Simson - Jaeger Verschluß?




The lockup was also peddled in a hammer version


Piethe und Didczuhn - Rastenburg


Piethe und Didczuhn - Rastenburg




August Lüneburg - Kiel


August Lüneburg - Kiel

Note the Cat eyes atop the frame M-4.


August Lüneburg - Kiel
The mechanics initials GG seem to be a constant on these F. Jäger sporting weapons, GG, encircled GG, jagged encircled GG.


Kind Regards,

Raimey

L. Fortenbach of München a find by The American on Auction Arms: http://classic.gunauction.com/buy/111903...an-sxs-engraved














Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey,

I can help you finally....that lock-up system is just like on mine, and Ironically there is a article in the same journal which I wrote you about regarding the Steigele.

That lock up system I believe is exactly the one I read about last nite, after emailing you.

It is called a Hercules system. Hercules originallt got the patent for it, It was suppose to be the strongest lock-up system. I will email you that article when I scan the German Gun Collectors article for you.

I am a member, but do not know about permissions to reprint it on the internet, but I can send it to you directly to read it...

Kurt

Raimey,

What were your comments on my L. Fortenbach. Munchen
that I bought?

I just liked the looks of it and the different style of the lock up between the barrels and the breech.

Kurt

Hi Raimey,

What were your thoughts and comments on that L. Fortenbach. Munchen, which I bought because I never saw that type of barrel to breech system?

Hope you are well....

Sincerely
Kurt

Axel, you have a typo here and the DRP is 229521 for 23rd December, 1910, a 1910 Christmas present?

So from the patents:

Austrian Patent 9862 - 1900/1902

DRP 176578 - 1904 - Original Patent
DRP 201505 - 1907 - Bittiner's Improvement w/out frame sides
DRP 229521 - 1910 - Jäger's Improvement with screw on left/right side

We may be able to narrow the date range of manufacture & patent enforcement.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Kurt, your acquisition with the high serial number may have been sourced from Jäger or Simson but I'm curious if it has the removable screw on the right side of the hingepin? Also are there any additional marks near the lower rib on the underside of the tubes, specifically an encircled GG? I would venture a guess of a manufacture date in Suhl post WWI & pre-1923.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Piethe und Didczuhn - Rastenburg




August Lüneburg - Kiel

I'm going to make a stab that the above are on Jäger/Bittiner DRP 176578 of 1904 and don't have the advancements of the 1910 design with removable right screw on hingepin under DRP 229521.




J. Novotny retailed Bittiner design under DRP 201505. So indeed the Rekord design under DRP differs in some manner from the original and I would assume the slight difference allowed Carl Bittiner, and possibly Edmund Bittiner to market the model. It may be as stated that it has 20 friction points while the original had less.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Some encircled H or HK, something on the tubes on the L. Fortenbach of München.





I'm curious if the mark has a Belgian origin:





Rotated image


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Let me add Gebrüder Oette Hamburg to the list of Franz Jäger retail outlets. This example was sourced from ZM and looks to have a long water table.






Proof date of Oct. 1910 but remember the ZM proof rule change date is given as Sept. 1st, 1911 but sporting weapons were experiencing the modified proof earlier as well as post 1911 examples wear pre-1911 stamps.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Haven't been able to sort it but it seems that Carl Bittiner filed for the Record trademark as it applies to doubles 06.15.1905 while the Boys at Scholberg filed for Record Acier Special on 04.30.1910?

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20g/a%20gosuin%20pierre%20gb.htm
Pierre Gosuin later E. Leruite


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'm sure B. Humblet was being sourced for springs and buttplates by Paul Scholberg. He may not have been the only game in town but I'm sure he sold more than his fair share of components.


1928 Advert




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I had posted the following advert prior but really didn't take note of the advertising where Jaeger asks the hunters to consider home-grown sporting weapons.




Für den deutscher jäger besteht somit kein grund, warum er nicht dem deutschen Erzeugnis den Vorzug geben sollte.

Bezugsquellen für unsere Fabrikate: Fast alle besseren deutschen und zahlreiche ausländische Waffenhandlungen. We nicht vortreten, wende sich direkt an uns, Preislisten umsonst und portofrei.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Interesting Englebert Clever hammer DR with Schilling forge tube marks as well as a G/C, which I seem to remember but can't place it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Gebrauchsmuster/D.R.G.M. 59,171 - Einsatzhülse zur Verengung des Gewehrlaufendes Engelbert Clever, Köln, Komödienstrasse, 3. 18.05.1896

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse