Friends,

I have another drilling similar to the one I posted all the pictures of in the other thread, only this one is in my opinion, "better".

I do not have photos of it but I have all the details an expert would need to give advice on the gun and to answer the questions I have.

The questions I have are as follows:

1. When was the gun made?
2. Was this gun proofed in Suhl or elsewhere?
3. What can I learn about the maker - A. Strover, Nordhausen (the O in strover has uhmlauts over it)
4. What pressures / types of loads are safe for the rifle?
5. Value? (obviously for that you'll need pictures to be provided at a later date)
6. I was told the gun is a .318 bore 8x57J rimmed cartridge and NOT a .323 bore 8x57JS. I believe this to be true because the gun is so light I would be uncomfortable using the higher power loads. If I do a bore cast and verify it is .318, does this give us any hints to the gun's age?


The facts as dictated by the proofs are as follows:

The shotgun barrels are proofed with the crown over S, W, and U respectively. (also Nitro proofed)

They are proofed with "circle 16" and an additional 16 which I believe is 16 gauge, Full choke for each barrel.

The rifle barrel has crown over N.

The rifle charge is listed as:

StmG
-----
13gr

The cartridge is listed as:

7.8mm
------
57


The two most interesting proofs on the gun that I do not understand are as follows:

-On the belly of the shotgun barrels, an outlined letter M is present on each barrel.

-On the rifle barrel, a fraction stated 1/29 is listed at the very bottom of the barrel near the breech. (could this be manufacturing date?)

-W.K. is stamped to the bottom of rifle barrel which I believe is the initials of the barrel maker.

-Barrels are labeled Krupp Laufstahl

-Serial number is 10402

-Maker or seller's name is found on the top of the barrels (not on the rib). "A. Strover" on one barrel and "Nordhausen" on the other.

-There are numerous duplicate stampings all over the proof area of the eagle shape that was used from 1912 onward.

***Those are all the markings and proofs on the entire gun. I won't be able to add pictures for weeks but that should be enough to describe the gun accurately. It is a Henri Roux type breech that looks nearly IDENTICAL to the other gun I provided photos of with the exception being that this one has a Greener style safety and is in much better condition.

What is the letter type on the "Nitro" stamp for the scattergun tubes? Without handling it or a pic, I'd guess the 1/29 is the proofdate and Wilhelm Kelber was the mechanic who performed the tube assembly work. Is the "outlined letter M is present on each barrel" actually a cursive "W" encircling a "K"? 0.318" wasn't made obselete until the 1939 proof rules. I'd first guess 8x57R/360 and then go from there. There's not a full choke designation, just a "Crown" over "W" which notes that at a min. there is/was 0.008" of constriction at proof. Look forward to the pics.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Here is the only picture I have handy right now. It shows the type style of the nitro proof visible on the barrels.



The letter "M" on each of the shotgun barrels (not shown) is clearly a letter M but it is rather an outlined tracing of a letter M.

The barrels were claimed to be full and full but I haven't had them measured personally to verify. I had heard that if another number is next to the circled-gauge proof it may mean the barrel has some amount less choke than full. The other 16 drilling had a circle-16 with the number 16 on one barrel (full) and the other barrel was circle-16 with the number 17 on the barrel and it was less than full. I'm not sure this is correct, but a drilling collector told me that was what it meant.

There is definitely NOT a cursive W encircling a K. There is a cursive W.K. on the barrel in just the same area you usually see the barrel mechanic's mark in the examples I've reviewed.

How can I learn more about Wilhelm Kelber or the A. Strover, Nordhausen individual mentioned on the gun barrels? I'd love to make a maker's label for the gun case that included his name and shop's address if I could find such historical information about the man. You seem to know so much about these mechanics and gunsmiths and I'm wondering if you are referencing a book?

Why would you guess 8x57r/360 before you would guess that a gun marked 7.8mmx57 would mean 8x57jr? Isn't 16/16/8x57 the classic drilling type most common?

I'll know more when I make a chamber cast later this week but I'll be very disappointed if this gun is a 8x57/360. I have zero interest in handloading and just sold ALL my reloading equipment a week ago. I'm an off-the-shelf guy now and 360 ammo is not of interest to me.

Thanks as always.

It was made in Suhl & my 1st guess is that it is a E. Schmidt & Habermann Model 501, Roux-Drilling. If it doesn't have a pop-up sight for the solid projectile tube, it would be a Model 500. I don't know the patent exactly, but the E. Schmidt & Habermann Model 500 & 501 had some type patented forend latch/plunger? In fact, I'd just about lay a pretty heavy wager that E. Schmidt & Habermann either made it or sourced if for old A. Ströver of Nordhausen. I'm sure there is info on ole Ströver, but he was purely a firearms merchant that had connections to the money facet. One note that all shops had to either be a master gunsmith or have a master gunsmith on staff. I'm not sure but the widow seems to have been allowed to continue the business but for how long and when a master had to be on staff I can't say. The guild/trade looks to really have provided for their own, at least in the early years. All the grunt work was contracted to E. Schmidt & Habermann and they in turn sub-contracted the work thru economic channels. From my perspective, I really not intrigued by the peddler but the craftsman/craftsmen who made these find pieces. To my knowledge, there isn't any one such book on the makers of Suhl & Zella-Mehlis, much less those of Praha, Wein, Weipert, etc. If there is I'd like to purchase one. Too much water has passed under the bridge coupled with a lack of interest has left us with the puzzles we are now faced with. By who knows there might be a brief on many of the makers one day.

I'd also guess that Richard(Not Franz) Keller applied the engraving effort. When it comes to Austrian/Bohemian/German guns, there are zero hard and fast rules as they were constructed to the whims of the client. I'm sure it is possible for the rifled tube to be chambered in 8x57IR, but considering the drilling type, firearms merchant, lack of "IR" stamp, etc., I'd lean toward the 8x57R-360 but a chamber cast will reveal the little demon. Nordhausen is close to or in the Harz mountains where the V2 was manufactured.

The vulgar fraction, or integer, adjacent to the encircled cartridge designation(notes black powder also) has nothing to do with choke but notes a diameter of the tube 22cm ahead of the standing breech if the tube had more than 0,2mm of constriction, noted by the "Crown" over "W" which warranted at least 1 additional proof. If the "Crown" over "W" is not present, the diameter could have been measured at the business end.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

You are like a walking encyclopedia of guns. I wish I could hire you to follow me around all day and tell me what things actually are that I see! Like a faithful golden retriever, but with an IQ of 180. You're remarkable!

Anyway, I couldn't find any examples of the E. Schmidt & Habermann Model 501, Roux-Drilling online. I'll look in my copy of "the drilling" to see if I can find any more information out.

I did find this link to a VERY badly treated drilling that has much in common. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....amp;Search=true

In that dialogue, they said it was a Meffert drilling. The receiver on the gun we are discussing now is identical as to the position of cocking indicators, etc.

What I find very distinctive is that both guns I've discussed AND the gun at the link above all have that very peculiar method of joining the receiver and the wood stock that I don't see in other drilling examples.

Do you believe that the gun we are discussing, the gun you addressed for me in the other thread, and the gun at the link above attributed to Meffert are all from the same manufacturer?

Do you believe the engraving on both of my guns is from the same engraver? (it seems very, very similar in style and pattern) How did you come to believe Franz Keller was the engraver?

Lastly (and I know I've asked a lot of questions of you), do you believe this gun is desireable/collectible if it is currently in 95%+ original condition? Is it worth $2000, or $4000, or other?

Raimey, you and the rest of the contributors on this forum are the best. I hope to reward you with liquor or cigars should we ever meet in person.

More pictures:

Let me stare at the engraving but it may be of a different hand. Keller subscribed to a type of Art Noveau motif and if I'm not mistaken was sourced by Meffert.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It may be a Meffert, but I really don't trust the name on the top of the rib to have any part in the construction of the drilling. Instead the initials on the underside of the longarm reveal the craftsmen and may point back to the name atop the rib. Yours may very well fall in the Meffert serial number range but they were sourced for the trade. One thing though: Meffert's philosophy was that he could produce say 10 unadorned longarms in the time it took to make 1 or 2 embelished ones. So it is possible that it was sourced from Meffert but the work order was above what Meffert typical produced. And that was the thread for which I was looking.

In the scheme of things I know very little but am attempting to assemble, or compose, source material. Many have come before me and have laid the ground-work for info that needs to be carried forward. I'm going to hold you to an earthy smoke as well as a lively libation.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

One other hint that was marked on the rifle barrel's belly was a block "ST". It ran parallel the length of the barrel, and was right after the post that supports the splinter forend's attachment. (sorry if there is a proper term for that I do not know)

This "ST" was not at all related to the STMG bullet proofs, but was just two charcters in a fairly large block type font. It appeard to be in a similar typeface to the "Krupp" words on the gun. The only other two letter combination on the gun was the already addressed "W.K.". The difference being that W.K. was in a stylized cursive and the ST was in a bold, capitalized block set.

I promise I will post superior pictures in early August. (travelling until then) Other than superior pictures, what can I do to move the ball forward into identifying the manufacturer, engraver and retailer's identity?

Other than more cigars and liquor placed into the IOU account, what else would you need to delve deeper into this gun's history?

Raimey,

I found another good example of a drilling on the nitro express forum that you were discussing. It really seems like the engraver on this one could be the same as the drilling we're discussing in this thread.



I heard mention of names such as Treff, Meffert, or W. Müchler & Söhne being discussed on the very similar gun in that thread, for reference.

Treff was an action made by Meffert which has a horizontal block attached to the top strap which houses the strikers and coil springs. W. Müchler was a firearms merchant.

Yes, the actions are very similar but the side frame reinforcements are different and that may be attributed to the possibility that a different frame filer was sourced. Most have Greener safeties but one has a top strap safety. Considering that the Suhl-Zella/Mehlis area was one big gun shop, I'd say it is possible that about any craftsman could have contributed to the effort on the example and depending on the time constraint, all may have been sourced to different sub-contractor shops. Or the components on the examples could have been acquired from the same source and individual craftsmen added their own artistic flare making each slightly different. I don't know of a Suhl/Zella-Mehlis craftsman with the initials "ST" right off but I'll look. Any possibility that the "ST" is "S1", which is a forge mark or tube makers mark that crops up from time to time, many times on E. Schmidt & Habermann examples.

What it take to make a guess at the makers, etal.? Info on the initials on the tubes near the forend lug as well as just ahead of the flats. Also any stamps that are adjacent to the steel stamps. And a little time, of course.



Similar engraving as found on a DR??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Note the stamps after the steel type stamp. I really can't tell what they are but they seem to be different than others I've logged. Also is the script "W.K." in the same position near the forend lug?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

My gun has w.k. In what appears to be a similar if not identical script. However, w.k. Is located near the monobloc on mine. Where your example says w.k. Near the lug, mine says ST in block font. It is definitely not S1 which you asked earlier.

Raimey,

My gun has w.k. In what appears to be a similar if not identical script. However, w.k. Is located near the monobloc on mine. Where your example says w.k. Near the lug, mine says ST in block font. It is definitely not S1 which you asked earlier.

Thomas, Triebel, maybe a couple more round out the German craftsmen with a last name beginning with a "T". I'd look in the Triebel direction as in the mid to late 1800s there was a Stephan Triebel who was a Royal Weapons Inspector. There were several of these folks in and around the Suhl area but from what I can glean the majority of them worked at a state arsenal inspecting weapons applying those funky "Crowned" Gothic letters. But there wasn't an arsenal in the Suhl/Zella-Mehlis area, which was one factor that allowed the craftsmen of Suhl and Zella-Mehlis to avoid the fate of many of the gunmaking towns which was centered around an arsenal. But there were arsenal contractors in Suhl and the slight possibility exists that one aspect of their task was to inspect weaspons at the gunmaker's facility. It's sort of a broad interpretation of the scope of work of the Royal Weaspons Inspector, which some folks consider to be a stretch but I don't know what else they would have performed their job without traveling to an arsenal.

Any rate with all that typed, there may have been a 2nd generation of Triebel with the 1st name of Stephan or one of his relatives named their son after him. But I haven't found a Stephan Triebel that was a master gunsmith.

Wilhelm Kelber was of a family of tube makers and I think he was a principal in Gerbrüder Kelber. His initials are on many, many examples from Suhl.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I found this link today http://www.gunsamerica.com/958942640/Gun..._Combo_USE.htm#

It appears to be a very utilitarian version of the same action / frame type as the guns we're discussing.

How can I find out where all these frames came from originally? It appears that about 1% of all the drillings I've seen use this very distinctive and unique stock-to-receiver inletting and I want to learn more.

One more update:

I found another gun by the same "maker". (the name of the retailer on the gun barrel).

It is a different frame type but it appears to be the same engraver. http://www.cabelas.com/gun-inventory---kansas-city---european-sg---1723089-strover-kc.shtml

Not sure if this aids us in finding more about the gun I have or not?

A. Schuler - Ludwigshafen on the Rhein

My vote, Rookhawk, is for Gerbrüder Rempt. Schilling could have easily been a raw frame source. Many makers offered them and I'd say the bulk passed thru the proofhouse in Zella-Mehlis so I'd venture another guess that the craftsmen of Zella Sankt Blasii and Mehlis were subcontracted. I think one contractor to have the initals A.W(probably August Wagner pre-WWI). I don't know if I seen enough to say that 1% of production drillings had this Roux action type.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[img]https://moritz.homeserver.com/PhotoViewer/album634135129003437500/index.xml[/img]

Raimey,

I just got the drilling (2nd one) back from the Gunsmith. I took some pictures of the proof marks and labeled them as well. It is one of the last pictures in this gallery above but I can't figure out how to upload it individually. I thought it might prove as a quick identification tool for people trying to explain proof marks to you via this forum.

I also wanted to draw your attention to the W.K. and St initials on the gun, the location of the 1/29 and the mysterious symbols boxed in red that look like outlined letter M or letter K. No idea what those might be.

In other news, the bore cast tonight shows that indeed, the gun is positively a 8x57 rimmed contrary to what the German Gun Collectors guys swore to me. They claimed that Henri Roux actioned guns were NEVER 8x57 and when proofed as mine is, were usually 8x57/360. Well, I believe mine is an original 8x57JR in the .318 bore diameter (it was sold as such) but I need to push a lead slag through the bore just to make absolutely positive that the gun is not a 8x57JRS with .323 bore dimensions.

When I have more time I'll tell you the nightmares I've had over this gun, Cabelas salespeople, amazing gunsmithing from Orvis and why UPS made me sad when they dropped off the gun today.

Deleted different Cast




Wilhlem Kelber looks to have performed all the tube work with the "K" encircled by the "W" along with the script "W.K." initials. Pending consideration a few measurements like the rim diameter & base diameter I'd say you have the 8x58 Sauer which also had the designation 8X57R. Also if the bullet diameter was 8.2mm it would almost exactly fit the 8x57R Express or 8.2 X57R(Hagen). The 8(8.08)x58 Sauer would fit well with the Roux action and some free advice would be to never get a 8x57IR cartridge near the drilling. The "Crown" over "W" on the scattergun tubes indicates constriction. The "16" stamps give chamber info as well as black powder proof. Can you get a good pic of the "St" stamp? When I have more time I'll stare at the marks a bit more. Do tell the whole story including purchase & delivery.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

The gun diagrammed in the bottom picture is NOT associated with the 8x58 Sauer and Sohn Express casting photo you included. They are two different guns.

The diagrammed gun is a 8x57JR. I took a casting and then used a dial caliper to precisely measure each location of the casting to make 100 percent sure it was truely the 8x57 and not some sort of very closely resembled extinct cousin. Of course, the 8x57 has a neck on it and looks more like a 7.62x39 or a 7.62x51 than does that odd extinct 8x58.

Alright, Raimey asked for the "full story" on my foray into drillings so I'll try to abbreviate it as best I can.

About three months ago I decided that I wanted a drilling at which time I saw an advertisement for what I learned was called a "Henri Roux" style bottom lever opening shotgun/drilling. I then went onto Cabelas website for some other reason and ended up browsing over to the gun library and searching for "drilling".

Up popped a beautiful drilling that we'll call #1. #1 was a Henri Roux type drilling that Raimey went over the proofs in detail in another thread. The drilling had some rust so I did several home remedies on the gun such as using 0000 steel wool and gun oil all over the receiver, then used gun scrubber several times to flush out the dirt, and finally used a pink eraser (a gun engraver's trick) to thoroughly clean the engraving. In the end, #1s engraving was what I consider to be, fabulous. The shotgun barrels on #1 were really nice and clean with a decent 1" forcing cone and overall it was a lovely gun.

The first inkling of disappointment with #1 happened when I looked closely at the gun's stock and realized the stock was a crude replacement. It was checkered using a box cutter and even though the fit was pretty good, it didn't match the forend. Oh, and it was really short.

The second thing was that some of the screws were buggered because somebody opened up the gun with a flathead screw driver once upon a time.

Even with the problems above, I still loved my cabelas drilling they shipped in from WV for me. Then came the chamber cast which raimey posted above. The chamber cast was for a 8x58 Sauer and Sohn Express and I specifically bought a gun 8x57JR. I was more than angry about this point. The gun barrel was also really fired out with almost no rifling left in it.

The mislabeling was the final straw for me and I marched the gun back into Cabelas and said "you know how you don't do returns on guns? You do now!". They agreed and gave me a credit for Drilling #1.

Cabelas felt pretty sheepish over several errors in representation they made on #1 including the chambering error so they decided to make it right. They found me drilling #2 at their Maine store and they shipped it in to town for me.

#2 is a beautiful drilling with PERFECT bores on all three barrels. The engraving is not as good as #1 but it is still very nice. #2 also has a Greener safety which #1 did not have. #2 also had a beautiful bullet trap in the stock and 27" barrels that made me think this gun could be my standby hunting gun in the future.

Cabelas worked out a reasonable deal in exchange of #1 for #2 and I paid the difference since #2 was more money. Cabelas also appreciated that the gun #1 came back to them in MUCH better condition than it was sold to me. The pink eraser work on the engraving brought the gun back to life.

The next day I returned to Cabelas excited to get my gun and then head to New England for a family vacation. My wife and infant were in the packed car and I went in to Cabelas to literally grab #2, put it in a case and drive 15 hours that day.

This is when Murphy's law set in. Someone at Cabelas had played with #2 in the 24 hours since I had purchased it and through jamming the gun together and tinkering with it, they broke the lever spring on #2. Since I had already paid for it, Cabelas told me to take the gun and just send them the gunsmithing bill.

After driving through the night I made it to New England, dropped the family off and went into town to the Orvis Flagship store to see world renowned gunsmith Jordan Smith about this drilling. Jordan took the gun for 3 weeks in which time he did the following work: He removed the horn butt plate and created a 1-1/4" leather covered pad making the LOP 15". He choked the gun IC/M for me. He forged a new custom spring. $950 in repairs later, the gun arrived on 8/9 and I had the first chance to actually touch the gun I had bought a month earlier.

I open the gun case to find the brand new pad had been sliced and split (a $300 pad mind you!). The lady that packed the gun up at Orvis grabbed this plastic hang tag that held the broken gun spring and put it back in the box with staples extended open, right on top of the gun pad. During days of UPS travel the gun shifted and those staples cut that pad open severely.

Of course Orvis offered to replace the pad immediately but I decided to just keep the pad as it is. I have 3 lovely guns on the for sale list and I intend to keep the 1 or maybe 2 that don't sell. I didn't want to be without the drilling #2 in case it ends up being the one that goes.

The nicest thing about Jordan Smith's pad is that he created a 1/4" spacer and shaped it to the curved butt of the gun, then covered it and the pad in leather so the pad fits flawlessly, yet the gun has its original horn butt still and they can be swapped out since the stock hasn't been cut in any way.

So that is my drilling adventure! Now I have to go into Cabelas and see what I must do to get the $500 custom fabricated spring reimbursed that they were kind enough to break for me. (which Jordan replaced)

Raimey,

I've uploaded more photos of the gun as requested to this site:

https://moritz.homeserver.com/PhotoViewer/album634135129003437500/index.xml

I still can't figure out how to extract a single picture and post as you have done for me in the past, but there they are.

I have a nice shot of the forend lug that shows the "St" we've discussed and the gun's serial number. (the action has no serial, only the barrel) I want to point out something in that same photo. Look closely at the forend lug and you'll notice a tiny dab of gold foil at the north end of the lug. If you look really closely there is a faint outline where there may have been more gold in the past. Why did someone put gold on the lug itself? I have no idea. But it does appear to be a gold alloy of some sort and not brass. (not 100% positive though) It looks like a faint outline of a shield on the lug... Maybe its nothing.

Well, I am that "German Gun Collecctors Guy". Rookhawk did not quote my then statement correctly, so here is what I wrote on July 13, 2010 when questioned about this drilling and Ströver of Nordhausen:
"I looked up the Drilling on the doublegun forum. It is a quite ordinary so-called "Rouxdrilling" as made by several noname makers for the trade in both Suhl and Zella-Mehlis. The Ströver one was proofed January 1929 and probably made in Suhl because of the word NITRO is in block letters. The A.Schüler / Palatia one on the same thread was certainly proofed in Zella-Mehlis up to 1911 because of the gauge number and the "731" ledger number.
I very much doubt this Drilling to be a 8x57IR (the rimmed version of the Mauser case) as these Rouxdrillings were never made for these (for the day) high-pressure numbers. It rather is in 8x57R360, a much slimmer case in the 30-30 class. If someone has rechambered it to take the 8x57IR it is an outright dangerous piece of junk!
Today I called the nowadays Adolf Ströver, Stolberger Str.9, 99734 Nordhausen, Tel. 03631 992119, and had a short talk with the 80 years old gentleman. Yes, the company still exists and is still owned by the family, but they call it "The oldest bicycle shop in Thuringia"! He remembers his grandfather was sort of a gunsmith too, besides selling and repairing bicycles, so here we have the classic case of a country gunsmith who retailed and signed some guns, but certainly did not make them. On April 3-4, 1945 the family home and shop were bombed out like 75% of Nordhausen, so pre-war documents, if they ever existed, are lost. As Nordhausen and surroundings were first occupied by the US army because of the Dora V2 factory nearby, guns sold locally by Ströver were liberated then."
CAVEAT EMPTOR!