One of my many projects,,
Just wondering if someone here could tell me a little about the proofs., and perhaps the caliber.

The M/S is a Model 1910. That is what is still readable on the receiver ring, the rest is gone from the curse of the claw mount base dovetail.
The barrel is a 24" long, fluted full length matted rib, slim full round bbl.
Serial number on the bbl above the wood line. Action is serial numbered (matching) on the bottom of the receiver ring.

I always assumed (wrong to do, I know) that the caliber was 9.5x56MS.
But the extra German proofs got me thinking again when I pulled it out to work on it.
On the bbl, right side, just ahead of the receiver ring:
Crown
Crown/N
9.2m/m
2.13
865

On the receiver ring left side:
Crown/N
St. m. G
N 17.6 gr.

The bbl is also hand engraved w/
H. Barella Berlin
Kgl. Kais. Hofbuchsenmacher

Is the caliber the standard M/S 9.5 or will only a chamber cast tell?
9.2 in the proof mark,,is that the bore diameter?
Nothing to really tell the cartridge in all that is there.
I take it the '13' part is 1913(?)

I'm aware of who Barella was and in this case probably the retailer of the rifle. The German proof due to the law requireing it.
I believe it was a full stock rifle judging from the wood line wear marks and faint nose cap line.

A half stock now. Cut and rounded just in front of the clevis swivel.
The rifle is a bring back souvenier from WW2 so said the 80y/o youngster from whom I bought it. He said it was his older brother that came home with it.
So a duffle bag cut on a full length stock was not out of the question.

Thanks for any info. I'll post pics as soon as I can.
I'll be doing something to fix the missing claw mount problem. Haven't decided what yet.
The rear mount left 2 holes and a slice out of the clip bridge on the left side.

IIWY I'd check the actual bore diameters. Could be a rebarrel to 9.3x57.
Regards, Joe

A very worthy "fixer-upper" say I. Glad it escaped the treads of our "de-Nazifying" bureaucracy back in the day!

Kgl. Kais. would probably translate to Imperial and Royal because the Austrian Kaiser Joseph was King (Koenig), of Hungary and Emperor (Kaiser) of Austria. Hofbuchsenmacher means gunmaker to the royal court.

St. m. G means Stahl Mantel Geschoss or steel jacketed bullet. 17,6 grams corresponds to 270 grains +/- which is the standard bullet of a 9,5x57 M.-Sch. If it is a 9,5x57, try the new Nosler 260 Accubond. If it feeds OK, it should be very accurate. It is in my M1910.

2.13 would be February of 1913. 865 might mean it was the 865th proof of that month. Normally Mannlichers have a V for Vienna next to the N which makes me wonder if this was proofed in Germany.

9,2mm might well be the bore. Cerrosafe is surely the safe way to go next.

A very nice rifle.

Hi guys, I'm Mike Ford. I finally broke down and registered on this forum.I'm really computer illiterate, so be kind.
The 9.2 is the bore diameter. 9.2 and 9.3 are common bore diameters for .375 (9.5mm)caliber rifles.
Mike

Ford, good to see you although I'm quite puzzled by your stage name. This rifle was sourced from a mechanic in the Zella-Mehlis area. Interesting that they are still using the 1893 4000 atm proof post 1911.


Note 4000 Atm test/exposure(Atmosphären-Pulver)

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
It means The American. This is what they refered to me as in Walter Grass' shop.Anyway, I thought for a long time you were a woman named Ellen, and I'm atill confused by Axel's.
Mike

I know what it means, just wasn't sure who hung that millstone. What a laugh; call me ellen.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I like the Mannlicher but then I have a soft spot for butter knife bolt handles. It would have been very nice to have seen it in its full Mannlicher stock, but it is what it is, eh. I do have a question about it. Being quite new to the study of German/Austrian rifles I am learning something every day. What is with the full length rib on top of the barrel? I don't recall having ever seen that.

Kutter if he still has it. I did know where there was a full mannlicher stock in very decent shape for the 1910. If interested PM me. Whitey

I think it is a bit unlikely that Barella from Berlin supplied to the Vienna court. And the Austrian K.u.K is usually pronounced as "kaiserlich-königlich".

After 1871, the Germans also had their personal union of a Prussian king and a German emperor - and for a stout Prussian, his king would always come first.

Regards,
fuhrmann

In 1860 Heinrich (0.?) Barella moved to Berlin and received his royal appointment/warrant as könglich Preußen Hofbüchsenmacher und Kommissionsrat, the latter being an honorary title supporting public welfare and the arts. His 1st appointment looks to have been under Fürst Joseph( Joseph Franz Maria Anton Hubert Ignatz Fürst und Altgraf zu Salm-Reifferscheidt-Dyck(9.04.1773 - 3.21.1861), who expired in 1861 and the he took up with the court of Fürst Alfred joseph Klemens zu Salm Reifferscheidt - Alfter being sourced by both from 1860 - 1865. Early on his title was Königlicher Hof-Büchsenmacher while he was employing the Fürst(Prince) Pless system.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Heinrich Barella expired in 1893 so by the time this example was peddled, his son Max Barella and other Nephew August Barella were doing the sourcing for their retail outlets in Berlin(W8 - Französischestraße 25/26) & Frankfurt. I think the advertising on the tube of "H. Barella Berlin Könglich Kaiserlich Hofbüchsenmacher" was used as they touted their clients like the King of Italy & Romanian as well as the Tsar of Russia and other affluent folks in Austria, Indian, North Africa & Turkey. In 1867 he divulges that he was sourcing tubes in the raw state from Belgium and components from England to "make by hand" in his shop his upper rung offerings peddled from Behrenstraße 29. His nephew Heinrich Leue, along with Fritz Timpe, advertised as Kaiserlich Französische Hofbüchsenmacher till they split the sheet in say 1876?
http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=281832

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And one point I forgot to make, which I think to be quite telling, is that these courts they were supplying were non-reining or non-governing houses and this Fürst Joseph cat was a botanist:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_zu_Salm-Reifferscheidt-Dyck

I'm sure some of the others they mention were on the throne like Königlich Preußen Kaiserlich Rußland but the entity that actually dubbed many of these waffenhändlers were more or less figure-heads than bona fide rulers. So it was really just fluff & advertising. I believe the advertising on the sporting weapon of interest was a truncated version of H. Barella Königlich Preußen(Preußischer?) Kaiserlich Rußland HofBüchsenmacher Berlin. In 1871 he acquired some the title Kaiserlich-Königlicher Hofbüchsenmacher in Berlin, so I wonder if from 1865 - 1871 he was without title?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Kutter,
Don't be too quick to replace the stock,it may not have been cutoff.Such stocks are not common,but are not unknown either.I think Axel has a similar one.
Mike

Here's mine. I wish it would get here soon.

Mike:

That's a spectacular rifle. What caliber?

Rem

Thank you everyone for the info and comments.

Der Ami,,I won't be replaceing the stock (thank you Whitey for the offer though).
It's too nice of a piece of wood underneith the grime. I do believe it is cut down though.
Close inspection of the bbl ahead of the forend tip and of the muzzle shows the old wood line and a muzzle cap image from wear/use.
I'd thought about a splice to bring it back to length. Done back a bit further at the swivel point would help in disguising it.

But splices on long thin pieces usually end up showing themselves no matter how well done initially.
The purpose made diagonal splice with spacer isn't something I like either though I've seen it on a number of older mannlicher stocked rifles.
I'll probably re-do the forend to a standard 1/2 stock style and either use the existing lug as a front swivel base (something I've done before on a sawed 1908 M/S carbine).
Or place a separate base further out on bbl and elliminate the original swivel lug.

Sharps4590..The bbl I believe is original. It;s serial # matches not only in number but the stamp style is the same as on the action and other parts. The front edge of the receiver ring is filed to shape for the raised rib.
I'm sure Steyr would supply most anything the customer would want or pay for like any other company of the time.
Usually raised rib bbls on European sporting rifles are most commonly seen as 1/2oct or full oct styles. This one is full round tapered with a small section at the breech a slightly larger diameter. Something different, but very European. Top rib is matted. No ramp at the front sight.
The front sight insert keys into the rib directly from the front.


Kiwi..Still haven't done a chamber cast,,maybe today. Almost hot enough to melt the cerrosafe on the sidewalk.

Mike Harrell..Beautiful M/S. They don't get much nicer looking than that. I like those sights.

Raimey..Do the proof marks tell you that it was proofed at ZM? Thus the comment about 'sourced from a mechanic in the ZM area'?
I don't know how that all worked,,
From there,,on to Barella in Berlin to be retailed or perhaps sold to a waiting customer?

Proofs and the whole 'Maker to the King' thing are just a blur to me. Too confusing when I try to sort it out. The mechanics I can deal with.

Kutter, the date stamp and the ledger number was used solely by the Z-M facility save a couple of months from September 1923 to say March/April of 1924 when the Suhl proofhouse for some reason used it. Yes, Barella phoned or telegraphed a subcontractor in the Zella Sankt Blasii or Mehlis area and placed the order more than likely after he had a client place an order with him. Images of any other marks might just point to that maker.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It was retailed by Westley Richards and the caliber is .375 express.

Mike,
.375 express is the British name for 9.5x57. Your rifle is likely to carry Austrian proof under the barrel. I would expect to see a 9.2 or 9.3 like the MS above.
I agree with Remington 40X- a really nice rifle.
Mike