I haven't had any response from Clearwater Reboring about my proposed job,and until I can find another shop, I thought I'd like to hear from any of you regarding what I need done. I have an excellent JP Sauer 9x57, but the throat is quite eroded. Accuracy seems to be about 3" gruops for five shots at 100 yds with jacketed bullets. Lead seems to shoot about the same for 3 or 4 shots and then spreads badly. Can this .356 bore be opened to .366? If the change has to be big enough to ream the existing rifling completely out, then I'd have to go to a .375.I want to save this barrel if at all possible. Any recommendations or suggestions?
Last year I had a Winchester 64 in 30-30 re-bored to 38-55 by J&S. I chose the 3-groove and they did a fine job, could not be happier with the work or the turnaround time.
J&S
If it's just the throat that's causing the problem, could you try re-chambering to .35 Whelen if the action is long enough? Might clean up the throat area...
I also had a Martini sporter rebored by JES.
worn out 303 to 35 on the 303 case. Perfect job. He only needed the bbl.
Job completed in 2 1/2 weeks.
$225 to $250 depending on # rifling grooves.
Included opening the neck on existing chamber, throating & return shipping of bbl.
I too got tired of waiting & never hearing from Clearwater.
Call Jessie @ JES Reboring. Let it ring. He'll pick up, or the answering machine will. Leave a message for call back and he WILL call you back.
http://www.35caliber.com/index.htmlHe'll let you know what options are available with the existing bbl dimentions you have.
You might be able to just clean up the throat depending upon how bad that erosion is. A bit more freebore.
I have had that problem with a few rifles and I moved to the heaviest/longest slug that would stabilize. In a few of those cases it worked. A far less expensive/invasive approach.
If you do move to the Whelen, check the position of the shoulder on the 9mm first, it may leave a bump. Worst case, you have to turn the barrel back a thread to give you enough new metal to work with. Then again, if you can find someone with 9mm reamer, you can do the same thing and keep the chambering intact.
Tom
I've also considered fire lapping though it seems to affect the throat area more than the rest of the bore. I don't know at this point if accuracy is lost more to the roughness of the throat or to its being lenghtened by erosion. The bullets I fired were both 250 grs, seated as far out as possible. Setting the barrel back is complicated by the key through the forearm.and also by lettering around the barrel shank. Hmmm.
If fire-lapping, use jacketed bullets fired at low, very low, velocities. The jacket and the low velocity will largely prevent the bullets from obturating/expanding into the throat area.
Check your groove size, it's probably too large for reboring to 9.3 but would probably be fine for .375 (9.5x57/375 Express).
Check the crown; a recrown may, just MAY, improve accuracy.
Regards, Joe
JD, How do I go about choosing a powder and a charge? I'm inclined to try Trailboss but unsure where to begin. I may be asking a hazardous question. Maybe something like7-8 grs?
I've never used Trail Boss, am not familiar with its burning rate. IIWY I'd look in the back of a Lyman Handbook for cast-bullet loads for the 8x57, and use the Lyman CAST-BULLET starting loads for whatever powder you have in stock. You shouldn't need more than maybe 2 dozen in total, just be sure to clean the bore thoroughly after each successive grit size change.
Hope it helps but frankly IMO it'll probably need something besides fire-lapping. F/L works quite well on new barrels however.
Regards, Joe
I didn't realize the pile of issues due to contour, key, etc. What a drag. Using the 250s would have shown you if it at least had potential as well.
Calibers in the 35's tend to be fairly easy to hand lap, and could actually give you the opportunity to choke the bore as well. If the throat is hogged out, it may not make a difference. If the lead is worn, that would probably be better solved with a throater.
Did a little info check that showed the 9mm as having a .430 shoulder while the whelen had a .440. That should clean up the chamber correctly if you want to take the budgeted approach for getting it to shoot.
Tom
Rocky mtn Bill,
If you just have to have it rebored, I agree with Joe that the best caliber would be 9.5x57. The Whelen would be OK,but you would likely have to open up the mag.box. I had trouble getting one of my 9x57s to shoot and tracked down the problem to a crack in the stock through the recoil shoulder and from behind the mag.to the trigger.These cracks weren't too obvious, but opened in recoil. I epoxied a cross bolt across each crack and it settled down. Large calibers aren't all that sensitive to throat erosion. Just a hint, switch to 3 round groups and they will look better.It won't cost anything to check the stock before deciding what to do.
Mike
Der Ami, I will definitely check the stock for recoil lug fit and cracks. I will also try some other loads. I was using 40 grs of 4064, a mild load, but I wanted to see if .358" bullets gave any pressure problems in the .356" bore. They didn't.The neck of the chamber is tight enough that bullets can just be hand seated in a fired case. I'll try to figure out a charge for Varget or maybe 4895.
Bill,
Did you slug the barrel yourself? All the ones I slugged were .358. I have heard of some being .356, but don't know if that came from actual measurements or from a "book". A German friend loaded for his Mod 88, 9x57, using.358 bullets and 358 Win. data. This is what started me checking.
Mike
Hey Bill,
as an add on to Mikes post. Those guns always split behind the mag. In addition, make sure of your clearance between the bottom metal and the action. If it going to touch anywhere that it shouldn't, its going to be at the front of the box or at the front screw. My guess is that it has a stock ferule(sp?) at the rear action screw so it shouldn't happen there.
Tom
Tom, Thanks for the tip. I had checked and found the magazine box needed to be reduced a bit in height. I also lapped the crown a bit and slugged the bore. Just returned from the range. The first two 5-shot groups were 2 1/2- 3", not too bad for open sights, but the next two groups opened badly as the bore fouled.Accuracy is adequate for hunting. Ten shots would probably suffice for ten years the way things are going here nowadays. Still, I'm tempted to see if firelapping using only fine grit would reduce the fouling problem.PS: Today's loads were RE-15; groups were slightly better than with 4064.
Bill,a .356 Lee size die will reduce your .358's,no sweat.It should reduce fouling too.I size them down to .353 for my 9x56 MS,worked for me.
R, Does Lee sell dies to size jacketed bullets? I was shooting 250 gr Hornadys.I suspect you're right about the oversize bullets adding to the fouling problem.
Yes Bill,I use their standard bullet sizing die in a rockchucker press.With a good lube 250 grain Hornadys slip right through the .356 die,it gets more difficult as you go smaller.
The die will set you back about $20.00 shipped on their website.
I'll Look into getting one of these. Thanks for putting me on to it. I had no idea sizing jacketed bullets was so simple.
Yeah, it's simple but sometimes when sizing down, the jacket will spring back enough to cause it to separate from the core slightly. Not a problem with sizing small amounts or with 'soldered' jackets, but a definite consideration when sizing large differences or some standard-design jackets.
'Bumping up' OTOH tends to lock the jacket more firmly to the core, since the jacket will spring back slightly and the lead won't.
Regards, Joe
Joe,
Your concern is well founded. I try to limit sizing jacketed bullets to .005".I don't have any trouble with this limit in sizing 8mm and 32 Win.Spec bullets to .318. I haven't tried the Lee die,but it seems to be well liked by my friends. Being an "old fart" I still use a "ring sizing die" with replacable "rings" that I can make my self. My old friend and mentor Gene Enterkin( I miss him) bumped .308 bullets up to .318,but .010 was a little much and he had problems with some makes of bullets.I gave him some .313, 7.65mm Arg. bullets to try, but he passed away before he needed to try them. I believe my way is the best. BTW the .005" isn't cast in concrete. Maybe it should be less for a smaller bullet and more for a larger bullet.
Thanks for all your response and input. After another shooting session,I decided to abandon the 9mm bore. It just fouled too heavily. I asked Dennis Olson to send it to High Plains Reboring. In less than three weeks it came back as a 9.3x57. Borer and chamber both look like new now.I'm anxious to give it a try in this new form, but first I need to scout out cases, bullets, and dies. If anyone has a surplus of any of this material, I'd appreciate hearing from you. Good loading data will be helpful too. Would it be inadvisable to add a Lyman 48?
Ryan, Thanks for the above tip on loading data. That's a great site. I just returned from the range with the newly 9.3x57. I tried two modest loads with IMR4895 and Varget. Both gave satisfactory groups. I found in loading that I need more throat in the new chamber. The Hornady 286 gr. had to be seated all the way to the cannelure in order for the bolt to close. I'm looking forward to trying it again when I can seat bullets out a bit further.
Great - good luck with her.
I had a chamber problem with a Model 1903 Styer Mannlicher in 6.5 X 54, when test fired the case bulged at the base and the case neck shortened to much for my confort. It was suggested that I fire form cases but I chose to cut the barrel down I turn and rechamber the barrel to a correct 6.5X54 and it came out very nice. I do not know if that will work on your JP Sauer or not but something to think.
Although Hornady bullets shoo t well in my 9.3, the recoil is enough that I'm concerned about the slender, old stock holding up, not to mention my slender, old shoulder. I'm trying to locate a source for 232 gr Norma bullets. Graf says they're out of stock. Any suggestions where they are available? THanks.
I'd like to try cast bullets in the 9.3x57, but moulds are hard to find in 9.3. I seem to remember an article by Ross Seyfreid in DGJ about paper patching bullets for nitro rifles. I can't find the article now but wonder if my moulds for 35 caliber could be made to work. Both are gas check type, one of 200 grs., the other 250.I don't know whether to try them with or without the gas check. I may also try patching some lighter jacketed bullets from .358. Any experience or advice out there?
It turns out the article I was searching for appeared in Handloader #220, Jan, 2003.
Check out the castboolits website at castboolits@gunloads.com
look under the group buys section. There may or may not be an ongoing buy for one of Swede Nelson's Night Owl enterprises
9.3 molds. I have two of his two cavity aluminum molds, one is for an oversized .316 bullet good for worn 1891 argentine mausers and some lee enfields. The second mold is for the 9.3x57 I have and it casts .368 about 280 grains with gas check shank. Excellently made molds and he always has a backlog of orders. If you pm him he may or may not have a 2 cavity mold from the last order. Never hurts to try. My 9.3x57 is made on a pre war FN action. So its an oldie.
Slug your barrel first before ordering as the bore diameters may need a bullet diameter of close to .370. Hope this helps Frank
I finally got a chance to do some more shooting with the 9.3x57. As an experiment I tried paperpatching some 200gr .358" cast and jacketed bullets. With 44 grs. of IMR 4895 both bullets gave groups of about 1 1/2- 2" at fifty yards. Conclusion? Not worth the fuss and bother. With 49 grs. of Varget and 200 gr. Hawk bullets, fifty yard groups were right at 1". I'd definitely recommend High Plains reboring based on this one experience.
Bill,
I have good luck with old 250gr Speer bullets in mine, and a friend has good luck with current 270gr Speers. Graf has a good price on 286gr PRVI bullets. I like 4895(mil."pull down").
Mike
Thanks, Mike. I'll make an effort to find these if I can.