Fred will be along to post some photos for me. They show 4 S man rifles and an interesting thing has come up. The ones with the long slide Lyman 48 do not have the carving on the borders of the checkering pattern. Those with the post 1920 shorter slide do have the carving. My theory is that S man graduated to the carving later in his working time. I have found 3 additional guns which fall into the same pattern. Anyone out there with additional guns which may agree or disagree with this theory? Of course he could have still used a long slide on a later gun.
Dan
Here they are, I've numbered them to make the discussion a bit easier
picture #1
picture #2
Picture #3
Picture #4
Picture #5
Picture #6
Picture #7
Picture #8
Picture #9
Forgive my total ignorance here. I'm sure I must have missed something. But who is "S man," or where does the term come from?
That oak leaf carving on the borders of the checkering is really starting to grow on me.
The S-man name was one that Michael Petrov put on these rifles made by an unknown maker until he could figure out who the maker was. But unfortunately the maker is still unknown. I'm sure the S came from the pistol grip shape. I remember how excited Michael was when I sent him photos of the first one I got as it was something like the 5th one he had seen. He later got the one with the scope shown in the photos that I got from his auction.
Dan
Thank you DanLH. That's an interesting story. These rifles certainly show a distinctive style. Hopefully someone will be able to connect them with a name. Any idea as to which region of the country they're from?
H47,
I don't think we have established a part of the country where these were made. My first one (picture 9) came from CA but the widow who sold it said her husband had bought it at Paul Jaeger's shop in PA. I think Michael's rifle with scope came out of WA state. The one with the poorly repaired stock came from TX. I just got the full stocked one and I will see where the seller may have found it. I know one of the Kornbrath engraved ones came out of IL and I will try to find out where another of the engraved ones was found. I don't know if Michael's papers have any more info about where the rifles have turned up.
Dan
DanLH, that's a pretty wide geographic distribution. I've been thinking about this a lot, with no particular conclusions though. The style is certainly distinctive and should be easy to identify in other guns if need be. For a couple of things, the contour transition between the point of the comb and top of the grip is much more gradual in your examples than those from other makers, but seems very consistent here. The contour at the ejection port is likewise more along the lines of an armory stock. And the S shape of the grip bottom is very different from others.. also more "heavy handed" and obvious if you will.
It can be tricky to tell from the photos, but the checkering appears to use a 3 1/2 to 1 proportion diamond, and this appears consistent too. The other example from James - I seems to have a 3:1 proportion. Not the same maker. The checkering is oddly proportioned and located, less delicate and artistic than from other makers, and includes a lot of surface,area. I might tentatively conclude from all this a few things.... I don't think this guy was a "master" although he may have worked around or been influenced by one. From the quality of the checkering and consistency of style, I would conclude that he was a good "mechanic" but somewhat lacked an artistic sense of shaoe, design, and proportion, at least to the extent exhibited by the better known makers of the time.
So he may have been locally or maybe regionally known, but never achieved top status. He might have worked as a carver in the furniture industry for example, copying patterns provided by others. Or maybe in some other aspect of wood working, and did gunstocks as a sideline. It would be hard to identify his styles as "Germanic" for example, although a bit easier to consider it a bit primitive or self taught in the "Grandma Moses" sense. And imho the style is rather unlike anything else from the era.
I'm sure at some point it will be possible to identify a certain area or individual. I hope so anyway. I will assume that these have been disassembled and that there are no helpful stamps or inscriptions inside..
Another option might be to try to research the serial numbers,for old sales records. I see that Springfield Research Service does this for $65 per number plus cost of a magazine subscription.. might reveal to whom the original metal was sold. If a common location could be found, that would be a great start .
The rifle with the highest serial number is the one with the scope and it was a 1920 NM rifle (serial in Mk1 series but not Mk1 receiver) and the SRS sales list starts with higher serial numbers than the Mk1s. I don't believe there are any known sales records for the NRA sales rifles from before WW1 from which many of these early sporters were made.
Dan
I'm 99% sure that all the S-man rifles I've seen have been stocked in black walnut. That is a rather amateurish trait, as most top makers had access to English. The style is obviously German, but I don't think S-man trained in Germany or, again, he would likely be using English walnut.
The execution on these rifles is excellent. When these earliest rifles were being made style had not been established yet, so we can't really hold style against him.
If I were on TV making a profile of this guy I'd say he had access to and appreciated the best rifles being made at the time, at the very least photographs. The skill displayed on them says he knows his way around a chisel, maybe a cabinet maker or such. The black walnut makes me think he may have had access to a cheap supply. Again, maybe a cabinetmaker with a relationship with a sawmill etc.
Just some thoughts
Dan, are there clear pictures of the jeweling of the bolts? The one pictured, #657,895 together with the use of Black Walnut, full checkering coverage, and the shape of the grip would point me to early John Oberlies. Oberlies was an exceptional mechanic and machinist, but his earlier identified guns were more crude and possibly unmarked. Of course, there should have been a transition period. My earliest Oberlies gun was built in 1934 and exhibits less than his best work of the next few years. I have seen earlier guns that were quite crude. I don't think Michael had much of a file of pictures of Oberlies guns to compare the S Man guns to. He and I were planning to get together to do an Oberlies chapter in his next book, but, sadly, we didn't get to it. The Oberlies gun sold in the auction was not a full Oberlies custom, but a conversion of a military stock. He had not owned that gun for long when he died and possibly did not do a comparison with S Man guns. I wish I knew more. Bill Murphy in MD.
I think the 2 rifles I have and the ones Dan has were made by different men. The S shape on the pistol grips was common on earlier single shot rifles and higher grade lever action guns. when I removed the buttplate on #657895 it was obvious that it was probably made from a blank,it was marked in pencil; 2285611, RJB and ODL. When is anybodies guess, also the buttplate is identical to the ones used on Fox shotguns from pre WW1 to the 1920s. There was nothing under the buttplate on gun #2 and the plate was not original as it didn't fit well. The 2 guns were made by the same person and probably made by the maker of the gun in Michaels book.
Bill,
Good to hear from you again, I haven't made it to Baltimore the last two years. The 657,895 rifle belongs to James. None of my S-man rifles has any bolt jeweling but I do have an Oberlies bolt (just the bolt).
Dan
Any markings on your Oberlies bolt? Maybe it's the scope bolt for my 03 which will not allow a scope to be used with the bolt that came with the gun. However, I will not bend my bolt. How about giving me a shot at that bolt? Thanks. Bill Murphy
Dan, now I recall that the bolt I need to make my rifle funtional with a scope is a Model 54 Winchester, not an 03 Springfield. However I would be interested in your bolt, whatever it is. Thanks. Bill
Bill,
I don't really want to get rid of the bolt. But Fred has some photos of it that he can post so people can see the Oberlies jeweling, etc. The bolt is for an 03 and is bent for a scope.
Dan
I forgot to mention that I had no luck finding out what part of the country the full stocked S-man came from. The seller had it for so many years he couldn't remember where he got it.
Dan
Dan, keep me on the list.
How about an S-man rifle with a pistol grip cap and no S curve on the PG? Fred will be along soon with some photos. Without the S on the PG, the rifle does have a number of S-man characteristics like the use of American walnut, the cheek piece, the checkered flat top on the bolt knob, the rounded pattern at the back of the PG checkering, a panel of checkering between the PG and forend and the modification of the tang.
An S man without the S??? Shall we call him "Man"?
Nice rifle Dan!
That such a talented man is lost in time is sad to me. I hope you can piece together this mystery. Material used may not rise to what we consider the best available but the style and workmanship certainty are. Love to know who did this work and why he remained so anonymous.
KY Jon, my friend, the S Man guns we are looking at are a bit less than what we would like to look at in this era. However, for research purposes, we welcome all information. The extremely talented John Oberlies did not seem to use any English Walnut in his projects, but the results of his work are wonderful.
