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Posted By: rocky mtn bill high walls in 30 US - 07/07/20 11:22 PM
I've seen and owned a bunch of high walls in 30 US, but never heard of an original rifle with anything but a 30" # 3 barrel which makes for a ponderous load in the woods. At the same time Winchester made 1895's with short and long barrels that were slender enough to carry. My question is why didn't they offer a high wall that was handy to carry afield? I've never seen this issue in print, and don't expect some definitive answer but would like to hear some speculation. Keith, you don't need to intrude with your usual stupidity.
Posted By: Boltman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/08/20 08:24 PM
Bill - that's interesting about your experience with High Walls in .30 US. The .30 US was fairly low production in the High Wall. About 1000 made if I recall. High Walls strongly tended to have long barrels, as you have observed. If a buyer had wanted one with a shorter barrel, Winchester would have surely made them one. I've seen plenty of Winchester lever rifles of that era that were ordered with short barrels. I know they made a very small number of Low Walls with carbine length barrels (e.g. 15 or 20 inch) but as I think about it, I have almost never seen a High Wall ordered with a short barrel. I agree with you, I would not be choosing a High Wall to carry in the woods either. I suppose the woods hunter wanted a repeater anyway so the High Wall was already in disfavor? Interesting question.
Posted By: Craigster Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/08/20 09:12 PM
Probably because they wanted to satisfy the demands of the long range/match Creedmore target shooters of the day. I think they intended them to be target rifles from the get go, not hunting rifles.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/08/20 09:14 PM
There were and are many highwalls in many calibers that are light and "handy" with shorter and longer barrels as well, but 1885 actions are very short compared to a 1895, for example. So a 28" or longer will still be quite "handy", esp. relative to the same length on a 93 or 73 or whatever.

I use a 30" .38-72 highwall quite a lot in Wyoming for several species of game
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/08/20 09:59 PM
Craigster, You could be correct, but I've never seen one of these rifles with original factory target sights. They seem predominately to have been made with open hunting sights. And, come to think of it almost all the smokeless cartridge high walls had #3 barrels: the 30-30s, 32 Specials, 405s, even the few 218 Bees and 219 Zippers. I did see a 22 Hornet that had been re-barreled at the factory with a #2 barrel.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/08/20 10:53 PM
Here are some lists of the different calibers and barrel weights for 1885s from Campbell's book.





Posted By: craigd Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/08/20 11:02 PM
So, you’re starting to see the possibilities of the short barreled AR? A common configuration might have just came down to what sold well at the time, and the special order option was seemingly easily available? It’s a curiosity that you didn’t run into some tang sight hunting rifles.

What makes the thirty inch barrel so difficult? Even if a bit lighter could be easier to lug around, being limited to a single shot would have the implication of a more deliberate shot. The weight and longer sight plane would have helped with field accuracy, even today? While you can do as you please, maybe don’t take a hack saw and file to a decent condition original?

By the way, how thick could the woods be where you hunt? Take a few steps and a several hundred yard lane opens up?
Posted By: waterman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/09/20 02:30 AM
More than a few of those in .30 US were made with specific match rules in mind. They may have come with open sights, but some were d&t for the Krag sight and had (at extra cost, of course, a front sight similar to our military rifles. W. Milton Farrow owned one about 1908 and competed in long range matches. Walter Hudson may well have had a similar rifle.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/09/20 01:58 PM
Craig, My 30" 3# rifle in 30 US weighs 10 lbs, and it's very muzzle heavy. One in 25-35 would weigh around eleven. For a pip squeak cartridge, that's a lot of hardware. Waterman, you may well be right about match rules. Is there any record of how well they fared? All the ones I've shot are very accurate.
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/09/20 03:52 PM
Talk about barrel heavy, my .22LR has a 30" #3 barrel. It's all barrel. Seems to carry well, though heavy.



Posted By: james-l Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/09/20 03:52 PM
Somewhere I've seen a photo of the Krag Highwall that Townsend Whelen owned and used for years, wonder what configuration it was.
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/09/20 11:29 PM
A Deluxe High Wall in .30 US. Unfortunately I don't have any other info, I must have been very busy when it came through the shop? It does look like a 30", #3 round barrel. I love the checkering pattern that modern Winchester kinda ruined with the M-70 Featherweight.

Posted By: Boltman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 01:10 AM
Here's a Model 1885 that came up for sale recently. The original owner who special ordered it seems to have been intent on as light a weight big game single-shot as possible. I have never seen a low wall in a large caliber. This one tempted me to a very high degree. There are many aspects of this rifle that are very appealing:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868298943
Posted By: waterman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 01:31 AM
When set up to conform with certain match rules, probably at Sea Girt and similar ranges, the sticking point would be sight radius. The normal rifle used in US military-rules matches 1900-1914 was the Krag with a 30" barrel, but with a sight radius closer to 26" or 27". On the HW, the 1901 or 1902 Krag sights were mounted close to the action, placing the tiny peep closer to the eye, an optical advantage. But the Winchester barrel needed to be shorter than 30" to meet the rules.

The match results were published in Shooting and Fishing, sometimes with equipment lists. Walter Hudson was normally listed as a member of the NJ National Guard team. W.Milton Farrow was listed as a member of the DC National Guard team. If they were shooting at 600 yards or greater, they may well have used their Winchesters.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 03:07 AM
Originally Posted By: Boltman
Here's a Model 1885 that came up for sale recently. The original owner who special ordered it seems to have been intent on as light a weight big game single-shot as possible. I have never seen a low wall in a large caliber. This one tempted me to a very high degree. There are many aspects of this rifle that are very appealing:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868298943


Beautiful rifle, but I'd not like to be within a 100 yds of anyone pulling the trigger on it. Too much for the low wall in my opinion.
Posted By: Craigster Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 03:53 AM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Originally Posted By: Boltman
Here's a Model 1885 that came up for sale recently. The original owner who special ordered it seems to have been intent on as light a weight big game single-shot as possible. I have never seen a low wall in a large caliber. This one tempted me to a very high degree. There are many aspects of this rifle that are very appealing:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868298943


Beautiful rifle, but I'd not like to be within a 100 yds of anyone pulling the trigger on it. Too much for the low wall in my opinion.


If it was barreled and chambered by Winchester I wouldn't be too worried. They pretty much knew what they were doing.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 11:54 AM
Originally Posted By: Craigster
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Originally Posted By: Boltman
Here's a Model 1885 that came up for sale recently. The original owner who special ordered it seems to have been intent on as light a weight big game single-shot as possible. I have never seen a low wall in a large caliber. This one tempted me to a very high degree. There are many aspects of this rifle that are very appealing:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868298943


Beautiful rifle, but I'd not like to be within a 100 yds of anyone pulling the trigger on it. Too much for the low wall in my opinion.


If it was barreled and chambered by Winchester I wouldn't be too worried. They pretty much knew what they were doing.


"IF" and that's a very big IF. I do not believe that could be documented. And even so, the .38-56 is a necked down .45-70 case. There is a lot of consternation about even .38-55s in low wall actions.

At least it is a thick-tang action for what little good that will do. There are reasons for low wall actions and .38-56 is not among them.
Posted By: craigd Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 12:23 PM
I don’t know how to make heads or tails of the authenticity, but there’s a Cody letter thrown in the mix.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 03:15 PM
Nowadays it wouldn't be hard to fudge a factory letter. I can't imagine Winchester did that. On the other hand, they made lots of high walls in 22 Short. Go figure.
Posted By: Boltman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 05:42 PM
I think the .38/56 is the real deal from Winchester. It's not difficult to do a phone check and verify that a museum letter is not a fake. It's my understanding that after the auction ended an experienced Winchester collector contacted the seller and purchased it. Again, I was sorely tempted. However, I didn't become aware of the auction until it had ended. It's my understanding that more than one Winchester collector contacted the seller after the auction ended. I believe that had happened by the time the auction ended, so I really didn't have a chance. A very very unique High Wall for sure. Light too - which seems the intent of the original purchaser.
Posted By: craigd Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 06:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Boltman
I think the .38/56 is the real deal from Winchester. It's not difficult to do a phone check and verify that a museum letter is not a fake....

....A very very unique High Wall for sure....

Thanks for the insight from the possible collector interest point of view this 38-56 rifle generated. Just for clarification, the concern is that it is a low wall action.

Conventional wisdom aside, a low wall receiver ring/barrel shank and block would have much more meat around the chamber than most revolvers would. Even if ill advised to build today, if it’s an original in good shape, I know I would would be shooting that rifle at the range and maybe at game.
Posted By: Craigster Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 07:51 PM
Originally Posted By: craigd
[quote=Boltman]I think the .38/56 is the real deal from Winchester. It's not difficult to do a phone check and verify that a museum letter is not a fake....

....A very very unique High Wall for sure....



It's a Low Wall.
Posted By: HalfaDouble Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 08:57 PM
That'a a High Wall breech block, isn't it? Perhaps it is a cut down High Wall Action like some of the "Winders". It would then be a large shank action, wouldn't it?
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 09:38 PM
Originally Posted By: HalfaDouble
That'a a High Wall breech block, isn't it? Perhaps it is a cut down High Wall Action like some of the "Winders". It would then be a large shank action, wouldn't it?


There is no such thing as an exclusively highwall block. Nor do all highwalls have large shank threading. All thin tang 1885s are low walls and are thread for small shank barrels but the converse is not true. Thick tang low walls are effectively cutdown highwalls but can have small shanks and any block. For instance this one has a scalloped block and a large shank #2 barrel:



Further, these rifles are lettered by their serial number, of course. The serial number is on the trigger bar and the trigger bars can be swapped around among any other similiar thick/thin tang action be it high or low. So what that guns letters to, only tells you how the trigger bar left the factory. And the letter does not denote low or highwall. They were all The 1885 Singleshot to Winchester.

But maybe it did leave the factory a .38-56. I will would not shoot it. Nor would 90% of the people that compete with bpcr Winchesters and know quite a bit about them.
Posted By: LRF Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 09:58 PM
Does anyone have actual experience with "fake" factory letters on Winchesters, from the Cody Museum?
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 10:30 PM
I presume you do not mean letters actually from the Cody Museum being fake but rather people faking letters to appear as if they are from the Cody museum. I have not heard of that problem and if it was somewhat common, I think I probably would have at least heard of such issues.

No one has ever questioned the authority of the Museum with respect to manufacturing records as far as I'm aware.
Posted By: craigd Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/10/20 11:40 PM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
...So what that guns letters to, only tells you how the trigger bar left the factory....

What other documentation could someone come up with, other than luck? Serious Winchester collectors are pretty particular, what do they look at, or was there a fairly large scale duping for this low wall?
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/11/20 12:05 AM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
[quote=HalfaDouble]
There is no such thing as an exclusively highwall block. Nor do all highwalls have large shank threading. All thin tang 1885s are low walls and are thread for small shank barrels but the converse is not true.



I have 1885 #383, a 32 WCF highwall.that I wanted to turn into one of those "cigar" cartridges. Joe Harz told me it's a small shank and I shouldn't do that.



Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/11/20 12:20 AM
Joe Harz knew of what he spoke. He and a handful of others really had the 1885 down cold. I'm not sure why that particular gun would be small shanked but perhaps most or all .32 WCF were that way. I would certainly defer to Joe every time. If it is a small one, it has no utility as a big bore gun even though it is a highwall.

I can think of two .38-55 low walls. One was built that way from parts. The other I'm not sure. One was owned by a competitor and shot only blackpowder (albeit with overly heavy bullets). The other is/was owned by a (maybe THE) recognized Singleshot authority. He told me that he did not really want to advertise what he had because he considered it very borderline. He shot only extremely light smokeless loads for fun. He was worried about what might happen with the next owner and that it might begin to stretch and shoot loose in time. When we talked, I was thinking about a .38-55 low wall myself, but that got me over the notion. There is no purpose to a big cartridge in a low wall. None at all. I don't know why I ever considered it except I like the lines.
Posted By: keith Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/11/20 01:20 AM
Why bicker over which cartridges are suitable for 1885 Winchester actions when you could learn more by reading rocky mtn bill's posts bashing Donald Trump and the NRA:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=552584
Posted By: Boltman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/11/20 01:53 AM
Originally Posted By: craigd
Originally Posted By: Boltman
I think the .38/56 is the real deal from Winchester. It's not difficult to do a phone check and verify that a museum letter is not a fake....

....A very very unique High Wall for sure....

Thanks for the insight from the possible collector interest point of view this 38-56 rifle generated. Just for clarification, the concern is that it is a low wall action.

Conventional wisdom aside, a low wall receiver ring/barrel shank and block would have much more meat around the chamber than most revolvers would. Even if ill advised to build today, if it’s an original in good shape, I know I would would be shooting that rifle at the range and maybe at game.


Yes, of course it is a low wall. I was typing without thinking. My mistake.

As far a faked Cody Museum letters (i.e. letter's that didn't come from Cody), I have heard of this occurring. I haven't heard of many examples but I know many collectors, when purchasing a rifle that has a Cody letter with it, will call the museum for verification.
Posted By: Bob Saathoff Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/11/20 03:03 AM
That low wall is the real deal. I saw this auction back in May and posted it on the WACA Forum. It's verified in the Winchester Ledger.
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/pretty-rare-low-wall-or-whats-going-on-here/
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/11/20 03:05 AM
Bob, I'll believe you. But I sure hope you don't try shooting it.
Posted By: Bob Saathoff Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/11/20 03:17 AM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Bob, I'll believe you. But I sure hope you don't try shooting it.


It's not mine and I don't think I would try it either. Somebody with factory pull must have ordered it that way. I have seen two very early highwalls in .32WCF with small shank barrels. I had my money out some years back in Sioux Falls and was going to buy it. Then I got my wits about me and checked the shank size. Billfold went back in the pocket.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/11/20 11:26 AM
I need to go to Sioux Falls one of these days.

Hope to see you at Harris.
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/11/20 11:06 PM
Here's a question, is the outside thickness of the receiver the same on small shanks as large shanks? I would think so.

Is the barrel made of better steel than the receiver on the early guns? Is the strength from the barrel wall thickness and not the receievr so a larger shank means it can take higher pressures?

If so what's to keep one from opening up a small shank receiver to accept a large shank?
Posted By: waterman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 01:02 AM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Originally Posted By: Craigster
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Originally Posted By: Boltman
Here's a Model 1885 that came up for sale recently. The original owner who special ordered it seems to have been intent on as light a weight big game single-shot as possible. I have never seen a low wall in a large caliber. This one tempted me to a very high degree. There are many aspects of this rifle that are very appealing:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868298943


Beautiful rifle, but I'd not like to be within a 100 yds of anyone pulling the trigger on it. Too much for the low wall in my opinion.


If it was barreled and chambered by Winchester I wouldn't be too worried. They pretty much knew what they were doing.


"IF" and that's a very big IF. I do not believe that could be documented. And even so, the .38-56 is a necked down .45-70 case. There is a lot of consternation about even .38-55s in low wall actions.

At least it is a thick-tang action for what little good that will do. There are reasons for low wall actions and .38-56 is not among them.


AMEN!
Posted By: LRF Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 01:12 AM
I have a question what is so different in the Low Wall recently made by Winchester such that they can be chambered for significantly higher pressure modern cartridges like the 243 and/or the 6.5x55?
Posted By: Boltman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 01:22 AM
If the .38-56 were ordered with instructions, "as light as possible" I suppose it is possible the person ordering it was not specifically involved in whether the rifle was built on a high wall or low wall action. It's my rough memory that the factory ledgers do not specify "low wall" or "high wall". Sometimes, the customer told Winchester what they wanted and Winchester figured out the technical details of accomplishing the request. Here is a letter on a Model 1886 .45-90 I have. The detail regarding what the customer wanted as far as trigger pull is noteworthy:

https://imgur.com/6fEeqiP
Posted By: Boltman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 01:30 AM
On the topic of this .38-56, another interesting factor (observed by someone more knowledgeable than me) is that it is a first issue low wall frame and these frames were discontinued in the 17,000 to 18,000 serial number range. This .38-56 is in the high 35,000 range. There is likely an interesting story that goes with this rifle.
Posted By: Chuckster Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 01:56 AM
Can give an engineering lecture on original Low-Walls.
The Low-wall is a fine action for pistol caliber cartridges but not more.
They will not fail catastrophically unless ridiculous, but will batter and crack the right shoulder.
Modern Low-walls have raised the shoulders above the center line of the cartridge.
Chuck
Posted By: Gary D. Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 03:01 AM
Originally Posted By: LRF
I have a question what is so different in the Low Wall recently made by Winchester such that they can be chambered for significantly higher pressure modern cartridges like the 243 and/or the 6.5x55?


Good question. I assume it's because of vastly superior metallurgy. I will confess to being mildly apprehensive about them being chambered in large-ish high pressure cartridges, but evidently it's unfounded. I have a Miroku-made Low Wall chambered for .223 and am delighted with it, by the way. But, the .223 case head area is a lot smaller than that of a .243 hence generates less push against the breech block.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 03:11 AM
Originally Posted By: LRF
I have a question what is so different in the Low Wall recently made by Winchester such that they can be chambered for significantly higher pressure modern cartridges like the 243 and/or the 6.5x55?


Geometry and steel.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 03:24 AM
Originally Posted By: Boltman
On the topic of this .38-56, another interesting factor (observed by someone more knowledgeable than me) is that it is a first issue low wall frame and these frames were discontinued in the 17,000 to 18,000 serial number range. This .38-56 is in the high 35,000 range. There is likely an interesting story that goes with this rifle.


Well, the trigger bar is in the high 35k range. The rest?

I would love to see the receiver face on this gun. I wonder it has a cut for the ejector spring commonly found on low wall actions? Also, the top of the receiver is round and without the concavity that is often found on thick-tang low walls. Perhaps this is a one-off project cut down from a highwall action. It would be interesting to carefully compare the cut down walls on this gun to one such as my thick-tang rifle. But that a chore for tomorrow.
Posted By: craigd Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 03:50 AM
I can appreciate that a low wall should just be what it is, and that there are different locking systems. Lever rifles are an example of relatively small barrel shanks mated up to the 30-30 head size, and others just a little bigger than the low wall running the big 45 and 50 black powder cartridges.

I believe it’s absolute silliness to do an inappropriate build today, but if the 38-56 low wall is a genuine Winchester, what exactly did they do wrong back at that time? This rifle did not seem intended for high volume shooting, could it have been sold knowing a durability trade off for weight savings. There are many modern examples of guns that get rattled to bits by full power loads, but the manufacturer knows the minuscule round count that’s ever likely to go through the arm.
Posted By: LRF Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 03:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Chuckster
....
Modern Low-walls have raised the shoulders above the center line of the cartridge.
Chuck


I examined and compared pics of original LW's and the new Winchester LW's, There appears to be a subtle difference to the action line just behind the breech block. And I want to say subtle again. If this is the change you are saying then I say that it does not rise to above the centerline to any extent. Now I do not have one to measure but measuring in AutoCad and comparing I do again say the delta is small.

Brent,
"Geometry and steel." Please elaborate on the geometry differences. Do you know what was used then and the steel used now?

Concerning the 38-56 cartridge being discussed,
The 38-56 WCF was a black powder cartridge and created well before smokeless. Using black powder, the cartridge is typical of chamber pressures that all BP cartridges see. The LW, using pressures and performance of BP, is safe to shoot for this cartridge IMO. After all you wouldn't think twice about shooting this cartridge in a Ballard a design inferior to the LW. If you shoot hot loads in any cartridge, any cartridge, bad things can happen. Some people on here already know if they improperly load cartridge the results can be very unpleasant.

I would shoot the rifle, at the center of this discussion, with BP reloads.
Posted By: Boltman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 03:46 PM
This particular LW rifle falls squarely in the collectible category. It is super rare if not unique. It is in high condition with original finishes. It has been legitimized by the museum records. It is one of the most unique M1885's that most collectors (e.g. me) have seen. So.... the safety of shooting it discussion is interesting but only so relevant. And by the way, I agree with Lyn regarding the safety with black powder loads.
Posted By: Boltman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 04:55 PM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Originally Posted By: Boltman
On the topic of this .38-56, another interesting factor (observed by someone more knowledgeable than me) is that it is a first issue low wall frame and these frames were discontinued in the 17,000 to 18,000 serial number range. This .38-56 is in the high 35,000 range. There is likely an interesting story that goes with this rifle.


Well, the trigger bar is in the high 35k range. The rest?

I would love to see the receiver face on this gun. I wonder it has a cut for the ejector spring commonly found on low wall actions? Also, the top of the receiver is round and without the concavity that is often found on thick-tang low walls. Perhaps this is a one-off project cut down from a highwall action. It would be interesting to carefully compare the cut down walls on this gun to one such as my thick-tang rifle. But that a chore for tomorrow.


This .38-56 has the early breech-block that does not have the rounded edges and hence the breech block is greater in weight. In addition, it has the flared receiver where the receiver meets the forearm and where the receiver meets the buttstock. Also of note, many low wall and high wall parts are interchangeable.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 06:13 PM
LRF,
John Campbell quotes B. McDaniel of South Lyon, Michigan, "the hardness of Single-Shot Receivers seems to be 'all over the map'". He goes on to explain why he agrees with that statement and McDaniel's qualifications.

Later, Campbell also lists the steels used by Winchester in this era and none of them sound like steels we would associate with modern gun steels. I would guess the the Winchester and Brownchester guns are made with 4140 or similar modern alloy.

I'm not sure how you can determine the geometry of one of those more modern low walls from a photo, but they are supposed to be quite different. They do not interest me. I do not bother looking at them.

As for a forged action Ballard being inferior to a low wall - that's just wrong. Ballard, No 5s and 5 1/2s (Pacific and Montana, respectively) were chambered for large and long .45s . I own and shoot one myself. It is not the strongest action, but the block/receiver/barrel geometry is such that is safe. No one with an ounce of qualifications as a gunsmith would put a .45-70 or bigger in a low wall, but they would all put a .45 on a Pacific or Montana.

Boltman, the thickness of the block at its top has nothing to do with strength since there is nothing behind it but air. Putting low wall parts in a highwall and vice versa mean nothing with respect to strength of the action, nor to the dimensions of the wood to metal fit, except with the potential to turn one's buttstock into a pile of toothpicks. That is not being debated here. The stock will hold.

If you compare a paneled (thin side) highwall to that particular low wall, look at how much steel has been removed. Not very much at all. Hollowing the stock would compensate for that much steel easily. This is the ONLY difference between the paneled highwall and the paneled low wall. But then look again at WHERE that the steel was removed. Every bit of it was steel that supports the block under recoil. So, for minuscule weight savings, the strength of the action takes a great hit.

The low wall was made for one reason and that was the ease of loading and unloading small, low-energy cartridges which are difficult to navigate through the trough of a highwall. It is not about weight it is about convenience. The .38-56 needs no such convenience. It is basically a lever gun round (and a poor one at that) for rifles such as the 1886.

I do miss Joe Harz and Whitey. Joe would not be impressed with that .38-56 either.
Posted By: craigd Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 07:18 PM
If it’s authentic, it doesn’t have to impress based on hundred year later justifications. All it had to do was stand the test of time, the less changes from original the better, for appreciating by those that want to. Maybe, the question should be, are there historical records showing why Winchester would go so far away from conventional thought, not that a rifle can be nit picked in theory. This rifle is much more interesting than rehashing why .22 short is an appropriate chambering.
Posted By: Boltman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 09:22 PM
So the real issue is not the metal that is absent from the sides of the receiver, but because there is metal absent from the sides of the receiver, that means there is less metal behind the breechblock (i.e. to handle the rearward thrust of the breechblock)?
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/12/20 09:55 PM
Indeed.. the paneled sides are safe at any speed. The unsupported breech block, not so much. How much, not so much - that is the debatable issue.
Posted By: Boltman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/13/20 12:55 AM
This thread has been helpful to me. First, it has been educational - which is always a plus. Second, the comments from those that have been less than enthralled with the .38-56 chambering helps assuage my pangs over not ending up with this rifle. The pangs are still there, but not as bad.
Posted By: waterman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/13/20 04:35 PM
I have an original antique Low Wall that we discussed here some time ago. Started as a .32 rimfire, a rusty junker. A guy I worked with bought it, put in a CF block and re-barreled it to .32-40. He fired what he said were a few Winchester "John Wayne" cartridges. Another friend thought they were handloads, but overloaded with 4227. In any event, the action failed, cracking on both sides at the rear of the breech block slot. The guy sold it to person #2 as junk.

Person #2 had the action repaired by some expert welding, quite a good job. The action was completely refinished in french grey and was engraved by Ken Hurst. That completely hides the welds. Person #2 then put a Green Mountain .25-20 WCF barrel on the action, rust blued the barrel and other parts, fitted good sights. #2 is an excellent woodworker. He made a stock of light colored walnut with a beautiful figure. The rifle is a thing of beauty.

But the rifle was terribly inaccurate, simply would not shoot well. #2 consigned it to a shop, but with a folder attached showing photos of the rebuilding, including before & after pics of the cracked & welded action.

I purchased the rifle, even though I knew all the details. On inspection, the barrel was a reject, should have never left the shop. About 6 inches of tool chatter marks in one groove.

I had made arrangements with Joe Harr to convert the action to rimfire and put a .22 LR liner in the barrel. We were going to trade breech blocks. The rifle was ready to ship when Joe died.

It went back into the safe. Now I'm 80, with other, very interesting rifles to play with, including another Low Wall, converted to a Hornet years back. I had that one re-barreled to 28-30 Stevens and made with a false muzzle.
Posted By: Boltman Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/13/20 05:33 PM
Originally Posted By: waterman
I have an original antique Low Wall that we discussed here some time ago. Started as a .32 rimfire, a rusty junker. A guy I worked with bought it, put in a CF block and re-barreled it to .32-40. He fired what he said were a few Winchester "John Wayne" cartridges. Another friend thought they were handloads, but overloaded with 4227. In any event, the action failed, cracking on both sides at the rear of the breech block slot. The guy sold it to person #2 as junk.

Person #2 had the action repaired by some expert welding, quite a good job. The action was completely refinished in french grey and was engraved by Ken Hurst. That completely hides the welds. Person #2 then put a Green Mountain .25-20 WCF barrel on the action, rust blued the barrel and other parts, fitted good sights. #2 is an excellent woodworker. He made a stock of light colored walnut with a beautiful figure. The rifle is a thing of beauty.

But the rifle was terribly inaccurate, simply would not shoot well. #2 consigned it to a shop, but with a folder attached showing photos of the rebuilding, including before & after pics of the cracked & welded action.

I purchased the rifle, even though I knew all the details. On inspection, the barrel was a reject, should have never left the shop. About 6 inches of tool chatter marks in one groove.

I had made arrangements with Joe Harr to convert the action to rimfire and put a .22 LR liner in the barrel. We were going to trade breech blocks. The rifle was ready to ship when Joe died.

It went back into the safe. Now I'm 80, with other, very interesting rifles to play with, including another Low Wall, converted to a Hornet years back. I had that one re-barreled to 28-30 Stevens and made with a false muzzle.




A very interesting story - so many twists and turns. Thanks for posting. I'm surprised so much work would go into the welding and engraving when finding a no-problem low wall rifle is not an expensive prospect. However, I am aware sometimes there is the strong appeal of rescuing something that is on hand.
Posted By: HalfaDouble Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/13/20 06:55 PM
I suppose I could add to this discussion. I have a high wall that has been fitted with a short, light barrel in .30-40 Krag obviously set up for hunting. The interesting thing about it is that it has a one piece stock by Farr. There is information on Farr in Landis. He describes that for the woodchuck hunters matches of the late 30s early 40s he figured the only way a single shot could compete with the bolt actions was if it had a one piece stock. He goes on to tell of his unusual bedding system where the recoil is taken up by a dovetailed block which carries a barrel band and is inlet into the forearm. The action itself floats free except that the shortened upper tang has one screw into the stock. The lower tang is cut off at the trigger. It carries a Lyman 1a peep on a shortened tang base. Sounds weird but it works. Once I had found the cast bullet load for it, a less than MOA group at 100 yards resulted.
Posted By: LRF Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/13/20 07:31 PM
Originally Posted By: HalfaDouble
..... The action itself floats free except that the shortened upper tang has one screw into the stock. The lower tang is cut off at the trigger. ....


Now there is a twist, floating action instead of floating barrel. Please post a picture of your unique rifle I know many would like to see is. We can help with picture posting if needed.
Posted By: LRF Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/13/20 07:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Boltman
Originally Posted By: waterman
I have an original antique Low Wall that we discussed here some time ago. Started as a .32 rimfire, a rusty junker. A guy I worked with bought it, put in a CF block and re-barreled it to .32-40. He fired what he said were a few Winchester "John Wayne" cartridges. Another friend thought they were handloads, but overloaded with 4227. In any event, the action failed, cracking on both sides at the rear of the breech block slot. The guy sold it to person #2 as junk.

Person #2 had the action repaired by some expert welding, quite a good job. The action was completely refinished in french grey and was engraved by Ken Hurst. That completely hides the welds. Person #2 then put a Green Mountain .25-20 WCF barrel on the action, rust blued the barrel and other parts, fitted good sights. #2 is an excellent woodworker. He made a stock of light colored walnut with a beautiful figure. The rifle is a thing of beauty.

But the rifle was terribly inaccurate, simply would not shoot well. #2 consigned it to a shop, but with a folder attached showing photos of the rebuilding, including before & after pics of the cracked & welded action.

I purchased the rifle, even though I knew all the details. On inspection, the barrel was a reject, should have never left the shop. About 6 inches of tool chatter marks in one groove.

I had made arrangements with Joe Harr to convert the action to rimfire and put a .22 LR liner in the barrel. We were going to trade breech blocks. The rifle was ready to ship when Joe died.

It went back into the safe. Now I'm 80, with other, very interesting rifles to play with, including another Low Wall, converted to a Hornet years back. I had that one re-barreled to 28-30 Stevens and made with a false muzzle.




A very interesting story - so many twists and turns. Thanks for posting. I'm surprised so much work would go into the welding and engraving when finding a no-problem low wall rifle is not an expensive prospect. However, I am aware sometimes there is the strong appeal of rescuing something that is on hand.


Waterman, please post a picture of the rifle you have. We would like to see it. (If you don't know how to post pictures then let me or PhysDoc know and we can do it for you. Just send a PM)
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/13/20 07:39 PM
I hope it shot a lot better that 1 MOA after all that trouble. 2-piece stocked 1885s do that with regularity.
Posted By: HalfaDouble Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/13/20 07:54 PM
I'm sure his woodchuck/target rifles did with their heavy barrels and full power loads in 219 Donaldson or 30-30 Improved or one of Farr's wildcats. I only shoot cast bullets at targets and, actually, many modern hunting rifles are pressed to do 1 MOA maybe especially in 30-40.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/13/20 08:22 PM
I didnt realize that .30-40 is inherently problematic, but that might explain my own in that caliber.

I was referring to straight wall cases from .22 to .45 with black or smokeless powders. They shoot quite well in traditional configurations.

I've only heard of one 1-piece stocked 1885. I'd love to see another.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/13/20 10:34 PM
HalfaDouble, Would you say something about the loads you get best results with?
Posted By: LRF Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 12:43 AM
HalfaDouble, I sent you a PM with my email address. I'll post your pic when I get it.
Posted By: Nero Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 03:28 AM
I have owned four High Walls in my time and it always amazes me how well they shoot with that big old hammer coming down like it does and the barrel not free floated. Always into MOA.
Posted By: HalfaDouble Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 04:31 AM
Bill, the final load was the 215 grain Lyman 311284 over 21 grains of H4198. The bullet had to be seated quite deeply to chamber.
Posted By: LRF Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 12:14 PM

HalfaDouble's highwall
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 12:45 PM
Well, that sure is different. I can't imagine how that grip feels.

Is that a "thick" side action, or a thin side action with the flares ground off like a thin-tang, flat-sided low wall?

Thanks.
Posted By: keith Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 05:28 PM
I'm pretty sure that rocky mtn bill didn't intend to neglect this forum when he posted this political crap excuse for the Black Lives Matter terrorists tearing down historical monuments and statues in U.S. towns and cities:

Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
Ted, Craig, What strikes you as senseless destruction and historical erasure is a point of view that says we really ought to accept a third of our citizens as second and third rate in their basic rights. Like most conservatives, you can't figure out how, if you've somehow managed to succeed, anybody else couldn't also. It's almost a fair question. Our glorious leader's work throughout the plague has been a wonder to behold. We had it licked here, but it's back now worse than ever. One thing we have in common though: we're all in the vulnerable age group along with the man himself. Aren't you glad he's on your side?


I'm also pretty sure he'd want a few guys here to understand just how often he posts non-gun political crap in defense of anti-gun Democrats on this website. The whole exchange can be seen here John and Shane:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=575512#Post575512
Posted By: HalfaDouble Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 05:49 PM
Brent, the grip actually feels a lot like my CPA Stevens with the wood ball in the lever. Based on comparing the thickness over the bloc with de Haas' averages I'd have to say it is a thin side with the scallops removed. The barrel is a 22 inch, by the way, and it balances where the barrel meets the receiver.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 05:58 PM
That would be a rifle to see in the flesh one day. I wish I could remember more about the other one I've seen like this. it's out there somewhere, but I can't recall any of the details.
Posted By: HalfaDouble Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 07:18 PM
Brent, I've found a pic of another one that a guy posted in 2014. I've asked LRF to please post it. Incidentally, mine came from the auction of the Benenson collection.
Posted By: LRF Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 07:20 PM
Posted By: HalfaDouble Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 09:11 PM
Thanks, LRF. This rifle's owner is in NY and the rifle is in a 30-30 based wildcat with Weatherby-like shoulders which he says shoots 3/4 MOA with Sierra 168 grain MKs. The metal work was by Haupage and the stocking by Farr.
Posted By: LRF Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 11:16 PM
HalfaDouble,
If you feel comfortable to do so it would be nice to see your rifle with the action and barrel metal out of the stock. And pics of the inside of the stock bedding.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/14/20 11:34 PM
Thanks for finding that pictured. I wonder how many more of these are out there?
Posted By: HalfaDouble Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/15/20 12:57 AM
Actually, the way it is working now, I'm afraid to touch it;-) It may be held by magic - what were they on in the 30s?
Posted By: keith Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/16/20 03:04 AM
Speaking of High Walls, here's yet another political post from rocky mtn bill that he posted in his latest off-topic thread in the main double gun forum today.

Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
Lloyd, Your mental gymnastics to maintain your faith in Trump must have worn you out by now. You have made an extraordinary effort to explain away his incompetence.The decision to oppose wearing a mask in order to assert your freedom from an oppressive state and thus endanger innocent people around you is a wonderful example of your conseravaturd priorities. I hope you and everyone you come in contact with get through his somehow. You might, however, consider doing something to make that a bit more likely.


For some odd reason, Billy avoids posting his anti-Trump and anti-Conservative diatribes and support for anti-gun Liberal Democrats here in the Custom Rifle forum. I suppose he just likes to hide his support for anti-gunners from his rifle buddies.

Is it any wonder that we are locked in a never ending battle to maintain our 2nd Amendment Rights when we have guys like Billy giving aid and comfort to the enemy???
Posted By: craigd Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/16/20 03:50 AM
It's not my cup of tea, but the one piece stock 1885's are interesting. There's a Martini action variant that seems to pull off the one piece stock theme well, the Zeller rook rifle.
Posted By: SKB Re: high walls in 30 US - 07/16/20 10:17 AM
I owned a spectacular little Zellar Martini rook, for about 3 hours, until I was talked out of it. I bought and sold that one right. I think they made a hammer version as well. Those are neat guns.

Steve
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