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Posted By: Travis S Relaying ribs question - 05/21/21 07:32 PM
The question is can a regular steel barrel (not Damascus) be tinned and soldered using only rosin flux and 60/40 rosin core solder?

I have seen it described positive and negatives.

Any consensus from experience?

Thanks

Travis
Posted By: bushveld Re: Relaying ribs question - 05/21/21 07:47 PM
Yes.
Posted By: Kutter Re: Relaying ribs question - 05/21/21 09:31 PM
I've always just used a paste flux and solid core lead/tin solder. Both for the initial tinning of the surfaces and then the actual soldering after positioning and clamping everything together.
Never had a complaint.

Most any flux that doesn't seem to work well is often because the operator over heats everything and burns the stuff. That destroys the protection from oxidation the metal surface gets from it during the soldering,

Get the surfaces clean, well fit, parts evenly tinned and most any decent flux will give you good results if you don't over heat things.
Posted By: mc Re: Relaying ribs question - 05/22/21 12:43 AM
If you tin it with acid flux then clean and neutralise the acid then use rosin flux to put it together I also use a natural fiber brush to get a consistent tining.
Posted By: bushveld Re: Relaying ribs question - 05/22/21 01:29 AM
When I build double barrel rifle barrels and attach the bottom and top ribs, I use a tinning paste that auto body shop workers use. It can be purchased in lead/tin as well as 100% tin. After you apply it you MUST clean it absolutely clean to remove the acid and then you additionally wash it with backing soda several times.

https://www.amazon.com/Eastwood-Tinning-Butter-Jar/dp/B003745IW6

Regards;
Stephen Howell
Posted By: Dennis Potter Re: Relaying ribs question - 05/23/21 10:41 PM
Travis,
To answer your question, yes, rosin is a neutral substance, it is a good flux and does not cause corrosion. It makes no difference as to steel or damascus. The only down side is it is very heat-sensitive and chars easily, so tinning has to be dove with a soldering iron, electic, is easiest, about 600 Watts. I have never used a non-electric iron, but I would imagine one heated on an electric hot plate would work, but you would have to keep it up to temperature to melt the solder and and not over-heat to tin the barrels. You need a 600 Watt iron, they are available used on ebay, but make sure it works before it is yours.
Just my opinion, but it is far easier to tin the barrels and ribs using an "active" flux, like Oteys No 5, available in home centers, the solder flows quite easy using it, but you need to remove the salt and tallow that the salt it is mixed with; it is mixed not compounded. Washing the parts with mineral spirits and then washing with a strong detergent like Superclean diluted about 4:1. To demonstrate the need to wash all the flux off after tinning, try tinning a piece if steel and just let it sit over a few days. One of the active salts in some fluxes is a component in some rust blue solutions.

Final assembly is with rosin flux. Taking apart a good quality barrel set often shows no corrosion at all, and the void between the barrels has ben sealed up for years.
And the rosin cleans up with alcohol and steel wool.

Good question
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Relaying ribs question - 05/24/21 08:16 PM
I think this YouTube video is about the best I have seen for we garage gunsmiths to relay ribs. Sensible and doable and its professional.

Posted By: gunut Re: Relaying ribs question - 05/25/21 01:12 AM
Thanks Joe.....
Posted By: Travis S Re: Relaying ribs question - 05/25/21 02:18 PM
That is a good vid. Thx for posting

Thanks to all for the replies. I have a cut down barrel set I am going to experiment on and will report back.

Travis
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Relaying ribs question - 05/26/21 10:58 AM
I enjoyed it, too, Joe. Thanks.

He made an error when he addressed hot bluing a soft soldered set of barrels. He stated that the heat from the hot bluing melts the old solder. Not so. The resulting corrosion from the salts eats away at the solder joint, but the temps attained in hot bluing aren't as high as needed to melt 60/40, which is 361 degrees F. Hot bluing rarely exceeds 260-280.
Posted By: gil russell Re: Relaying ribs question - 05/30/21 11:16 PM
Joe: Thank you for posting that. I have done it other ways but this guy simplifies the procedure in ways that are very useful and I will use next time. Gil
Posted By: mc Re: Relaying ribs question - 06/02/21 01:04 PM
I don't see anyway this video simplifies the process there are so many ways this could go south .i don't understand why you wouldn't want to wire up or use fixtures to do top and bottom ribs and lump at one time.i had a look at youtube videos most good shotgun mfg.wire up there barrels when soldering them together
Posted By: Travis S Re: Relaying ribs question - 06/02/21 04:41 PM
I will fully wire up but the video did demystify (simplify) the process in general for me
Posted By: David Williamson Re: Relaying ribs question - 06/02/21 08:58 PM
Great video to show how to do it right. I have checked many of my doubles that "rang" and have found that I could still slip a .001 feeler gage in spots on some. So the bottom ribs and some of the top ribs on a lot are not 100% soldered the whole length. If you do any rust bluing you can see for yourself bubbles coming out from different areas of the rib. If it held up for 80-100 years it will probably hold up for another 80-100 years.
Posted By: mc Re: Relaying ribs question - 06/03/21 12:27 AM
David Williamson Is this how you do it in your shop?
Posted By: bushveld Re: Relaying ribs question - 06/04/21 04:34 PM
bodger
Posted By: Woodreaux Re: Relaying ribs question - 06/05/21 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by bushveld
bodger

who/what are you referring to? Is the method in the video amateurish in your opinion? Or is that directed at someone else who posted in reply?
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Relaying ribs question - 06/20/21 02:29 AM
As an aside to the topic I “discovered” a quick way to find out if ribs are loose or have pinholes. I pull the front bead and jury rig a plastic tip to my small air compressor which I press down on the bead hole. I put some mixed water and detergent in the valleys between the ribs and tubes then turn on the compressor. Any leaks will immediately show up as bubbles in the soapy water. Since I am only pressing the plastic tip of the compressor to the bead hole there is no way to put too much pressure under the rib. Works like a charm. Obviously, the barrels are in a horizontal position while doing this.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Relaying ribs question - 06/20/21 10:48 AM
Good idea, Joe, but if the barrels are held vertically while you're doing this how are bubbles formed? The soapy water would all run off.

Did you mean "horizontally"?
Posted By: gunut Re: Relaying ribs question - 06/20/21 05:22 PM
Stan....Are you insinuating that Joe has a hard time distinguishing his S from a hole in the rib soldering.....
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Relaying ribs question - 06/22/21 01:57 AM
Oops, I meant horizontally…….Duh…..being a pilot I can’t tell the difference between right side up or upside down….
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Relaying ribs question - 06/22/21 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by Joe Wood
Oops, I meant horizontally…….Duh…..being a pilot I can’t tell the difference between right side up or upside down….

laugh
Posted By: Demonwolf444 Re: Relaying ribs question - 07/15/21 06:12 AM
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/soldering-on

Something i wrote for dig on the subject, ive since used an aggressive wire wheel on the bench grinder to clean up old ribs and it works great if your careful. it will remove the majority of old soldier and and any undesirables.

This is my response from someone who has done a bit of it. Particularly to some points on the video which was largely OK in practice.

I wouldn't use quick clamps to clamp the ribs and its nothing to do with being a London trained gunsmith because i'm not, nor am i doing one a year nor ten a day nor taking a month do do it, its about doing the job properly so I'm not revisited by the bugger at the end of the season.

Its a job i regularly carry out inside of a day and would charge a day rate for.

The value or otherwise of the job is no excuse for poor work.. If i rush the job i might do it in five hours instead of giving myself 7-8 hours.. the difference is between a £150 bill and a £210 bill, to give you an idea of what £60 is worth here in the UK, its 83USD at the moment... which here in the UK would not fully fill my fuel tank, nor would it buy me a full weeks shopping.

If i take the time i know its going to be right and lasting the customers going to grumble because that's what customers like to do and the cost of any work almost always comes to a third of the value of an inexpensive gun.

Americans seem to think we all have family heirlooms, when the reality is most sportsmen have horrible modern things, with a small subset being wealthy or vein enough to own a best gun, most of us interested in older guns make do with something churned out by the trade many moons ago.

Many guns i have relaid ribs on have been worth less as a complete entity than the value of the job.

Ultimately its no excuse for second quality work, if i rush ill be doing the work over for free in years time,

Soldier is pulled into the joint by capillary action, if the joint is evenly close it helps the soldier flow through the joint and up the rib. If you wire up properly is aids sucess.

All soldier and braze joints are stronger if the gap between the metals to be joined is very tight, this is why clean fractures can be very well repaired with braze, by wiring the ribs evenly you help keep the gap between the ribs and barrels consistently to a minimum.

Metal expands when heated, if you don't clamp lightly and evenly as you heat the rib it will lift up in hot spots as the rib will lenghthen be unable to slide under the wires and thus lift up. you end up filling the void with soldier and end up with a rib that ripples up and down throughout its length


Gunsmiths are not particularly well rewarded here in the UK if you were to enter into a aprentiship in the uk age 19 the equivalent wage would be forty eight dollars / 8 hr day.

Thats £9000 Per year assuming 2080 hours worked.
Average 1 bed flat might cost £550 per month with bills so £6600 in costs leaving you probably £6.50 or around 9 USD a day with which to meet all other costs.

I regularly see jobs advertised where experienced Machinists in general can easily be expected to work for less than someone at a local supermarket. There is probably something like 2000 practical gunsmiths in the uk though i expect most of those are above retirement age in general and work as a retirement business...
Posted By: bushveld Re: Relaying ribs question - 07/17/21 05:06 PM
Demonwolf444's writing is one of a skilled, experienced and very knowledgeable gun craftsman, and it is very evident when he states:



'........"All soldier and braze joints are stronger if the gap between the metals to be joined is very tight, this is why clean fractures can be very well repaired with braze, by wiring the ribs evenly you help keep the gap between the ribs and barrels consistently to a minimum.

Metal expands when heated, if you don't clamp lightly and evenly as you heat the rib it will lift up in hot spots as the rib will lenghthen be unable to slide under the wires and thus lift up. you end up filling the void with soldier and end up with a rib that ripples up and down throughout its length........"



Few are the number of people who understand what he states in the first of the two sentences above.


Stephen Howell
Posted By: mc Re: Relaying ribs question - 07/19/21 03:04 PM
I see
Posted By: keith Re: Relaying ribs question - 07/20/21 01:47 PM
The video on rib soldering was quite interesting. I was surprised to see him using a couple deep vise-grips to hold things together, as opposed to the specialized shop made barrel clamping fixture shown here a few years ago by Dewey Vicknair. Too bad Dewey stopped posting here, and apparently requested to have all of his excellent posts deleted. I think photos of his fixture may be on his blog or website.

I also found it interesting to see that a Sharpie marker was used to prevent solder from sticking to unwanted areas. I have used soapstone or graphite pencils to do that. But the Sharpie looks much easier and quicker. I can't wait to try it.

Not that I needed confirmation, but it is also nice to see other knowledgeable guys, with actual hands-on experience, noting that corrosive flux may be used for tinning, so long as the residue is neutralized and flushed away. Quite a number of vintage doubles were soldered with corrosive flux. I was repeatedly criticized by one know-it-all here a few years ago for recommending the excellent Oatey No. 5 tinning flux. That product has worked for me in places everything else I tried failed.
Posted By: SKB Re: Relaying ribs question - 07/20/21 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by keith
I was repeatedly criticized by one know-it-all here a few years ago for recommending the excellent Oatey No. 5 tinning flux.


I remember you thanking me for point out the corrosive qualities of that flux, you are still welcome.
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