doublegunshop.com - home
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Single shot actions - 11/17/19 02:15 PM
What is the best designed vintage action for a hunting rifle? For American designs, I'd nominate the Winchester 1885.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 11/17/19 02:24 PM
Bill, that would be my choice, but arguments can be made for others too. And so I have several, but the 85 Winchester is really, really hard to beat. Very simple action, easily taken apart though it does require a screw driver. Cams the cartridge home if necessary, does not have to be cocked to lower the block, and comes up cocked when closed. Can be quite lightweight, even with a long barrel. It is my first choice in hunting and target rifles. I have several.

Close comers however are
1. Ballard #5 Pacific. Particularly nice because it carries a wiping rod. That is so useful Gemmer Sharps, Trapdoors, and Rollers emulate this feature, so it can be had on on others. I hunt an original Pacific often in the West and Alaska. Downside is that it does not cam in a sticky shell and cannot be disassembled easily in the field if you need to.

2. 1874 Sharps. Of all rifles, none are more easily field stripped. Not an essential feature but it can be nice if you end up in the drink with your gun. It does cam in a shell to some extent, but that is also somewhat limited. I have hunted my Shiloh all over, including Africa.

3. 1884 Trapdoor sporter. I don't own one of these, but I think I should. Definitely will seat a shell, may not extract too well. Doesn't wipe easily from the breach either, but I still would like to have one someday. Maybe.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 11/17/19 03:08 PM
Brent, Thanks for your reply. If I were choosing a second place design, I'd go with the Sharps Borchardt . The Ballard, '74 Sharps and the trapdoor all suffer from either weakness or excessive weight or both.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 11/17/19 03:09 PM
How about British and continental designs?
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 11/17/19 03:12 PM
I have a Borchardt. One of the most overrated rifles ever in my opinion. I don't know why everyone loves them. They take a really talented gunsmith to make the trigger acceptable (lucky for me, I know such a person), but even then, they are heavy, very difficult to disassemble and reassemble, and have no camming action on the cartridge to speak of. Extraction is fair as I recall.

I think the Ballard is much better than Borchardt. At least it is for me, but that's why we have so many choices.

Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 11/17/19 03:15 PM
I don't have enough knowledge to speak about Euro rifles. I did own a Martini 577-450 sporter that was probably a "guild gun". It was a bear to make shoot accurately, but probable just needed a custom mould that I was too cheap to commit to.

Strangely, I love American rifles but Euro shotguns. and I have almost none of the opposite combinations.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 11/17/19 03:18 PM
Brent, that moose and the Ballard make me rethink my rankings. Good on ya. Bill PS: As to the Borchardt, why would you want to take it apart?
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 11/17/19 03:24 PM
The #5 is hard to beat for a really effective rifle, but, of course, Ballards are not the most robust design. Since I only shoot blackpowder, that's really not an issue.

The Ballard is also affordable. I could ever afford a 100% original Sharps that is in good enough shape that I would hunt with it. I could find a roller, but I am not much of a fan of them for some reason.
Posted By: Glenn Fewless Re: Single shot actions - 12/19/19 06:13 AM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
How about British and continental designs?


The gold standard of the British falling block action is the Farquharson, and is the action all the rest are compared to. It is an excellent action. The Fraser is a very fine action and is my personal favorite, but I am a sucker for anything in a side lever. The Westley Richards Model '81 and '97 are both good actions, the '97 being a under lever version of the earlier side lever '81.

Perhaps the handsomest of all the British action is the Holland and Woodward action produced by Holland and Holland. It came out at the end of the falling block actions heyday and so is not a very common action. The third variation of the action is a really fine action.

The last to see the light of day was the Webley 1902, easily recognized by its odd looking under lever.

The Farquharson, both Westley Richards, the Fraser, and the Webley designs were also produced as miniature actions.

There were of course a number of other actions that were produced. One example is the Field patent action which was in production from the 1870s to the turn of the century and pretty much every house in Great Britain built rifles on it. Scott and Holland were among those. The Peabody/ Martini action is another commonly used action.

The British market preferred hammerless actions. The only commercially successful hammer action that comes to mind is the excellent Alexander Henry. It is a most handsome and graceful action.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 12/19/19 12:52 PM
Glenn, I agree the Farquharson is the one that sets the bar. I'm curious why no one, to m y knowledge, has made a modern copy of the Holland Woodward. One of my regrets is missing the chance to own one. I wish Steve Earle would take it on. I like the Fraser too. Comparing the simplicity of the 1885 Winchester with the more complicated British designs makes me appreciate the genius of Browning's action, but the profile of a Farquharson or a Fraser is hard to match for sheer elegance.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 12/19/19 12:57 PM
Bill, I think Winchesters can hold their own against Frazers and Farqs in the appearance department too. In fact, I would rate them the most handsome of all rifles bar none.

But I might be biased

Posted By: Bob Saathoff Re: Single shot actions - 12/19/19 03:06 PM
Mr. Fewless, it's been a while since you graced these pages unless I missed it. Being the astute connoiseur of fine rifles that you are, I was wondering if yo would show us some pictures of what you turned this one into?

I used to own this rifle but Glenn somehow acquired it from me and I'm sure it is in a much better form now than when I had it.

I picked this 1881 up to replace the 1897 and turned it into a nice LR BP rifle. It is one of my favorites and I like it better than the 1897.


But I've got nothing against these either.
Posted By: Glenn Fewless Re: Single shot actions - 12/19/19 06:51 PM

Actually, Mr. Earle has a third variation Holland action modeled from an action of mine. Unfortunately it is a long road from a computer model to a finished product, and Mr. Earle selfishly insists on earning a living and feeding his family, which involves making things more profitable than actions. It may happen some day, though...
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 12/19/19 06:53 PM
Bob, you have good taste and talents, especially in wood and bluing. your rifles are NEVER hard on the eyes.
Posted By: Vol423 Re: Single shot actions - 01/24/20 01:44 AM
The Sharps Borchardt is a strong and ergonomic hammerless action that makes a fine sporter. I have a .405 Win on an original action barreled by the Borchardt rifle company.
Posted By: xausa Re: Single shot actions - 01/24/20 02:46 PM
Don't forget the Stevens 44 1/2. CptCurl says if far better than I can: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....amp;Search=true
Posted By: Boltman Re: Single shot actions - 01/26/20 02:44 AM
Speaking of not forgetting one, let's not forget the Bullard.
Posted By: craigd Re: Single shot actions - 01/26/20 11:57 AM
I'm glad Cpt.C, on his nitro posting, mentioned the CPA 44 1/2. Aside from the Sharps folks, the CPA folks are about the only other that have been able to sustain quality reproduction rifle manufacturing. Many have fallen by the wayside. I also think Bullard's are one of those, never to be seen again, highlights from the single shot past.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 01/26/20 01:45 PM
The highest scores ever recorded among our local schuetzen group were fired by three different different shooters all using CPA Stevens rifles. One shooter managed the only two perfect scores on the same day. Those actions must be OK.
Posted By: james-l Re: Single shot actions - 01/27/20 04:48 AM
Stevens made the 44 I/2 in a smaller version, the 044 1/2. They were chambered for rimfire and smaller center fire cartridges.
Posted By: Remington40x Re: Single shot actions - 01/27/20 02:48 PM
I would never tout it as a “best” design for a big game rifle, but the Martini Cadet action can be made into a very attractive custom rifle chambered for the .30-30 family of cartridges or one of the wildcat .24 or .25 caliber cartridges based on the .222 family of cases. The .30-30 family of cartridges are fully capable of taking deer or black bear and were often employed to take much larger game back when they were state of art and the advent of modern bullets and powders enhances their performance. The Cadet action is a good more attractive than the full sized Martini action, at least to my eyes, being shorter and trimmer. With nice wood and engraving, it can be made into a rifle that makes its owner proud.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 01/27/20 06:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Remington40x
I would never tout it as a “best” design for a big game rifle, but the Martini Cadet action can be made into a very attractive custom rifle chambered for the .30-30 family of cartridges or one of the wildcat .24 or .25 caliber cartridges based on the .222 family of cases. The .30-30 family of cartridges are fully capable of taking deer or black bear and were often employed to take much larger game back when they were state of art and the advent of modern bullets and powders enhances their performance. The Cadet action is a good more attractive than the full sized Martini action, at least to my eyes, being shorter and trimmer. With nice wood and engraving, it can be made into a rifle that makes its owner proud.


Do your guns have safeties? I had a 577-450 guild gun which had no reasonable safety and I did not much care for that. I have seen various modifications to allow for them, but not sure how well they worked.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 01/27/20 06:46 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
The highest scores ever recorded among our local schuetzen group were fired by three different different shooters all using CPA Stevens rifles. One shooter managed the only two perfect scores on the same day. Those actions must be OK.


With regards to singleshots, I don't think that actions really make a hill of beans with regards to accuracy, but CPA knows how to barrel and chamber a rifle, so they do really well. No question about that. If they did the same to an 85 or a Sharps, it would not matter. They shoot.

craigd, you have not seen an MVA 1885 Winchester. They are near perfect. Nearer to perfect than original 1885s.
Posted By: Remington40x Re: Single shot actions - 01/27/20 06:54 PM
Brent:

I’ve owned one small frame Martini with an aftermarket safety on the rear of the. trigger guard. It blocked the trigger but nothing else. All the rest of my small frame Martinis are either varmint or target rifles, so the absence of a safety is not so much of a concern to me. If I ever get the deer rifle built on the action I have for that purpose it will have a safety of some sort.

Rem
Posted By: craigd Re: Single shot actions - 01/27/20 07:45 PM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
....craigd, you have not seen an MVA 1885 Winchester. They are near perfect. Nearer to perfect than original 1885s.

Yes, I have. I've had the suspicion they use the same basic casting made by the Shiloh foundry and also used by CSharps. In any event, I think MVA does the nicer machining and finish.

As far as I knew, MVA just sells the action? My comment about the CPA was that they built the entire rifle and have sustained production over an extended period of time. MVA had one of those actions at the Quigley shoot at an attractive price that had a minor appearing machining blemish on the upper tang. Very smooth, nicely made action that I was tempted to buy.

I agree it's how the rifle was put together and less so design related accuracy shortcomings. I don't have a CPA, but I suppose maybe some day, it's a nice option to be able to approach a company and configure a more than capable single shot. On a side unrelated note, I've never warmed up to Martini actions because I have the preference to clean from the breech end and it's easier to look down the bore, just in case.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 01/27/20 08:46 PM
craig, some Martini actions have a hole in the receiver for a cleaning rod (e.g., my old 1215 I think it was). But I am not a great martini fan. The International Marks, however are often ridiculously accurate with the barrels they used.

I think MVAs are all their own, but I never asked. They make configurations (flat springs and also take downs) that CSharps does not. I don't now where C Sharps gets their actions but I doubt the Shiloh foundry as the two do not get along well. CSharps are fine actions and as complete rifles also.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Single shot actions - 01/28/20 02:25 PM
I am a fan of the small Martini action, but it does have some limitations. Regarding a safety, the various add on safeties work, subject to individual fitting. The rifles will not fire if the underlever is slightly open, but spring tension keeps it closed enough that centerfire cartridges won't fall out( rimfire might). There are rimless extractor conversions, but single shots " belong to be chambered for a rimmed cartridge", to quote an old friend who is gone now. The actions are limited as to overall cartridge length, really a combination of OAL, diameter, and taper. For some "blown out" cartridges on 30-30 cases, it helps to turn rim diameter to .468" or less( but more than .422").The little German 5.6x50R is a great case for the cadet action. They often need firing pin bushings, however.
Mike
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: Single shot actions - 01/29/20 09:21 PM
To the best of my knowledge: MVA HWs are all machined in-house, C.Sharps machined in-house and Shilo doesn't make a HW. MVA are the only reported to have interchangeable parts...and there is no collusion or collaboration between any of the three Montana companies.
I suspect, but don't know that there might have been some shared design, programs between Ron Long and MVA(?)

My fav small, low pressure action is the flat sided Low Wall and large/high pressure the dish sided high Wall. Both of these without modern scopes because of the extreme drop of the upper tang.
For a modern, hammerless scoped rifle action the Hagn, in any size format, simply has no peer.

THE FIRST AND LAST TIME I WILL EVER PUT A MODERN SCOPE ON A HIGH WALL!


LARGE HAGN ACTION, .30-06





I have also built some handsome and accurate rifles on Dakota action, this one a .257 Roberts with proprietary trigger and trigger guard.







Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 01/30/20 01:55 AM
I wouldn't complain about any of those and I agree about the best format of a highwall, but I prefer the thick-tang, scalloped low wall simply because it feels better in my hand. A thicker wrist just works for me better for some reason. But those are hard actions to find -although MVA will be or already is making them. That said, your .22 low walls in your first rifle book were the inspiration for mine. I don't think there is a better looking cartridge rifle anywhere than the 1885 Winchester.

I have heard that the Shiloh foundary does cast actions for someone else, including highwall actions (not to be sold under the Shiloh name or even made in house after casting). I heard this before MVA came on the scene. Maybe that wasn't factual. I have not heard it from Kirk but never asked either.
Posted By: craigd Re: Single shot actions - 01/30/20 03:04 AM
I don't think the MT rifle/action makers are mixing their businesses in any way other than the two folks that sell 1885 actions are buying their raw castings from somewhere. It's been a bit, but I thought there was mention on the Boulder River forum about at least one customer maker sourcing raw castings from them?

I've wondered if Shiloh has gotten any nibbles from potential buyers. I'd guess if the right person was inclined to take the ball and run with it, splitting off the foundry might be a good bet.
Posted By: mc Re: Single shot actions - 01/30/20 04:29 AM
Bo clearke sold his hiwall moulds to I think, c sharps several years ago this is a Winchester copy not the Clarke action I don't have any idea who is making the castings. Bo mentioned this when I was in his shop in Raton new mexico.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Single shot actions - 01/30/20 02:00 PM
Buying "raw" actions up to almost complete rifles( shotguns) in not a new idea. European makers have been doing this for hundreds of years( I guess before guns they did the same with swords/spears/daggers/pikes, etc.). This is where the guns incorrectly called "Guild guns" came from.
Mike
Posted By: Bob Saathoff Re: Single shot actions - 01/30/20 04:34 PM
Originally Posted By: craigd
I don't think the MT rifle/action makers are mixing their businesses in any way other than the two folks that sell 1885 actions are buying their raw castings from somewhere. It's been a bit, but I thought there was mention on the Boulder River forum about at least one customer maker sourcing raw castings from them?

I've wondered if Shiloh has gotten any nibbles from potential buyers. I'd guess if the right person was inclined to take the ball and run with it, splitting off the foundry might be a good bet.

Craig,
Neither C.Sharps nor MVA are buying castings from anybody for their highwall receivers. C.Sharps does have a well known casting firm produce their 1875 receiver. Their 74's,77's,85's,and Heburns are all machined from billet. http://csharpsarms.com/pages/14/Manufacturing-Process.html I've been through the Shiloh factory and their subsidiary, Boulder River Foundry where all their castings are made. Boulder River does make kit form castings of highwall receivers available as mail order. I've examined MVA and C. Sharps actions at the Quigley every year they've been there and talked to them about how every thing is made. C. Sharps does use some castings like levers. The link I attached is a little dated as John is no longer active with C. Sharps because of a recent health issue.
Posted By: craigd Re: Single shot actions - 01/30/20 07:06 PM
Thanks much Bob, I should have just looked as you did. In recent years, I’ve gravitated towards the CSharps folks of the two Big Timber makers. They don’t seem to be sitting still, and offer some great services. I did a Shiloh tour just before the ‘77 came out and things were looking really fun over there. Maybe, that plane wreck put a damper on things.
Posted By: Carl Baird Re: Single shot actions - 04/17/20 04:58 PM
Ok, I'm really late in this discussion, but here goes. I think the most beautiful single shot rifle made in America is the Hopkins and Allen 922. I own 3 of them and although mine were all .22's, I have hopped mine up to 25-20 and it shoots like a dream. Most of the barrels standard on the gun were extremely thick walled and the 25-20 conversion was pretty simple. I also had some engraving done on the sides of the receiver and it's very pleasing to the eye.
Brent, no pics, but if interested, can I send to you?
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 04/17/20 05:38 PM
You can always send my pictures of guns to post. Happy to do it.

The H&A 922 was partnered with the H&A 925, as I recall and it had exactly that 25-20 chamber (I am not sure which flavor of .25-20 however).

My H&A 722 was a fine gun in its own right and the 922 was a good cut above that, but many that I have seen have action problems. Worn parts I think. I have wondered how well they were made, metalurgically.
Posted By: old colonel Re: Single shot actions - 04/17/20 06:18 PM
Not in the same class as others posted earlier.

This is a Belgian made gun, I believe based on proof marks, in a misc. .318 bore caliber

I do not know the actual design patent, though I suspect it is a copy of a cadet Martini. If you know better I am open to suggestion?













Posted By: Colonial Re: Single shot actions - 04/17/20 06:31 PM
Please send it to me for close-up evaluation.......
Sorta copy, but not quite. Cadets were made on the Francotte frame. where everything came out the bottom in one unit.
This uses the pivot pin, more like some German rifles, and only sorta Greenerish, with the side safety.
Lovely.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 04/17/20 07:12 PM
Nice engraving. Why do Martini variants have more than their fair share of imaginative artwork? Perhaps it is that 1/2 acre of open fields that make up their starboard and port.
Posted By: Vall Re: Single shot actions - 04/20/20 12:44 AM
As much as I love my Ballard rifles, and would choose them over most others; I think the finest single shot 1800's American designed action is the Remington Hepburn. Not only is it extremely strong, but the side lever has huge advantages over any of the underlever designs from other makers.
Being able to open or close the action by means of the side lever will allow a hunter to load and unload without rolling the rifle to it's side if he's got any interference below. It also allows the shooter to open/close the action without changing his hold.
And then there's the sheer strength of the Hepburn design that's as strong as any other American made single, and stronger than many also.
I love my Ballards, but I'd still choose one of my Hepburn rifles for a strictly hunting rifle.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 04/20/20 01:18 AM
Vall,
I don't think I can agree with that assessment of the Hepburn. It is strong. But that's all. So are any of the Sharps models, the 1885 Winchester and even rolling blocks. The side lever may be convenient, but they aren't great for dealing with stuck cases which are a fact of life sooner or later. Nor do they chamber a recalcitrant cartridge.

I don't see any advantage to opening and closing "... without changing his hold". After all, he will have to extract and then thumb in a cartridge with one hand or the other. Typically, the right hand does this for all right handed Hepburn shooters I know, and that's a fair number. I do not see a single ergonomic advantage to them among all the rifles on the BPCR and BPTR firing lines.

They are a fine, if odd looking and fitting, rifle. But I don't think they have anything on a Model 1885 Singleshot - which is also a heck of a lot better looking in my opinion.

When it comes to single shot hammer rifles, I don't think the American guns take a backseat to anyone. I just prefer the Winchester over all the others. Good as they are.
Posted By: Chuckster Re: Single shot actions - 04/20/20 02:42 AM
Will enter this discussion between two experts who have probably handled more SS rifles than I have seen.
Once you have handled a Ballard at the range or in the field, all the other rifles seem clumsy.
Yes, the others work and are stronger, but the Ballard is certainly adequate for most situations.
Chuck
Posted By: craigd Re: Single shot actions - 04/20/20 03:27 AM
I've never personally owned a Hepburn, but the right one or three or four will follow me home some time. I'm not worried about it. Much as I can understand what a great action the 1885 is, I just perceive them as being relatively common. I wouldn't be overly broken up about stumbling on a bargain original Sharps '77, but I suppose I'm not holding my breath on that one.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 04/20/20 12:39 PM
Craigd there is a very nice original long range 77 for sale on Morphys. Go for it.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 04/20/20 12:48 PM
Chuck, other than the generally very nice triggers on Ballards, I don't find them any better handling and they do have constraints on how they can be cocked without breakage. Winchesters can be operated from any po position and are very conveniently cocked on closing.

I have liked my Ballards, but not moreso than any others. However, You are not alone on you love of Ballards.
Posted By: waterman Re: Single shot actions - 04/20/20 07:35 PM
This thread has been going for a spell and I'm late to it. I'm not a hunter, but in my healthier days I was an out-in-the-woods forester. Kept a Krag behind the truck seat. I'm also a single shot fanatic and view those who hunt with single shots as still hunters, stalkers and woods walkers.

I have an original Alexander Henry. Big hammer, easy & quiet to cock, great single trigger, OK extraction, but carry bent-nosed pliers and a multi-piece cleaning rod in your possible bag.

I think one of Steve Earle's would make up into an ideal big game hunting rifle.
Posted By: Vall Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 03:30 AM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Vall,
I don't think I can agree with that assessment of the Hepburn. It is strong. But that's all. So are any of the Sharps models, the 1885 Winchester and even rolling blocks. The side lever may be convenient, but they aren't great for dealing with stuck cases which are a fact of life sooner or later. Nor do they chamber a recalcitrant cartridge.

I don't see any advantage to opening and closing "... without changing his hold". After all, he will have to extract and then thumb in a cartridge with one hand or the other. Typically, the right hand does this for all right handed Hepburn shooters I know, and that's a fair number. I do not see a single ergonomic advantage to them among all the rifles on the BPCR and BPTR firing lines.

They are a fine, if odd looking and fitting, rifle. But I don't think they have anything on a Model 1885 Singleshot - which is also a heck of a lot better looking in my opinion.

When it comes to single shot hammer rifles, I don't think the American guns take a backseat to anyone. I just prefer the Winchester over all the others. Good as they are.



I have no idea what a "recalcitrant cartridge" is? So can't even address that.
Louis L Hepburn was a consummate shooter, and especially a long range shooter, having been a member of the first US Creedmoor team. And after his time shooting longrange he immediately set to building a better single shot action to improve upon the Rolling Blocks that half the US team shot at Creedmoor. The Hepburn is a shooter's gun, designed to be strong, and most efficient for the shooter to use. It's side lever was designed specifically to make shooting easier for the shooter, and it most certainly does.
As for stuck cartridges, I've owned single shot rifles for decades in every configuration and maker and to date never had a cartridge that was stuck in any of them that opening the lever, (even a Hepburn lever) wouldn't pop it free. And the extractor on a Hepburn has a snapping motion more like an ejector, so when you open a Hepburn it's likely the case will eject, so you wont be fumbling to draw a empty out, you'll be grabbing a loaded round to chamber.
A Hepburn is much easier to maintain your position, even when you eject the case and insert a loaded round because you have no under lever requiring clearance. Now if you're shooting offhand that's not as much of an issue, but just swinging your thumb away from the top tang and swiping the side lever down is certainly less movement, and much faster than opening up any under lever. I bet I can unload and reload my Hepburn faster than you do your High Wall, and likely have another shot off before the High Wall shooter has chambered a round. When hunting, that's a real plus if a 2nd shot is needed.
As for strength, I love Rolling Block rifles, but would NEVER put them in the same class as the group of single shits you listed it with! They're far weaker than all the rest in that group.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But the original question wasn't about which made the most beautiful hunting rifle? If it was my answer would have been the Ballard rifles I love. But a Hepburn is beautiful to my eyes, and it's still my favorite action for a hunting rifle.
Posted By: Vall Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 03:35 AM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Chuck, other than the generally very nice triggers on Ballards, I don't find them any better handling and they do have constraints on how they can be cocked without breakage. Winchesters can be operated from any po position and are very conveniently cocked on closing.

I have liked my Ballards, but not moreso than any others. However, You are not alone on you love of Ballards.


I suppose you do have to be smart enough to not cock the hammer and then try to open your Ballard. But not sure that says much for the owner/shooter of a gun?
Some would say cocking on closing can be dangerous, because you have to be smart enough to not leave it cocked after closing the action. That's not a good selling point for a hunting rifle. It's also why Winchester dropped that feature in later models.
Posted By: prairie ghost Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 03:41 AM
For Waterman, Steve Earl Wesson. Lots of potential for a hunting rifle.
Posted By: Vall Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 03:41 AM
Originally Posted By: craigd
I've never personally owned a Hepburn, but the right one or three or four will follow me home some time. I'm not worried about it. Much as I can understand what a great action the 1885 is, I just perceive them as being relatively common. I wouldn't be overly broken up about stumbling on a bargain original Sharps '77, but I suppose I'm not holding my breath on that one.


Besides being common, the 1885 was also very late to the game. One of the last single shot rifles to be offered by an American gun maker. All the other makers had been at it for many years prior to Winchester finally buying Browning's patent.
And there's a fun story behind Winchester's evolution into single shot rifles. Their Western salesman sent a telegraph to the factory telling them he was having trouble competing with the other big sellers of single shot rifles because those single shot rifles chambered big heavy cartridges capable of taking the largest game easily. He went on to point out one gun in particular as a tough gun to beat. He said every hunter he ran into was carrying a Ballard Pacific out West. I have no idea if the salesman was exaggerating, but the Pacific certainly was the best selling single shot rifle out West, and one of Marlins best selling of the many Ballard variations.
In the Jan. 1896 issue of Shooting and Fishing magazine one reader wrote, "We riflemen want a double set trigger rifle about the lines of a Ballard Pacific, and don't let the manufacturer forget it.-wiping rod under the barrel and all."
That was 6 years after Marlin had ceased building all Ballard models.
Posted By: LRF Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 12:28 PM
My personnel choice overall is the Fraser side lever actions. I can find no significant negatives with them.
I also like the Ballards for looks and handling.
The Hepburns have many attributes but in the area of nice flowing lines pretty much fail in that arena.

All of my comments are purely my thoughts and opinions
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 12:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Vall
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Chuck, other than the generally very nice triggers on Ballards, I don't find them any better handling and they do have constraints on how they can be cocked without breakage. Winchesters can be operated from any po position and are very conveniently cocked on closing.

I have liked my Ballards, but not moreso than any others. However, You are not alone on you love of Ballards.


I suppose you do have to be smart enough to not cock the hammer and then try to open your Ballard. But not sure that says much for the owner/shooter of a gun?
Some would say cocking on closing can be dangerous, because you have to be smart enough to not leave it cocked after closing the action. That's not a good selling point for a hunting rifle. It's also why Winchester dropped that feature in later models.


Of course, most people, almost as a reflex, put their hammer to half cock before lowering the block of a falling block, so there is that. Not necessary with a Winchester, but it won't break your gun like it will a Ballard. In heat of the moment over a half-dead moose, I can imagine doing that. I didn't however, so my Ballard was just fine, but it has happened to many.

Cocking on closing is the norm for so many guns, all the multishooter lever guns that I'm aware of, for instance. Winchester among them. Many a break action shotgun and all pump guns have the same feature. Add bolt rifles to that list also. I suppose there are a few that find that a problem, "but not sure that says much for the owner/shooter of a gun?"

No, Winchester did not drop that feature, they made a few that came up at halfcock for special order for those "not smart enough" to deal with a whole cock. In the field, but especially in a match, that cock on closing is sure darn nice. And speedy too if the clock comes into play.

Winchesters also lack the lovely "permanent disablement feature" that a Ballard can have if and when the clamshell block screw backs out a turn or two. There is a least one or two such infamous guns hanging on barroom walls around the West. I am sure you have heard of them.

The Winchester 1885 was going to be pretty much the death sentence for the Marlin Ballard, if only they had hung on that long. Lots of good reasons for that. But everyone is entitled to their own favorite, and in my opinion, the Singleshot was and is still the best singleshot rifle in the world. Frasers are darn nice though, as are many others, including Ballards. Nothing wrong with being second place once in a while. smile

As for the recalcitrant cartridge, I'll leave that to your imagination. I have no doubt you know exactly what I mean.
Posted By: SKB Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 01:05 PM
I like Fraser action but the extraction is very weak.

I'm biased though, a Gibbs guy through and through with a weak spot for the Holland Woodward action.

This is a late sporting action and will shortly become a .303 British. I lucked out on several aspects when acquiring this action, over all very good condition with just some minor issues needing attention. The real stroke of luck was having an original sporter stocked Gibbs in (only 4 serial numbers earlier) the shop at the same time to take a stock pattern from. Both rifles will be chronicled here as they progress.

Posted By: Bob Saathoff Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 01:53 PM

I have no idea what a "recalcitrant cartridge" is? So can't even address that.
Louis L Hepburn was a consummate shooter, and especially a long range shooter, having been a member of the first US Creedmoor team. And after his time shooting longrange he immediately set to building a better single shot action to improve upon the Rolling Blocks that half the US team shot at Creedmoor. The Hepburn is a shooter's gun, designed to be strong, and most efficient for the shooter to use. It's side lever was designed specifically to make shooting easier for the shooter, and it most certainly does.
As for stuck cartridges, I've owned single shot rifles for decades in every configuration and maker and to date never had a cartridge that was stuck in any of them that opening the lever, (even a Hepburn lever) wouldn't pop it free. And the extractor on a Hepburn has a snapping motion more like an ejector, so when you open a Hepburn it's likely the case will eject, so you wont be fumbling to draw a empty out, you'll be grabbing a loaded round to chamber.
A Hepburn is much easier to maintain your position, even when you eject the case and insert a loaded round because you have no under lever requiring clearance. Now if you're shooting offhand that's not as much of an issue, but just swinging your thumb away from the top tang and swiping the side lever down is certainly less movement, and much faster than opening up
any under lever. I bet I can unload and reload my Hepburn faster than you do your High Wall, and likely have another shot off before the High Wall shooter has chambered a round.
When hunting, that's a real plus if a 2nd shot is needed.

As far as Hepburn designing the rifle to be easier to handle in a match with the side lever, not losing position, etc. just doesn't fly but if it is mentioned enough by writers and forums, then it must be true. They are all missing one big point as they are comparing today's matches with those of yesteryear.
Few people understand that during the first matches each side only used two targets. Shooters got into position, fired their shot and then got up and returned to a table where they did the wiping out and reloading. Most shot from the supine position so there is no design feature in the Hepburn that helped the shooter fire his shot. Good features where the center hung hammer and faster lock time. The lower breechblock may have aided in wiping out but it really wasn't necessary.
I've owned two Hepburns and shot them in matches where the breechblock wouldn't come down without almost having to use a mallet to open it. I have had many recalcitrant cartridges during matches that are shot with time constraints and not having enough time to wipe out. Another feature of the Hepburn that I don't like is that the rifle has a lot more movement due to torque. It's probably because of the stock design.
I don't shoot as much as Brent,but I probably average 3 long range matches a year. Now that age has crept up on me, it's more about shooting rifles that I have built than being able to do well. I have shot my best with a Borchardt and my Deeley & Edge probably because they ride the sticks so well.I have not used a highwall in LR matches but it is my go to rifle for gong matches. Great extraction and camming action.

This all coming from a recalcitrant curmudgeon sitting home and watching the shooting season go down the @#$%$#@.

P.S. A friend and shooter, unless he is having a bad day, kicks butt with his Hepburn.


Posted By: LRF Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 02:13 PM
Generally speaking all single shots have weaker extraction then say a Win M70 or Mauser 98. Basically, saying that it is a relative attribute compared with all the other desired feature and looks. Bolt guns are not Single shots and vice verse.
Personally my Fraser in Win 405 has never let me down, just saying.
I also like the Gibbs, just being a little more bulky then Mr. Fraser's design.


Hmmm, I can see the connection to shooting:
re·cal·ci·trant
adjective
having an obstinately uncooperative attitude toward authority or discipline.
"a class of recalcitrant fifteen-year-olds"

noun
a person (or cartridge) with an obstinately uncooperative attitude.

smile
Posted By: Vall Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 02:31 PM
You can not break a Ballard hammer by opening the action in half cock!!! A Ballard hammer automatically goes into half cock upon opening the lever! But on a Ballard half cock is NOT the same position as most other makers. It is just far enough back to keep the hammer off the firing pin, and most people don't even realize it is in half cock automatically. So there's no way to put a Ballard in half cock and break a hammer. Just totally false.
Ballard rifles were one of the most popular competitive rifles of the late 1800's and early 1900's, and even when Marlin stopped producing them in 1890 they were selling extremely well. Marlin did not stop making the Ballard because of Winchester entering the market in 1885. They stopped because John Marlin was a 5% owner of the Ballard patent, and the majority of profits went to others holding the 95%. And his lever action repeating rifles were selling faster than he could build them; which gave him 100% of the profits. Simple math told him to drop the Ballard, and not a fear of competition from Winchester. There are documented letters written to gun magazines back then lamenting Marlin's choice to drop the manufacture of the Ballard rifle. And it's use and customization for many decades after it ended are good examples of how well loved it has been by shooters.
As for Hepburns, I still would choose mine over the High Wall, or my much loved Rolling Blocks. Just my preference, and opinion on the original question asked.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 05:17 PM
Harry Pope had opinions about this topic. John Campbell quotes a 1930 letter where Pope says, " That I think the Win. SS best is proved by the fact that I abandoned Ballards after shooting them for 8 years and since 1892, except for the time I was with the Stevens CO. and obliged to shoot their junk,all the fine shooting I have done for years was with the Win." He then quotes Townsend Whelen, " I consider this the strongest and most reliable rifle action ever made..." Pope of course is talking about target shooting, and Whelen about experimental cartridge development. For hunting rifles, the advantage of the HW seems clear.
Posted By: LRF Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 05:22 PM
"....obliged to shoot their junk,"....Harry Pope tell us how you really feel? LOL smile
Posted By: craigd Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 06:05 PM
Something makes me think that by 1930 the heyday Schuetzen style single shot shooting had past, and that Pope's approach may have been influenced by his concept of marketing? I don't think there's much doubt that by that date both he and Whelen knew the technical capabilities of the bolt action.

And, if Sam is out there, thanks much for the little engravers gallery down south on the makers forums.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 07:09 PM
LRF, Pope doesn't have any thing to say about how I feel. I'm just letting Pope speak for himself. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Pope.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 07:17 PM
Craig, If you think Pope had a concept of marketing, you need to go back and bone up on Pope. My only point here is that if Pope thinks the Winchester action is the most accurate, and if Whelen thinks it's the strongest ever, then I say it's the best vintage American action for a hunting rifle.
Posted By: LRF Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 07:46 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
LRF, Pope doesn't have any thing to say about how I feel. I'm just letting Pope speak for himself. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Pope.


What??? My comment was making a joke about what Pope said calling Stevens guns junk. He and Stevens did not have a good relationship at all and I was making fun of that. Haven't you ever heard anyone say "tell us how you really feel" after someone makes a pointed comment about someone else or something???? My post I assure you had nothing to do with you.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 08:05 PM
LRF, My misunderstanding. No ruffeled feathers here.
Posted By: Vall Re: Single shot actions - 04/21/20 10:25 PM
Anything Pope said about Stevens has to be tainted by his bad repoir with the company he worked for. He left on very poor terms and never had anything good to say about them.
As for his comments on Winchester, they too are slightly tainted by his wonderful relationship with Winchester, and their willingness to sell him just about anything he ordered in any configuration he wanted. One of the only companies who would sell Pope bored and unrifled barrels, and even complete guns with nothing but a hole down the bore for Harry to finish later.
But although Pope did indeed switch to Winchester 1885, evidence shows he built far more barrels for Ballard rifles than he did for all the others combined. So Harry may have chosen Winchester 1885's, but his customers greatly favored the Marlin Ballard.
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: Single shot actions - 05/01/20 07:27 PM
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 05/10/20 11:18 PM
A comment about HW actions: I think the best of the best might be what I assume were the ones Sedgley bought from Winchester when production of them ended. These were thick wall, center fire, coil spring receivers. I've been lucky to find a couple of them. One is now a 30-06R and the other 7x65R.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 05/11/20 12:55 AM
Bill, I've always preferred flat spring actions. And I greatly prefer scalloped or "thin side" highwalls. I also prefer scalloped lowwalls for appearances sake and better balance. But scalloped low walls are not "thin" of course. I'm not alone in that, though both types are common on the line. My best '85s use both flat and coil.

I can't think of why the last ones would be better than any of the others.

My current 85s are .45-70, 40-65, 38-72, and .22 rf (lowwall)
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 05/11/20 01:00 AM
Bill, I've always preferred flat spring actions. And I greatly prefer scalloped or "thin side" highwalls. I also prefer scalloped lowwalls for appearances sake and much better balance and handling. But scalloped low walls are not "thin" of course. I'm not alone in those preferences, although all types are common on the line. My best '85s use both flat and coil.

I can't think of why the last ones would be better than any of the others.

My current 85s are .45-70, 40-65, 38-72, and .22 rf (lowwall)
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 05/11/20 06:22 PM
Brent, The latest HWs had a smaller diameter firing pin, and the thick wall actions are stronger ,not that strength is an issue. Since I wanted to build some modern caliber rifles, these actions just seemed the best I could use. As for the others, I like them just fine and have several. My calibers include 22 LR(2) , 219 Zipper. 219 DW, 30 krag (2), 30-06, 7x65R, 405 WCF, and 45-70. As for mainsprings, I don't know where the advantage lies, if there is one. The coil spring actions had the lightened hammer but I don't know how much difference that makes.
Posted By: Ken Nelson Re: Single shot actions - 05/11/20 07:33 PM
Since my SC shooting has been shut down due to the plague, I've been doing a little shooting out the back door. Target frame is about 20 feet short of a 100 yds... but at least I'm pulling the trigger. cool



Original M/D in .32 Miller Short....traditional? Not so much but great for punching paper.




A bit more traditional... HiWall .32-40 and equally adept dependent on the operator.
http://

10 shot groups.
http://
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 05/11/20 11:27 PM
Bill, I have heard different people say that coils are faster than flat springs and vice versa. To be safe, some of mine use both. I find light and heavy hammers in all models, but hammers get swapped around so much, it's hard to know what the truth is. I have one custom hammer that floats amongst my rifles.

Block styles are another thing that moves around between rifles, especially the lowwalls.

They are plenty strong without being obsessively heavy. Winchester used them for many years as their test bed for newer, more powerful cartridges.

All in all, the 1885 is the very pinnacle of American rifle making. Of world rifle making for that matter. But that's just my opinion.

Pin hole size is an issue to some, but I do not dabble in smokeless, so I don't really care, except it means I need twice as many spare pins.
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: Single shot actions - 05/13/20 11:29 PM
I have a complete flat-side Low Wall in .32 Short I'm thinking of letting go of. #47465, Contact me if interested?
Posted By: craigd Re: Single shot actions - 05/14/20 02:14 AM
Yup, me too bill, are you planning on hunkering through the fall season? Hey, not long ago I reeled in my best smallie in years in your great home state. I had the sense right when it hit, nice size female right off her bed. Didn't really mean to do that, got her eased back in looking nice and perky.

You've seen the numbers, good reason is here ain't it? The pajama crowd at wally mart never missed a beat, the ppe of choice of insincere shelter in placers.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 05/14/20 01:04 PM
I plan to spend a lot of the fall out of doors. Last hunting season was mostly deer and elk. I want to do some bird hunting this coming season if I'm still here and able. I've heard encouraging news about pheasants this spring. I'm not into bucket lists, but I really would like to shoot a bird or two with a muzzle- loader. Cheers.
Posted By: craigd Re: Single shot actions - 05/14/20 01:44 PM
I know it’s regional and there’re many factors I’ll never understand, but I’ve been seeing an unusually high number of incidental pheasant while out doing other stuff. The waterfowl seem(?) to be doing there thing up in the potholes. Maybe, last winter was relatively mild, doesn’t mean anything, but I haven’t noticed quite as many predators. Maybe, I have to get my eyes checked.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Single shot actions - 05/14/20 05:56 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
I plan to spend a lot of the fall out of doors. Last hunting season was mostly deer and elk. I want to do some bird hunting this coming season if I'm still here and able. I've heard encouraging news about pheasants this spring. I'm not into bucket lists, but I really would like to shoot a bird or two with a muzzle- loader. Cheers.


Muzzleloading for pheasants is a PITA in my opinion, but several friends do not share that opinion and do it regularly. The one thing that makes this bearable for a cartridge shooter is for the muzzleloader guy to be very well versed in how he is going to reload in the field. NOthing is worse than waiting on a muzzleloader to reload while the dogs are hot, the birds are running, and the moment is at hand.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Single shot actions - 05/14/20 06:21 PM
Brent, I wouldn't expect a partner to wait on me. And in my experience from the past few years, finding birds is the challenge, not loading fast enough to get them all.
© The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com