Michael has mentioned several times that someone needs to research the post-war custom gunmakers, much as he did with the pre-war makers. I am not suggesting that I have the time, knowledge, or expertise to do it. Just for the sake of conversation, if someone were to take on this daunting task, who would be the top 10 makers that should be on the list, and why? Not necesarily the 10 best, but rather 10 most significant. For example, Steven Dodd Hughes should be on it not only for the quality of his work, but for the exposure he has given to custom gunmaking through his writing and photography. Gary Goudy, for his longevity and prolificity. (not sure if that is a word, he is very prolific, puts out a lot of work) Steve Heilmann for his outstanding quality. And of course Jerry Fisher and Tom Burgess, and Leonard Brownell did some lovely and innovative work, and Dale Goens, and of course Dave Miller, and D'Arcy Echols, and......

So, lets have some fun with this, who and why. Mr Hughes, I think we would all love to see your list. There have been so many great builders in the last 60 years, where would you ever start.

John

I'd have to add the name of Maurice Ottmar to your list because he could do both metal and wood well. He was also not married to one speciphic style but did several different ones well.

On top of all the talent he possessed, he was a first-class person.

I would second that!

Craig

While I'm more than flattered... my list of criteria would be very different than most, I'm too heavily influenced by inside knowledge to be impartial. I am curious to see what others think for sure! and may add some comments.

I can say that I've been fortuate to know and visit with Fisher, Tommy Burgess, Len Brownell, Monte Kennedy and Maurice Ottmar all of whom are/were first class individuals and hugely influential on my approach and attitude towards the trade. Jerry Fisher turns 80 this year and is an icon in my eyes!

Jerry Fisher, his long-time hunting buddy Jim Carkoff and myself with dead deer near the Musselshell River, 2007(?). Not surprisingly, Jerry's buck was the trophy and shot with his worn-out 7Mag. He is quoted as saying the rifle has taken, " a whole herd of Mule deer...". (T. Crawford Photo)

The worn-out 7Mag.

Would depend upon the criteria. 'Most influential' would HAFTA include Roy Weatherby and Parker Ackley to name only 2 (not my favorites but certainly QUITE influential). 'Most aesthetically pleasing' OTOH would certainly NOT include either man's name.

However 'most aesthetically pleasing' is largely subjective, while 'best workmanship' often ignores the beauty aspect. For instance Alvin Linden's inlettng and fitting was supposedly actually mediocre while the appearance was apparently quite stunning. Frank de Haas was certainly one of the most influential postwar smiths and his designs & executions show excellent mechanical quality but IMO his aesthetics suck.

There are a number of smiths whose work is impeccable but also is largely derivative. Do you value a cookie-cutter copycat who does impeccable knockoffs at a more-admirable level than a truly influential innovator whose execution may have been only average? How about someone whose work is 'far out' (a la Weatherby) but is also impeccable (La Bantchni[sp?])?

One of my personal favorites is Ed Webber. His examples of the Hagn and Sharps 1877 in Steve Hughes' book are, IMO, 2 of the 4 best-looking rifles in the entire book as well as 2 of the best I personally have ever seen in photographs anywhere.
Regards, Joe

Would the Remington 40X be considered a custom rifle?I think some of the best rifles in the world have come from Remingtons custom shop.
Tom

Aron Gates from here in San Diego had a national reputation, What a craftsman, what a gentleman!!

The following did some work pre-war, but are mostly considered post-war gunmakers. I would suggest the list include Frank Pachmayr, Paul Jaeger, W.A.Sukalle, Lenard Brownell, Al Biesen, Monte Kennedy, P.O. Ackley [MORE FOR HIS CARTRIDGE DEVELOPEMENT,HE WAS ONLY A SO SO GUNMAKER], Fred Wells, Pete Grisel, and Maurice Ottmar.

I really think you have to limit the scope of years more than just say post-war if you are going to limit it to the "top 10 makers" or even the "10 most significant". We are talking about a time span of 60 years here. The craft has advanced so far that it is hard to believe it can get much better as far as quality is concerned. A person is often splitting hairs over who is really the best or as I often think, "As good as the best".

If a person is lucky enough to own the book; Contemporary American Stockmakers by Ron Toews, which came out in 1979 I believe, you are pretty much splitting those 60 plus years in half. I have leafed through this book many times and am in awe of the work these people who are represented in the book did at that time which was over 30 years ago. And yet to be fair, if you were picking 10 craftsman over a 60 plus year period of time, you might eliminate the better part of those represented in that book from the first 30 or 35 years of the period.

My brother and I had an interesting chat with mkbenenson at the Las Vegas show. He made the statement "Linden was not the best stockmaker but he wrote the book". We all agreed this was a great contribution to custom gunmaking as a whole. In thinking this over, there are probably some others in the sixty years who have made similar contributions. I'm not sure I'm ready to say Harry Lawson's stock design was a great contribution but it's obvious the monte-carlo stock was part of the history of the post-war era and perhaps someone can be traced as the one who started it. I heard Al Biesen once mention that there were a few stocks he had made that he would like to buy back to get them out of circulation. Evidently these were before he made some for O'Connor. The reason I bring All into this discussion is because of the very fact he had O'Connor writing about his custom rifles and was probably the best known maker at that time because of it, even though O'Connor had custom rifles done by many other makers.

I didn't plan on this getting so long but I just feel that the scope is far to wide. I'd really like for someone to make some smaller parameters, maybe SDH would consider trying to do it, as I think it would prove a very interesting subject. The one thing everyone needs to realize is personal likes and dislikes often enter into such discussions. I see nothing wrong with this as long as it is realized there are just simply opinions.

Every time I see a thread such as this I am reminded of what the late Bob Emmons once said with tongue in cheek:

I am the greatest stockmaker of all time.
I am the alpha and omega of stockmaking.
I have won all the stockmaking championships.
And, if I die no doubt the art of stockmaking will perish with me.

Thankfully we know that will never happen.

Idared, I love to be quoted as an authority !!! Wish it happened more often in my family .... Two comments: first since WWII there has been an immense proliferation of good riflenmaking. Before the war there were only a handful of really good makers, today they are legion. Second, unless one is a dealer in fine arms, most of us have not examined work by most of the new men. We depend on photos and the opinions of others whose taste we respect. For example, although I have been admiring custom rifles for decades at gun stores and gun shows, I do not think I have ever handled, in the wood and metal, rifles by Echols, Goudy or Ottmar. Yet these men are acknowledged at the top. So when we loudly prounounce our opinions we can be skating on pretty thin ice.

Thanks everyone, interesting. Yes, it would be extremely hard to limit to just 10 names, and you would no doubt leave out many worthy smiths.

Steven, I know what you mean about the inside information. Michael has eluded to this before in regards to his research. He often comes up with information about a gunmakers personal life, and he does not know whether to share it or not. Great workmen or artists are often times lousy people. This is one reason you have to include Fisher. He has proven over the long haul that he knows how to run a business and treat his customers.

If we were to limit it, how about those who contributed to getting us to the current state of the art. Those who raised the bar to a new level.

John

Pachmayr,Pachmayr, Pachmayr,

Is there anyone here from the Cincinnati area familiar with Charlie Grossman from Milford? 1960=1970.
Tom

Another name that I believe deserves to be on any list of post-war makers is Don Klein. Don has made few rifles over the years but his workmanship and style are second to none.

Not only is Jerry Fisher one of the finest gun builders and stockmakers, he is one of the finest men I have ever had the privilege of meeting. He is a true gentleman and class act!

A very good discussion with a lot of valid points.

I stated collecting pre-war custom rifles a long time ago with the idea that I would get one rifle from all the better pre-war makers. I decided that “Better- Maker” is very subjective and I would collect and write about the makers that I thought made a nice rifle. Not counting the many “Unknown” makers, some who were very good there are many who I will not be writing about.

I have had a lot of correspondence over the years asking why I don’t write about Mr. X and his fabulous custom rifles. Some I just don’t have all the information I need but many I just don’t care for. When I started writing about them I made a rule that it was unfair to me or the reader if I wrote about a maker whose rifle I just saw a picture of or read what some other writer had to say about them. I like to see as many of the makers work as I can, Living in Alaska kind of limits me but I have traveled to some wonderful collections, and of course the big gun shows at one time had scores of old custom rifles to look at and handle.

With makers like Adolph Minar it was just luck that I found and bought a like-new rifle of his then I got to handle O’Connor’s. I have tried to own, take apart, shoot and live with at least one rifle from every maker I write about. My business or collector plan soon went out the window regarding some makers like Wundhammer who I have owned about a half-dozen of his rifles over the years. I’m embarrassed to tell you how many S.R. Griffins there have been.

I’ve been lucky and had a lot of help and encouragement over the years in preserving the history of these makers. Many custom makers like Jerry Fisher has been very supportive of my work. One year in Vegas Jerry took me to task because he felt I had been too hard on Alvin Linden, when he got home he sent me a Linden stock for my collection.

This is getting a bit long but the truth was I was in the right place at the right time. I think many of you are at the same place in regard to post-war makers, good luck.

You are so right Shane. Besides being a great gunsmith whose work has stood the test of time, he is a first class person. His wife certainly is also. He is who I got my copy of Contemporary American Stockmakers by Ron Toews from. He related about being back to Wisconsin to look at Linden's grave. Someone mentioned to him that he ought to visit Emil Koshollek before he headed back West because he was a very good friend of Linden. He did and was a bit surprised to see a lathe sitting in the living room. He said, "I can well imagine how impressed my wife would be if I moved a lathe into our living room"!!

I will always remember the smirk on his face while telling that story.

(Michael, Thanks!)

In reading the above comments I found several names that made me cringe, and several who's work I truly admire. And because I have made it my life's work I have had the privileged (believe me I consider it that!) of visiting many craftsman's shops and have had their work in my studio to photograph.

I agree with Red's earlier post about the limits of perfection and yet everyday at the bench I struggle for unachievable perfection. I consider the ability to maintain an extremely high standard of quality over the course of a career to probably be the best criterion for judgement. Style is so subjective and although Harry Lawson was one of the names that made me cringe, he certainly did make a career of it and, as Mark brought up I have never seen a lick of his work to examine for quality. (I've been told he an David Miller worked in the same shop early on?!)

Other fellows mentioned like Fred Wells, Pete Grisel and Ed Webber were hugely influential but in a quiet, behind the scenes way. I visited Grisel in Bend in 1977 and he sent me back to Trinidad with a scrap of checkered walnut to show our stockmaking instructor Ed Shulin that he did in fact learn to checker. Pete showed me a lovely Mannlicher Mauser with a double schnabel and went on to developed the Dakota action and much of Dakota's proprietary hardware with little or no recognition. An unhearalded career craftsman.(Don Allen might be a candidate, but not on my list for personal prejudice.)

I visited Fred Wells in Prescott about 1982(?). Fred shut down the entire shop and gave me (who he didn't know from Adam) the Grand Tour! What a guy, what a shop and certainly the consummate Mauser craftsman, probably Ever! Never a pubic peep out of him, but world renown!

I've been fortunate to know Ed Webber for nearly 30 years and had lunch with him during the Livingston Gun Show a few weeks ago. I met Ed at the ACGG Show the year I joined (1985??) and he was the guy I would call on the phone when I had a single shot rifle question over the course of the next couple of decades. I had a story published in the Big Sky Journal (that probably none of you ever saw) Fall 1997 and got to tell a bit about how Ed invited Wolfgang Droege to Big Timber spawning both Sharps rifle makers to locate there. Ed was The guy to redevelop the Sharps '77, the finest!. He is the Finest Kind as a gentleman and friend!

So please don't ask me how to chop this subject up?!? Maybe set some time frames, notion of quality and consider fellows who had a career in the trade. There have been lots of flash in-the-pan, lately johnies and all. Sure wish I could get paid to do this!
Best,
Steve
(WE NEED BIGGER PICTURES!)
Ed Webber M-77 Sporter, one of two or three, this a .405!
And an M-52 with Steve Heilmann metal and a James Tucker stock.

A few more ideas after rereading: I like to think about "small shop " guys, so Pachmayr, Jaeger or Weatherby wouldn't fit. Neither were they making my notion of "custom rifles" regardless of style.

Ackley and Sukkalle were primarily barrelmakers, and should be considered as such.

Breaking it down by stockers and metalsmiths, or guys who did both, or guys who designed the whole rifle but worked with other craftsman??!!??

(BTW, Did any of you know Jerry during his "prickly years" between marriages? In Dubois, WY?)
Not much accomplished in This shop today!
Best, Steve
Fisher single shot .220 Swift on solid bottom FN Mauser.

Ed Webber's "gopher gun", caliber .25-20 SS, Remington action.

Steve, Not a problem I wrote it with "Word" cut and paste and out the door this AM. Thanks for calling it to my attention.

Some names I would like to see more information on and pictures of their work are,

John Hutton,

Carmon & Son Longmont, Colorado

Morgan Holmes

Wilbur J Hauck

Thank you everyone for the input, very interesting. I was not around for the first half of the post-war era, and for a good part of the second half I either running around in diapers or crashing motorcycles. My impressions are based on reading dads complete collection of Gun Digests, and looking at the rifles I could at gun shows. So please, keep this in mid when reading the following. These are just my observations, please feel free to correct them as needed.

It seems to me the post war era could really be divided into three parts. The first, I would all a transition era. Lets say from 1945 thru about the early 60's. During this time scopes were becoming common place, and the modern classic style had not yet really been defined. A lot of pre-war makers were still active, and some of them I think had trouble trying to make stocks that were suited to scope use yet still attractive. Tom Shelhamer is one of these. While his workmanship is consistently very good, his post-war cheek pieces take some time to grow on you. I do not think his post-war work is as elegant as his pre-war stocks.

The second era seems to be from about the mid 60's, thru the mid 80's. By this time the modern classic style, other than a few refinements, had pretty much been defind. What we did see during this time was not so much a change in what was done, but a great increase in the quality that is was being done to. Fit, finish, detailing, and checkering all were refined to nearly perfection in the top makers work.

Once the quality was raised as far is it could humanly be, the top makers started to look for other ways to show off there craft. This is what I see as the current era. The top craftsman are doing things that are just mind blowing. In some ways I think we have gotten away from "form follows function" of the classic style, and we are doing things just for the sake of saying we did them. I certainly hope this is not taken as a criticism, as I say the work being done is just incredible, but doing something just for the sake of doing it, or using some exotic material just to show that you can, is not to my mind in keeping with the classic style.

Again, just my observations, I'd love to hear from some smiths who have been active thru this whole era who can tell me how far off base I am.

A few more names that I don't think have been mentioned yet, Dale Goens and Sterling Davenport.

Thank you everyone, this has been very informative.

John

I came late to shooting and hunting. While still going to gun shows to buy camo and ammo about 20 years ago I was surprised to meet a gentlemen at a booth at a show in white Plains, NY. He was in the basement of the County Center building surrounded by fake military pins, milsurp clothes and jerky but his wares were like none I'd seen. His name is George Beitzinger and he still makes custom guns, mostly Mausers, in Brooklyn, NY.

He worked at G&H when Joe Fugger was there, I'm not sure when he went out on his own. Michael, I'll call him again this week to see if he wants to talk.

Most of the top makers today are on the west coast, it's nice to have someone in my backyard. George's guns come up for sale, here are a few.

I have no idea what others think of his work and truthfully I have not handled enough guns by other makers to put George in a ranking, nor do I care to. But that's not what matters to me so much as George was very polite to this neophyte, took time to explain his work and gave me the peek in the door that has snapped at my heels to this day.

Gents,

Chuck Grace, Trinidad.

Good shooting.

Agreed, Chuck is a fine gunmaker and an even nicer person.

Took a Marln 39 to George Beitzinger several years ago to have scope blocks installed. Gave him a sketch to show where I wanted them. He put them where he, not me, thought they ought to go. I paid him, but have not been back.

Bob Snapp.
Regards, Joe

charlie is a friend of mine says he would like to know the history of the gun he barreled for you

does anyone have a gun made by a gunsmith by the name of grossman in the cin ohio area looking for 3006 or one of his trademark .17 calibers

I thought I'd bring back this thread to show a little surprise Dan and I found today preparing a consignment rifle for sale. The barrel is marked Taylor & Robbin, and we found this under the highly engraved buttplate. I've got lot s of pic but right now need to post them on GI and try to sell this fine .243.
(I could a started a whodayathink thread?)
Anyone seriously interested can PM me.

Great thread, say I was wondering about this rifle that
appeared on gunbroker awhile back

Hooper

George Hoenig.

I visited Len Brownell at his shop in Wyarno, Wyoming (outside Sheridan) in the summer of 1977. I had much admiration for the photos I had seen of his work and was even more impressed to see his work in the flesh and meeting the wonderfully accomplished and humble man.
I don't see Brownell rifles up for sale very often, but trim lines and exceptional craftsmanship seem to have been his norm.
When this rifle came into the shop we thought it special, and the more we looked at it (tang safety, almost perfect checkering, great inletting) the more we wondered about Taylor & Robbins?
When the heavily engraved buttplate came off, as you might imagine, I called out to Dan in the back shop, "We Scored!"
We knew it was a 'special rifle', now we knew why. We still don't know anything about T&R except they were in PA.
I'll try and post a link to the pics when I get it up for sale.

Neat rifle Steven. So, who was the engraver in those days?

What caliber is it in? What does it weigh?

Looks like a beautiful job. Not many stockmakeres get the proportions of a Mannlicher stock corrrectly IMHO.

I have had the opportunity to handle several of Duane Weibe's rifles. I have always thought they were very well made with a good eye towards aesthetics.

Claire Taylor and Don Robbins (son in law possibly) were custom smiths in Marshburg, PA in the 1940's and into the 1950's, I believe. I think they were primarily known for benchrest rifles.

I have a Model 70 Winchester in 7mm Taylor & Robbins Magnum (a predecessor of the 7mm Remington Magnum), which was built for my late friend Crawford Hollidge, of Spin Tru bench rest bullets fame and writer of the Ernest Stuhlshuter column in Precision Shooting. Unfortunately, Crawf was left handed, and I am not, so I had the barreled action re-stocked by Griffin & Howe back in the '80's, and had another barreled action fitted to the stock by T&R, which I then sold. The T&R chamber accepts 7mm Remington Magnum ammunition and is a tack driver.

First time writing,I grew up about 15 miles from Taylor and Robbins shop which was in Rixford PA. and visited it regularly with my father in early 70s. Both Clair Taylor and Don Robbins were champion benchrest shooters and rifle builders. You can find them listed in the the old benchrest assn. Yearbooks. Don also was a stock builder and did some of the finest checkering found anywhere.i have a pair of Winchester 9422s that Dad had checkered by Don in 1973. I also recently purchased a model 70 270 barreled by T & R and possibly stocked by Roy Pullen. Stock is a lefty. Was told it was built for Crawfod Hollidge. I would like to know more about this rifle. Taylor and Robbins also pattented the original bore saver for cleaning bolt actions most everone has probably seen or owns the plastic ones made by MTM now. I will try to post more info on Taylor and Robbins in future if anyone is interested.

I am interested�
The above Brownell signed rifle is marked "Taylor& Robbins, Rixford, PA"

We all want to know more about our guns!
Thanks~~

Great first post, welcome to the forum. That is just the kind of first hand knowledge that I find interesting. I remember reading about Taylor and Robbins in old bench rest shooting publications.

John

If you check my post directly above yours you will get the explanation for your rifle. Now that I think about it, I believe that Crawf did say that is was stocked by Roy Pullen. I will check in my records. I used to have a polaroid photo of it which I got from Crawf which had the information on the rifle on the back. I will be glad to pass it on to you, if I can find it. I have no idea who Roy Pullen might be.

According to an old post from a few years ago Roy Pullen worked for Westley Richards then Shanandoa gun shop in virginia. The rifle pictured on that post is the one I have now.

A name not previously mentioned is that of HAL HARTLEY from Lenoir, North Carolina. Hal was a stockmaker specializing in hard maple -- both birdseye and fiddleback; usually with a sharply contrasting "SUIGI" blowtorch finish. His checkering almost always included ribbons. I don't think he did much/any metalwork, but his fancy maple stocks were featured every year in Gun Digest during the 1950's and 1960's.

Jerry Goldstein

I wonder if Pullen worked for Hutton before he worked at Shenandoah Gun Shop or whether they worked together there. Hutton came to "The Mountain" from Parker Whelen. I wonder if Pullen took the same route? I think Hutton was up on the mountain behind the gun shop. I'm not sure he ever came down to work at Shenandoah.

Hal Hartley had a symbiotic relationship with my friend the late gundsmith Harry Creighton of Nashville, TN. Harry did no stock work other than for himself, and Hal did no metal work, so they referred customers back and forth.

I have what may be the largest collection of Creighton-Hartley rifles in existance, mostly single shots done in maple, but some bolt actions as well, done in walnut. Hal was a fine person and great to work with.

This is a typical Creighton Hartley project, a 6mm-.225 on a Winchester High Wall:

My buddy had a M2 Springfield done by Hartley who he knew personally as he went to school with Hal's daughter. Nice gun but kinda heavy.

xausa, that 'wall is gorgeous. And maple makes sense in a varminter where you can sit in a good spot and "reach out and touch" the prey. Not for a "walking varminter," tho.

Aron Gates from San Diego was an exceptional craftsman. I have all of his hand tools and most of his fixtures and his north star carving machine is happily working away at Wenigs in MO.

This Hartley creation is more of a walking rifle, but it's not a varminter. It's in 7X57R and I expect great things of it in the deer harvesting department.

There are a lot of good elements in the discussion thread above.

I don't think that Sterling Davenport was mentioned.

I also think that Doug Turnbull makes a heck of a leveraction rifle.

Youse guys have forgotten one, my old Kansas quail hunting buddy N.B."Nubbs" Fashingbauer from LacLaframboise Wis.( given name Norbert). He was a contemporary of Mews,Kennedy, Goens and more. I learned to checker from him and still have the 20 gauge Britte I got from Frank Pachmayr that he stocked for me the summer of 1960. He also made a machined floor plate and trigger guard assembly for Model 52 Winchesters. 10 years ago he still had some nephews at Lac who had some of his work. He was featured in Gun Digest custom gun sections in the 50's and 60's. He never made vast numbers of stocks and his mark is an NB in a triangle usually under the butt plate. Lee.

If any of you are interested in reading about guns and gunsmithing of this period, I have three books I purchased in the 1950/60's when I was getting involved. They are #1. Advanced Gunsmithing by W.F. Vikery, Samworth 1940. #2. Gunsmithing by Roy Dunlap, Stackpole 1963, and#3. Custom Built Rifles by Dick Simmons, Stackpole 1955. None have dust jackets but are all excellent and clean cover to cover. The prices in the Simmons book will make you cry! I would ship them all to someone interested for $80.00 (book rate) in the lower 48. Lee.