now that we are trying to be nice to each other, lets see how far I get with this thread before it blows up in my face.

first, some like erm. some don't.

second, some colors are applied as a by product of heat treating. some colors are applied via a chemical process that does not require enough heat to change the original factory heat treatment of the metal.

third, of those who like receiver case colors, some don't care how the colors are applied; and some, particularly here, insist that the only acceptable method of applying receiver case colors is via a high heat process, that necessitates re heat treating of the receiver metal.

fourth, over the years, I have sold many guns with receivers that have had their case colors replaced. some via the high heat method. some via the low heat method. interestingly, none of my customers have ever complained about the receiver case colors on their new gun. seems like they are happy with the way it looks and really don't care how the colors were applied.

your thoughtful and gentlemanly responses would be appreciated.

ed when you first started posting here you or your gun mechanic were using a high heat acetylene torch method. There were birdseyes and many other tell-tales. You probably harmed the case hardening of the doubles that were done that way. Drew Hause has pictures of your torched colors on his website.

After your first big battle here over case colors you (or your gun mechanic) switched to what is essentially the Ithaca/Perazzi method with low heat by torch and a chemical application. I think that that method does not harm the case hardening. No harm, no foul in my opinion.

I agree with you that the the bone charcoal method may cause warpage of the action. But a competent gunsmith can put it back right.

I wouldn't have a gun case colored by either the chemical/low heat or the bone charcoal method. I would leave it as is. I would never, ever, ever harden one with just an acetylene torch the way you (or your gunsmith) used to do it.

mike: I do not know the exact methods utilized by the many practitioner of re case coloring. some redone receivers I have seen do have birds eye patterns as you suggest. but, exactly how those patterns were applied is beyond my knowledge. as to damage of receivers due to recoloring, so far I have yet to have a complaint regarding a damaged receiver, regardless of the method utilized. so, from my perspective it is a mute point. so long as my customers are happy, I am happy.

and to respond to your accusation above, I do no gunsmithing of any kind. I neither have the patience nor the skills required to do such work.

Does beating a dead horse over and over come under the heading of childish behavior?

And it is "moot point", ed. Most of us wish you would make mute points.



BOOM!

Was not an accusation. Just covering all possibilities.

It was obvious from the pictures which method was used.

In the event that the unknowing might do a search for 'Receiver Case Colors'

NID factory colors



"RECEIVER HAS BEEN RECOLORED AND NOW APPEARS SIMILAR TO ORIGINAL ITHACA FACTORY COLORS"



More images here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/12588446

BOOM again, and +100 Drew.

But who wouldn't want a gun that looks like a bad LSD trip???

Thanks Drew!

This receiver was done with acetylene torch. No doubt the case hardening was damaged:



ed's guns are now done with Ithaca / Perazzi low temp torch and chemical:


Does anybody remember the chemical? Does iodine sound right? Cold blue?

ed, your guns have all the beauty of a pool of fresh rain water with a liberal application of diesel fuel on the surface.

Excellent point, why all the drivel about high heat damage.

Sure it's generally about the appearance. For me, I would tend to 1) leave it alone 2) try to have it redone period/maker correct, or 3) well done bone pack colors, 4) torch colors, for me why bother. Doesn't add any material property enhancement, and doesn't look right. Bad lip stick, generally on a pig, I suppose very well does look better to some folks.

There're some really nice cyanide colors, but not my general preference. To my eye, pack coloring well done with one of the endless bone recipes is the cats meow. Like a broken record, not a one peep about over heating anything. I think you hit some price point bling appeal.

Maybe, try putting up a gun for sale at the price that includes the margin for torching. Someone may appreciate it for being unmolested and you stick more cash in your pocket. You could always torch it later and relist it, if needed.

Thumbs up, Joel.

SRH

drew: the two nid guns you show for comparison are not quite correct for comparison purposes. the first gun you show is an early nid with cocking indicators. the other gun you show is a late nid without cocking indicators. the original case colors on the early and late nid's are not necessarily the same. as I recall the later guns had more green colors.

maybe someone could post pictures of a late nid with known factory case colors for comparison to the late nid shown here. also, it has been my experience that camera flash often distorts true case colors, so it is hard to make accurate comparisons from flash images.

a google search for Ithaca nid revealed images of a 1935 vintage nid with what appear to be original case colors, with lots of green color, not usually observed in the earlier guns.

Ed, tell you how it is- I gave it some thought, and as I am nowhere near being a Gentleman, as us shanty Mick Irish are- "To the manure born" and not "To the Manor born" as are proper gentleman- I am going to abstain. My 55 plus years in the welding trade, I have used oxy-acetylene torches (mainly Victor) with "rosebud" tips to heat fabrication and lower alloyed carbon steels to bend or shape or form, much as a blacksmith might use his coal forge with the oxygen bellows to do the same, but I have never been asked to apply the 6000 degree neutral flame (or 5600 degree carburizing flame) as taken at the tip of the cone to ANY gun receiver--guess I was never in the right place at the right time for that- You might be in a bit of "Deep Kimshee" here, my friend, trying to re-instate yourself, perhaps walking away from this "Hot topic" may have been, in retrospect, the wiser move-- Who can say???

mike: what is your motive in covering all bases here?

and what appears obvious to you, is only your assumption, which may or may not be valid. so much of what has been discussed here about this subject is based on assumptions without any foundation in known fact...

expressing ones opinion is one thing. claiming something to be without any factual proof is quite again something else.

jrb: you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as are we all.

foxie: your knowledge of metal working is beyond mine.

however, without factual proof of what appears to be, you like anyone else can only make an assumption based upon what you see.

wheather a torch was involved in recoloring some of the receivers pictured here, is beyond my knowledge, as I was not present when the work was done. and quite frankly, I don't care how the work was done, so long as it does not cause a problem with the gun that it comes back to me... so far, so good. which means, that any receiver that I have had re colored, regardless of the method used, seems to be holding up pretty well. I mean, seven years, plus is a long time.

and, I have not paid to have a shotgun receiver recolored via any method, since 2007, when the economy went south and it no longer made economic sense to put much money into guns to make them more sellable.

craig: it has been several years, like maybe 10, since I last saw a cracked shotgun receiver, that could be traced to incorrect re heat treatment...I must assume that the novice practitioners have given up and no longer attempt the work...or maybe they learned what to do and what not to do.

Durn hit. Ya nose what they say about assumptions. Some guy named ed will stop by and make one.

Well, so much for being nice.

Ed you are full of shit.

craig: one of my favorite sayings is:

"my mind is made up.
don't confuse me with the facts."

You asked for our "thoughtful and gentlemanly responses" so I gave you mine. Now you're miffed.

jrb: not miffed at all. glad you decided to participate.

Ed, I know you realize the people giving you negative reviews of your "case color" jobs are people with knowledge of what proper case colors look like and people who actually are buying guns. I know you sell guns but wouldn't you rather not appeal to the bottom feeders and sell to those who actually know their guns? You've sold some guns after "restoring" them that would have been more profitable just left alone. I know you are not a dummy and think you are just stubborn and refuse to admit you have made some errors in judgement. You don't have to make any amends but please stop wasting time and money messin" with guns that don't need it.It is not shameful to realize a mistake and to start doing right.I know your idol,Abe Lincoln, would have done the right thing if given another chance.

rhd: I respect the opinion of most here regarding this subject. I particularly respect those here who back up their opinion with facts. however, my attitude about what is proper is determined by the marketplace and not by members of this forum.. try looking at it this way, from a business perspective:

if a product can be sold for a reasonable profit as is, then its a no brainer. sell it and move on to the next job.

if money has to be spent to enhance an item to make it sellable, then the least expense enhancement is the right choice, so long as it meets sales objectives.

my knowledge of the cost of recoloring shotgun receivers is somewhat dated, as I have not paid for any of that work since 2007. back then, the cost of low heat vs high heat recoloring was about half as much. plus, the risks of receiver damage via the high heat method were substantial and quite frankly, not worth the risk. back then, I found that guns with high heat recolored receivers were actually a hard sell, due to the concerns of knowledgeable customers about the reliability of the receiver metal, if incorrectly re heat treated. ie: they were afraid the receiver would crack, so they were not willing to risk their money or safety on a gun of unknown quality.

so, logic back then. as now says this:

dont put more into it than you can get out of it and still meet your profit objective.

dont do anything to it to retard its saleability.

my attitude now is that, with rare exception, it does not make economic sense to put money into a gun for receiver case coloring... some like it, some dont, some like it, but dont like the way it was done or how it looks...to many variables. not worth the cost vs benefit risks.

fact is, its this lousy economy that is driving my business decisions. makes it almost not worth it anymore.

and as for Lincoln, the history books tell us he did it right...however, the facts tell me otherwise?

First rule of conservators and (good) restorers: Do no harm.

Has nothing to do with profit margins, but has more to do with respect for the object and for its future owners.

Ed, I've watched this site for quite a while now ...seen lots of good and bad stuff ,participated in some... but I have to ask the question ...well actually a couple .
What the hell is the exact point you are trying to make? Why do you feel the need to try and justify your low end fix er up solutions for a worn finish ,the bottom line is that you do it the "wrong way " it looks shitty,but you obviously sell a few guns by it and so be it ...I'm a gunsmith I've seen guns burnt to crap in house fires and you can clean them up,re stock and re sell and they work fine ,it's steel ,they're shotguns (low pressure ) the whole cracked receiver safety crap is just that . Point final.

But what is this inherent need with you to stir up shit ? you have no old time friend smith ,it's you and we all know it ...so why ?

The bone and charcoal looks the best,it was offered by all the old time makers as a restoration (check the Parker Story for instance ) so it's not wrong ,so shag off!!!

Hard fitting is a fact of the process,whether it be the first time or tenth time ,I asked the same question a year or so ago if someone has evidence of either method cracking or destroying a receiver and show proof ...none did ,and again ,shag off!!!

You seem to have a need to be a a shit disturber ,you make yourself seem like a rational fella ,poising supposedly legitimate questions about the process..the bottom line is you don't fool anyone here ,you don't have an "old Ed " the gunsmith who restores guns for you ,you temper color receivers to mimic proper coloring, because its quick and easy and you make a buck from it ,so just let it rest please ,I personally don't believe you do any real irreversible harm but it don't look "right " so just stop the tirade ,be content to sell your faux colored guns and give this crap up ,you're making yourself look like a proper tool!

replacement: agreed,

and with respect to this subject, a conservator would do no refinishing of a gun of any kind. it would be left exactly as found. perhaps a light cleaning, but nothing more.

and a restorer is by definition, not a conservator.

and from my perspective profit margin is very important.

and as for respect for the object and its future owners, that is too subjective to make a judgement. except, let the market place determine what is to be respected and at what value.

I also deal in antique firearms. my guide lines regarding preservation of antiques are entirely different than for modern firearms...but for the same reason: maximum sale price in the shortest time frame.

in all situations. that is what my consignment customers expect from me. and if I don't perform, guess what, no more consignments.

Hmmm, so what's with the torch, and assumptions.

craig: torch? what torch?

Ed is a businessman, trying to make a buck- how he does it, as long as he has a satisfied base of customers for the grade level of shotguns he offers for sale- If they don't know better to check, with the wealth of good information and data available on the Internet- Caveat Empetor I should guess. What bothers me is the obfuscation and legalese verbiage in his "return option" clause-- It isn't Bill Jaqua, and he set the standard, IMO, for honest gun dealing years ago- The only two gun dealers I know and would buy from in today's market are Brad Bachelder and Kirby Hoyt- I am sure there are other dealers just as honest as these two gents are, I just have not yet made their acquaintance.

foxie: thanks for the compliment, but I aint really a businessman. if I were I would be selling everything that shoots, which I don't. plus, I would not have a return policy. "all sales are final", would be my response to a request for return of an item.

I deal in antique and collectible firearms as a hobby. plus, I really do enjoy selling and my relationship with my customers, both consigners and buyers.

and it makes my day when I receive praise for my services...

I argue that your actual return policy is "all sales are final". Your return policy on Gunbrokers is vaguely worded and contradicts itself. Here is an example of how you apply your so called "return policy".

Our Friend Ed Did it Again

Why would ed have a return policy and not accept returns? It gives the prospect the misconception that he will be able to return the gun if there are any problems and makes him more likely to buy. But then when the gun shows up loose and off face ed says "nope, not a gross discrepancy so no return."

well mikee, argue all you want about what ever you want. but, please do it elsewhere. the subject of this thread is RECEIVER CASE COLORS.

ed you just discussed and extolled your return policy on this thread.

I argue that your actual return policy is "all sales are final". Your return policy on Gunbrokers is vaguely worded and contradicts itself. Here is an example of how you apply your so called "return policy".

Our Friend Ed Did it Again

Why would ed have a return policy and not accept returns? It gives the prospect the misconception that he will be able to return the gun if there are any problems and makes him more likely to buy. But then when the gun shows up loose and off face ed says "nope, not a gross discrepancy so no return."

ed,

Would you consider experimenting with "cyanide" case colors?
Get my drift?

Ken

ken: would you consider being nice...get my drift.

I'll consider being "nice" if you'll consider be less annoying.
Or... are you considering your redundant threads....thought provoking?

ken: sorry, if you are annoyed here.

maybe you should start a thread here? perhaps then it would less annoying to you.

mikee: the subject of this thread is RECEIVER CASE COLORS...if you wana talk about something else, please do it elsewhere.

which word don't you understand?

and I am still trying to be nice.

What a putz.

Well, you were certainly discussing return policies on this thread before I posted about return policies on it.

I say again that I think your return policy is vague and doesn't convey how very narrow the set of circumstances are that you (say) you will accept a return.

If you will stop scolding me about posting about return policies on this thread I will probably stop posting about return policies on this thread.

mike: sounds like a plan. have a nice day.

weather up here in northern new england has been absolutely gorgeous...how has it been down there in the pan handle?



" Tolerance is the touchstone of true liberalism "

The first three quotes are from this thread.







In my opinion:

ed's primary purpose here is to bait us. He takes great joy in it. Every so often he accidentally lets out a flash of smugness or a glimpse into his feelings of superiority. I usually ignore the baiting. But, once in awhile, I see him make (what appears to me) a strategic or tactical error in said baiting. I try my best to make that particular baiting session as unpleasant for him as possible. I do this in the hope that the risk of an unpleasant experience will someday outweigh the joy he gets from baiting us.

His secondary purpose here is to expose every ounce of prejudice, backwardness, ugliness, ignorance, hypocrisy, and intolerance in myself and the other members of the BBS, all the while almost appearing to concur with us but never able to fully disguise that he is sneering at our imperfections and pretensions.

He never lets the truth or fairness get in the way of his pursuit of either purpose.

Those two habits, completely undampened by morality, can be used to triangulate my view of ed's character.

I believe you're right Mike, except, you knew there'd be a but. Maybe, you give him a bit too much credit for being in charge here. I give him kudos for posting his psuedo shotgun stirrings down here in the basement. Was a time when it might go five pages up on the main forum.

Hey ed, since you're so anxious to get back on topic, could you tell us if that quote "Receiver has been recolored and now appears similar to original factory colors," is your own words from one of the descriptions of the torch colored guns that you sold?

I have seen both early and later NID's with everything from strong original colors to smooth and shiny to patina, and can assure you that none of them appeared similar to your psychedelic nightmare. And no camera flash will turn authentic colors into that mess. Disgusting is in the eye of the beholder. In several years of this foolishness, I can not recall one single person who liked your acetylene torch recolored guns. I can't imagine that any of the buyers were sophisticated enough to know the difference. Just think, they may learn the difference right here.

drew: the two nid guns you show for comparison are not quite correct for comparison purposes. the first gun you show is an early nid with cocking indicators. the other gun you show is a late nid without cocking indicators. the original case colors on the early and late nid's are not necessarily the same. as I recall the later guns had more green colors.

maybe someone could post pictures of a late nid with known factory case colors for comparison to the late nid shown here. also, it has been my experience that camera flash often distorts true case colors, so it is hard to make accurate comparisons from flash images.

a google search for Ithaca nid revealed images of a 1935 vintage nid with what appear to be original case colors, with lots of green color, not usually observed in the earlier guns.


"tolerance is the cornerstone of liberalism"

ed, you forgot to answer my question: Are these your own words from one of your descriptions of one of your torch colored guns?--
"Receiver has been recolored and now appears similar to original factory colors"

We already read your silly answer to Drew. It didn't pass the smell test the first time, and it doesn't now.

Could you give us a link to that Google search picture?



"tolerance is the cornerstone of falling for anyone's bullshit."

keith: cant seem to link it to here, but, try this:

1929 Ithaca NID double barrel • Shotgunworld.com

look at the third picture.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=287919

ed, there is the link. It isn't the case colors which are more greenish than earlier case colors... it's the whole gun. Even the barrel bluing looks to be an olive drab color.

Even still, those case colors in that third photo in no way, shape, or form, appear similar to your torch colored guns. Well, I guess you could say that dark blue spray paint "appears similar" to a fine glossy slow rust blue on barrels... but anyone with half a brain would know there is a difference.

Same thing with the difference between bone charcoal case hardening colors and your acetylene torch colors. Not even close! You'd have to be dillusional to even think it. Are you?

Ed, you just told Mike to stick to the subject of RECEIVER CASE COLORS, and now you go asking about the weather. Why don't you practice what you preach? Class, can anyone here spell "hypocrite"?

As if anybody here thinks you really care what the weather is really like in Amarillo.

SRH

ok, ok, I got it...

ed, ed, ed... you're not paying attention to the old master, King Brown. The proper Burger King response would be to either change the subject (Dance of the Gnomoron), pretend you didn't see the replys which are unflattering to you, or accuse the responders of being hateful, racist, misogynist, profane, and uncivil. Pretend that Misfires is a horrible place even if 98% to 99% of your time is spent there. Remember, a personal attack is not an attack if you don't name names!

But never, never, never admit that you were wrong.

ed's primary purpose on this BBS is to bait us.

Since ed has opened the topic up on this thread up anybody want to talk about different dealer return policies they have seen?

Just to screw up Ed Goods thread-because he thinks he is in charge and it gets him so pissed off.

HEY ED-HOW ABOUT THAT NEW BOOK BY HILLARY ? (all caps to show the libtard Ed Good how stupid it looks)

Mike, I have found that most legit dealers offer a 3 day non-firing inspection period. No questions asked, but the buyer pays for return shipping. On a used double, I'm not sure how they would know if it had been fired or not if it was cleaned afterward... unless the barrels blew up.

Others may advertise a gun As Is with No Return. I have bought some of these for parts when the seller took the time to answer my questions, and I adjusted my bid price accordingly. Several of these ended up being too nice to part out. But due diligence is important to avoid getting burned. I always assume an As/Is no return gun will have some serious issues. Reading a sellers feedback helps, but sometimes the bad feedback gets purged.

I get very suspicious when the return policy is vague and/or when the seller is evasive about answering my questions. When a seller puts lipstick on a pig in an attempt to fool the buyer, I get similarly suspicious. Those are the times to just wait for another gun to come along. If you bought a gun that was described as being tight, and it rattled around with the forearm removed... and the seller refused to accept a return, how would you feel about that sellers integrity? I guess it's possible that the buyer might have stolen several thousandths of material from the hinge pin, hook, or bolting surfaces, but not very likely.

Plenty of good, clear, close-up photographs are invaluable. Those same clear pics could also protect a seller from a buyer who might steal or substitute internal parts by documenting screw slot condition and timing at the time of shipping. There's bad apples on both ends, but most gun guys are pretty honest.

Apparently sniffing acetylene fumes over time will make you delusional. You will start seeing all the colors of the rainbow!

"out, damn spot, out I say"

water, water, everywhere...and all the boards do shrink...

and the albatross hung round my neck...

ok boys and girls lets be nice now?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh2MSiU7gDU

Screw you A$$hole. You'll find that payback is ALWAYS a [censored]!

I ask for princes...they give me...


THREAD TRASHERS!

The scandal of fiddled global warming data
The US has actually been cooling since the Thirties, the hottest decade on record

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environ...rming-data.html


When future generations try to understand how the world got carried away around the end of the 20th century by the panic over global warming, few things will amaze them more than the part played in stoking up the scare by the fiddling of official temperature data. There was already much evidence of this seven years ago, when I was writing my history of the scare, The Real Global Warming Disaster. But now another damning example has been uncovered by Steven Goddard’s US blog Real Science, showing how shamelessly manipulated has been one of the world’s most influential climate records, the graph of US surface temperature records published by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).

Goddard shows how, in recent years, NOAA’s US Historical Climatology Network (USHCN) has been “adjusting” its record by replacing real temperatures with data “fabricated” by computer models. The effect of this has been to downgrade earlier temperatures and to exaggerate those from recent decades, to give the impression that the Earth has been warming up much more than is justified by the actual data. In several posts headed “Data tampering at USHCN/GISS”,