I just got these parts for my long-range muzzleloader. I was up against some significant time constraints and he turned this around for me in a week and a half or so, including shipping time. told him I wanted something appropriate to a Henry-like rifle and, at least as far as I'm concerned, I think he did a great job.

Now to find someone to case color it.

Pretty darn nice!

Very handsome.

Who did the work? I think he needs to be acknowledged.

Jerry Liles

I like the restraint shown here--elegant and not "busy." Bravo to the artist and his patron!

I can't believe I didn't put his name on the first post. He is Tim Halloran, of Blue Grass, Iowa.

He did a rifle for a friend and I liked it and so I had him do this, and I like this much better actually. I think it is just about perfect for this rifle.

This is the rifle. I've shot it twice now in the white. This time it will be completely done.

This is a .45 caliber false-muzzle rifle with an 18 twist barrel and Pope rifling. It shoots very, very well.


Say, that brings me to another question. I need to blue some screws, nitre/fire blue would be best for most of them. However, buying some nitre from Brownells seems darn pricey for a once in a half decade user like myself. So, I have always opted to hold them in molten lead until they are just about right and then dunk in oil. I often have to do some screws 2-3 times to get it just right.

Any other, better ideas?

I've fire blued screw heads by holding them in the gas flame of a stove till they reached the proper color. Practice with some bits of polished steel first. If you take them out at the proper color you won't have damaged them.

Jerry Liles

BrentD,
I like the put together pic even more then the first one.

What is your load, bullet and powder, if I may ask? Patched or grease groove bullet? Are you using any wadding? What kind of groups have you been able to obtain so far? (I understand you probably have not done much load development so far)

I also have a very similar rifle I built although mine is more of a sporting rifle configuration.

I will probably leadpot them again. It is pretty easy to control temperatures that way, but I was wondering if there was a better idea.

The load for this rifle is a 513 grs 16:1 Prolate paper patched bullet. It backed by an LDPE wad and 82 grs of Swiss 1.5, ignited by an RWS cap. When I got it to the point you see it above, I took it to Oak Ridge and shot their 2-day spring match with it. I was just fooling around, not really expecting to do well at all, but I got hot right off the bat and went into full bore match mode and managed to win the whole thing. Since then I only shot it once more (last year's OR match) and I'll do it again this year in March. I intend to take it to Australia for the World match in 2017, as I have been invited to join the USA team.

This rifle was years in the making (I built it as my "tenure rifle" but I was a full prof before it was finished). The barrel and false muzzle was made by Bobby Hoyt, many other people contributed to it at different points along the way.

Does anyone have a case colorer to recommend who is fast in the turnaround? I am trying to avoid Classic Guns in Illinois after what happened with the 95 Marlin I sent them, but I don't know if someone like Turnbull can turn around the parts in 3 weeks or less. I have a note in to them yesterday. Whoever I choose they have to do it well or I'll end up wearing that bolster in my forehead. As pretty as it is, I don't like that sort of jewelry.

Brent

I bought a couple of bottles of Gordon's stump remover granules for a few bucks a bottle. There was a couple of varieties of the Gordon's, one which was a certain % of Sodium Nitrate (salt peter) and another that was 100% pure Sodium Nitrate. The pure stuff is what I bought. I picked up a steel bread pan from Goodwill for around $1.00, tested on some steel and proceeded to nitre blue some screws and pins and have used it a few other times over the years.

I read about using stump remover here a number of years ago and it works. If you have a propane burner, then you'll not have much money into the project.

Now there is a really cool idea. I wonder if it still exists and if I can find some? I will start looking, thanks!
Brent

Cameron, Saltpeter is Potassium nitrate. It is the chemical used in blackpowder as the oxidizer is I remember correctly.
"Major uses of potassium nitrate are in fertilizers, tree stump removal, rocket propellants and fireworks..."

I believe near 100% potassium nitrate stump killer can work well, but I think it may be important to use a good thermometer and be able to hold a consistent temperature. Could be a good way to temper smaller parts after hardening too, if the temp can be controlled.

I have a decent thermometer or two, and what about using a 10# lead melting pot? I can adjust and hold temps pretty well that way I think.

I will be looking for the stump killer stuff It see it is 99% KNO3

Brent,

I would think that the lead melting pot would work well and probably be less finicky than the propane burner I've used.

It is important to hold a consistent temperature and with the propane, it seems one needs to constantly monitor and adjust the flame to maintain the constant temperatures needed.

As Craig mentions, a good thermometer is a must, one that registers up to around 800 degrees. The temp needs to be darn hot (around 750 degrees) and certainly the necessary precautions need to be taken when working with a molten substance.

I believe I bought the Gordon's at The Home Depot, but it or other brands can probably be found at a variety of hardware stores.

My bad on the Sodium Nitrate....I meant to say Potassium nitrate. Thanks for the correction LRF, certainly don't want to steer someone to the wrong chemical!

If it were me, I don't know if the lead pot would be questionable for casting afterwards. The melted stump stuff can be used over and over again, so it could be a good idea to dedicate one pot for it and just leave it in there.

I know many folks do it, but I'd rather use gas burners around bluing type salts than electric wiring and elements. It may just be me, but the life seems to be shortened. I checked to make sure it's still there, but Brownells nitre blue instruction pdf seems to be a really good guide even though it's not their product.

Actually, I have a pot for this purpose in mind. My casting pot is too big for this job anyway.

Thanks for the tip on the Brownells instructions. I'll look them up.

Did not find the stump remover I was looking for, so used niter fertilizer from the garden shop.
Probably not as high in nitrate, but seemed to work pretty well.
With a thermometer, also works to temper springs.
Chuck

"....Does anyone have a case colorer to recommend who is fast in the turnaround? I am trying to avoid Classic Guns in Illinois after what happened with the 95 Marlin I sent them,...."

What happened with Classic Guns if I can ask?

The engraving looks beautiful. Just right for the rifle.

FWIW,,Most any nitrate salt will work for 'nitre blue',,potassium, sodium, ammonium (as well as does molten lead.)
The 'salts' are easier to work with as they are clear when molten and you can easily look down in and see the results.

Any of the nitrates in their crude form of fertilizers or other garden use compounds works ok. As long as they melt when heated at under the required temp needed to color the steel what you want and you have a decent thermometer to trax the temp of the pot.
You don't need a big batch of the stuff for small stuff like screws and pins.
Be very careful with it. It'll burn thru most any protective clothing you wear and then continue thru your skin.
ANY water/moisture introduced into it will produce a violent explosion of 700F+ salts all over you. You will wear the scars of it for the rest of your life. Double eye protection ALWAYS when handling this stuff.
It's just a heat blue done in the absence of the free O2 of the atmosphere.

Kutter,
I sent them a Marlin 95 (circa 1899). I had polished it and take out the pits and dings and restocked it and replaced parts, and it was rebarreled. So, I sent it off to be case colored - as I have with a number of other old rifle actions, mostly Winchester 85s.

I got it back looking really good, if a bit gaudy, and put on the barrel. When I had it on just right. I pulled it from the vice and it swung down and the top tang hit the floor. Something that should not have happened. However the top tang went flying off with a lovely tinkling sound. That is also something that should never had happened, hitting the floor nor not. It had broken cleanly through the tang - crystallized. Later, the lever would also break.

I called CG and asked for an explanation - they, of course, claimed they were blameless. Couldn't even acknowledge that they might have screwed up. I was too pissed off to get mad. I knew I was screwed and basically gave up w/o a fight. Their whiny excuses tried to point the blame at others, and that simply wasn't justified. However, rather than fight, I chose to fold my cards on this one. Still makes me sick.

Since then, I have learned that no one has ever seen anything like that in any other Marlin of similar vintage - suggesting that is highly unlikely that Marlin screwed it up originally (CG's favorite explanation). Nor had anyone messed with the action insofar as refinishing it or recoloring it (another claim they made).

To be honest, I don't really know what happened, nor does anybody else, but I believe they forgot it in the furnace and roasted it. I have no other explanation. Had he been even sort of forthcoming with some kind of compromise, (say 1/2 my money back or something like that), I might not be quite so POed at them, but they did nothing. I lost not only the money I had invested in their service but also the value of the rifle and all the the time and money I had poured into it. Thus, I would like to never use them again. Everyone makes mistakes, except, apparently them.

If you don't already know, vintage 95s are scarcer than hen's teeth and damn pricey when you find one.

Screw Classic Guns!

Al Springer
Snowy Mountain Bluing
320 Rocky Mountain Ln.
Moore, Montana 59464.
406-538-6942

All color cases once a week, so turn around on polished parts is fast. His prices and work are great!

Vall thanks a bunch.
Brent

BrentD,,Thank you for taking the time to explain what happened w/Classic Guns.

Brent,
Isn't there a Chemistry Dept.,at your University? They should be able to get the chemicals you require in small amounts. Alternatively you could send the parts to our mutual friend in San Diego, he can do a great Nitre Blue.

Harry

Harry, There is a world-class chem department here, but I can't buy stuff here with cash money, and I would never misappropriate funds from other accounts. So, yeah it is here in reagent grade quality no less, but I can't take advantage of it, unfortunately. the stump killer stuff looks just fine however and I will be searching for this down at the local farm-supply store soon.

The Classic Guns episode was a rifle loony's classic nightmare. Wish you COULD just wake up and have your '95 back.... Great gun--great loss!

Have had very good experience (quality and turnaround) with
Mike Hunter at http://www.mikehunterrestorations.com/
Chuck

Chuck, thanks for the complement, and referral.

Brent, don’t know what happened with your Marlin without looking at it, but it sounds like too deep of a case, and possibly the steel cooled too quickly.

About a year ago, I ran across something akin to what you described; customer had sent an 1886 to get CCH, when he got the parts back, the frame had warped, and the buttplate cracked when he tried to install it. He then sent it to me “to fix”.
Looking at the frame and parts, I could tell that they had been quenched at too high a temperature, and more than likely quenched in a brine solution. A brine solution makes “water wetter” meaning it cools more rapidly than plain water.

There was also no post case hardening heat treatment.

Lots of folks doing case hardening now, I’m not sure all understand what is actually going on besides pretty colors.

Respectfully

Mike

Brent D,
Walter Grass taught me how he fire blued screws, pins, etc. He held the polished screw in a pair of long nosed pliers, and played it in and out of the flame of his propane torch. In doing this, he watched very closely the color change. When he got the color he wanted, he quenched in oil. Interestingly, he used a similar procedure for hardening firing pins. He heated to cherry red and quenched the polished firing pin. He then polished the hardened firing pin bright again. This time he held the firing pin with a piece of iron wire wrapped around it( to prevent the "heat sink" pliers would provide). He played it in and out of the flame also, concentrating on the heavier, rear part of the pin. Due to different diameters, the color will run from the heavier to lighter parts( larger to smaller).When the color runs to "Straw" at the tip, from blue at the back end. This leaves it harder at the back, where it is struck by the hammer; while the smaller part that strikes the primer, is drawn to be tough rather than brittle. This requires that the colors be closely watched. BTY, parts that were "straw" can be colored the same way as the screws, just quench when the color runs to straw. This takes less time than heating the lead pot to temp.
Mike

FWIW, I went looking for KNO3 today at Theisen's (local farm supply store).

I found Gordon's Stump Killer right off the bat. It was, however a liquid, and, with the help of someone else's eyeballs, it seems that primary ingredient is Glyphosate (Round-Up weed killer). However, I then found a 1# jar of Gordon's Stump Remover which was some sort of crystals, and did not have any ingredients listed on the label. But it the MSD sheet for it lists it as 99% KNO3, so exactly what I needed for under $8.

Many thanks to Cameron for the suggestion. I will be bluing some screws this weekend as I just got my engraved parts back from Turnbull yesterday.

Remember, is the Stump REMOVER, not Killer that you want.

I forgot to ask, what is a target temperature for a nice fire blue? 700? I am sure I can look this up but if anyone as a number off the top of their head, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks again.
Brent

I'm sorry to ask a dumb question, but what is a "false muzzle rifle"?...Geo

Never mind; Googled it.

google to the rescue every time. I often wonder how I managed without it.

it will be nice to have this rifle completely finished the next time I shoot it.

Brent you're certainly welcome! Glad you were able to find some Gordon's. I heated it to around 725-750 degrees and have read various posts/articles where temps were anywhere from 650-800 degrees, so I'm not sure what the optimum temperature should be. I somewhat split the difference and with judicious monitoring was able to get the "fire blue" I wanted for some pins.

Larry Potterfield mentions in his video on the subject that he heats his salts to 650 degrees. It sounds as though you've found your answer.....good deal and have fun!