doublegunshop.com - home
Posted By: LetFly J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/03/21 01:16 AM
I am starting up a new SxS redo project. J.P. Sauer hammer gun #87003 12b. This is a total project gun. As acquired some years back the stock had been sanded to remove all checkering and leave locks and grip cap proud. Forend wood does not appear to be original and is smooth without checkering. Release fits well and is not proud. Barrels appear to have been cut by +0.5". Right barrel measures +0.727 and left +0.724. This Sauer was produced for Johannes Mitschke in Riga, Latvia. I have added a few photos for identification. My goal is to correct the proud metal by deepening the inletting and cutting new checking in a Sauer pattern of the period. If you have a Sauer hammer gun of this period and could post a couple of photos of the checkering pattern I would appreciate it.

I would date this 1891 - 1912 based on proof stamps and no date code. Also no eagle nitro stamp.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Purchased off Gunbroker years ago for very little money. It has been sitting in the safe for the past twenty years. Decided to put it back into shooting condition. Good thing I like projects. Take it apart and look what I find...

No less than five splits in the stock head...(six, found another as I cleaned oil from the head)

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Forend wood not original...

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Project gun. I will get it ready for next year woodcock season. Close and seal all splits, refit wood to metal, replace checkering and refinish with a oil/varnish.
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/03/21 04:40 PM
I would be interested in purchasing a forend from a parts gun of this vintage should you have one sitting about. Send me a PM if you have one to sell. Thanks.
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/04/21 01:21 PM
The stock head de-oiled and cleaned. The marked lines show the splits that I will have to close and glue. Your advice on my Lefever project was invaluable so I am asking for help again on this one. I am tempted to try a small staple but the amount of wood may be a problem. Any and all advice welcome.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: Kutter Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/05/21 02:44 PM
On that one , if I couldn't open the cracks wide enough to get glue into them and be satisfied that if was sufficient to hold,,I'd cut out the individual cracks a bit to allow it.
I sometimes use a coping saw if the crack is in a position so the sawing does not cut into any other wood or cut into the edge of inletting.

Here I'd use Dental Burrs to route out the cracks with the use of a Dremel (!! Oh Dear!)

Simple straight shanked small dia burrs with some length to them are great for cutting along the crack.
They are aggressive, cut clean and leave a cut no wider than the burr itself , if that is what you want.

You can cut away wood in odd shapes if needed and around corners , do undercuts, ect.

Each of those cracks can be routed along the crack lines and even then a bit deeper at the end of the crack line by simply tipping the bit and digging deeper under the wood.
If you want to include small staple repairs at the head, those relief features needed for the staple in the wood are also quickly cut out
cleanly with the same burr while you're at it.

When ready, glue up the cracks with sufficient glue to fill the small voids & add the staple(s) and replace the metal while the glue cures.
Lightly clamp into position so the wood can be set in the proper position.
With the cracks routed out and the wood relieved, the wood can often be pushed and pulled out of shape somewhat. Sometimes that's an advantage to correct small issues. But you don't want to overdo it. Not having the metal back in place when regluing the cracks can often leave you with quite a different inlet when cured than what you may expect to see.

Here's some Burrs I'm refering too. Not necessarily the only type. Just representative of the type I use. They come in all sorts of cutting head styles. I find this style easy to use when routing out cracks from the side of a SxS stock such as this. Called a 'cylinder cutting head' style.
Lots of them available on Ebay and other places on the Web and much less expensive than these..!

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Meisinge...tner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101004420
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/05/21 06:46 PM
axusa over on the German forum raises a good question of altering the hardware geometry should I try to deepen the inletting. So..

Any experience with using veneer? I have walnut +0.064 mm thickness that would raise the level to match the metal and allow for sanding to flush. I have not tried veneer before but might try it. Would be blended in and finished to match the stock color.
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/05/21 10:07 PM
Sauer craftsmanship from the 1890's. Nicely done.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
I have seen a boxlock that had the cheeks built up with matching wood.
After staining as needed, it was almost impossible to see.... until you knew.
Seems like a workable method.

Quote
=Any experience with using veneer? I have walnut +0.064 mm thickness that would raise the level to match the metal and allow for sanding to flush. I have not tried veneer before but might try it. Would be blended in and finished to match the stock color.
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/06/21 08:07 PM
Gluing up the splits in the stock head. First step injecting glue deep into the cracks and binding tight.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/08/21 12:14 AM
Injury from nature and prior owner.

What happens when a prior own goes crazy with sandpaper. Not clear at this point how I will deal with this injury. Ideas welcome?

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Injury inflicted by nature. Over 110+ years the wood shrinks. Metal to wood gap becomes visible when both metal and wood are cleaned. Gap will be filled with Acraglas gel. Looking at this gap and the geometry of the connection between receiver and side plates it is obvious why there are splits in the stock head. All the recoil force is transmitted through these side plates to the upper wood.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Prep to apply Acraglas gel to fill the metal to wood gap.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Addition prep before bedding with Acraglas

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/08/21 08:51 PM
Receiver to stock head joint closed with Acraglas gel.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/09/21 04:43 AM
Ok, receiver to stock fit fixed. Now to work on the proud metal issue. I can employ the $500 fix, as in inletting new wood and fitting to the existing metal or I can employ the $50 fix using Acraglas to bring the surface up to the metal. Hmmmm.
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/10/21 08:48 PM
OR, how about Damascus' approach to the post (How would you fix this?) on the charred spot on the gunstock wrist? Except I will use actual walnut veneer strips (Damascus' cut and steamed walnut piece is really just a veneer) cut to fit up to the proud metal and tapered to blend back into the original wood. And I agree with his last item in the list. Getting a color match is the hard part. Also agree with Keith, this forum as a DIY source of advice and information is what sets it apart and makes it great. For many of us these tasks are one-off's and we (I) do not have a shop full of pieces to practice on. Try to get right or as right as possible the first time and then live with it.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/11/21 03:32 PM
LetFly,
If you try veneer strips, be sure to let the full thickness into the stock, on the side away from the metal. Otherwise, you will be left with a "knife edge" transition that will be difficult to hide and may "splinter off" in small sections.
Mike
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/16/21 10:04 PM
After considering the possible alternatives I have decided that I will go with adding veneer to rebuild the wood in the wrist. These photos show the four patterns I have created. The checkering pattern will flow right up to the border created by the veneer. I will transfer these patterns to the veneer strips. No experience on my end so if you have advice please help out. Pre-glued or plain? Steam to bend to form?

Top and side above sidelocks:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Bottom and below sidelocks:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/22/21 05:48 PM
First veneer panel cut. Tedious for certain. Only three more to go. This is pre-glued veneer. Sets at 300 degrees. Test pieces show it should secure to the original wood and hold well.

Top left walnut veneer filler panel
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: keith Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/22/21 08:56 PM
Looks like a very interesting and challenging project. Since you still have other veneer panels to cut, my suggestion would be to cut them slightly oversize, except where they must perfectly butt into original wood. I think it may be easier to cleanly cut the overhang at the front end and around the inletting, than to fit everything perfectly while clamping and gluing.

I have never worked with pre-glued veneer, so I would also want to do some research to find out if steaming would affect the glue bond. Before I saw that you were using a heat activated pre-glued veneer, my immediate thought was whether you would be better off with an epoxy, or some other wood glue that wouldn't be affected by steaming. Here again, I can't say if steaming will be necessary , or if the veneer is pliable enough to be wrapped around the radius of the wrist without steaming. Of course, the 300 degrees required to activate the glue should also immediately flash off any excess moisture in the veneer.... I think????

I wish you luck, because if this works out well, it could provide a viable option to restocking in some circumstances. Wish I could be more help, but without actual experience doing this, all I have are some random thoughts and considerations for you to chew on.
Posted By: Kutter Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/23/21 02:32 PM
You can lightly 'score' the back side of the pieces of veneer and that will allow them to bend more easily around the wrist shape of the stock (and other features too).

Don't go too deep or the score mark(s) will show on the outside when you start trimming it back down.
The closer the score marks are together the closer arc the venier can bend w/o breaking.
Go both ways (criss cross) and the stuff can cover some convex surfaces but not nearly as well as the commercial 3D-Veneer thats made already cross cut on the backside.
The commercial stuff is hard to find and $$.

I wouldn't even use the 300* activated glue that's on the pre-glue on the veneer. Just fit the pieces and use an epoxy or even a simple wood glue is all.
The epoxy might be better as there usually some slight voids to fill in under the wrap around method on an old surface such as a gun stock.
23weyth6Pre-glued veneer does work well on perfectly flat surfaces prepared as such.
If there's a void under the thin veneer (unsupported) there's a very good chance of pushing through it in finishing or even later handling. Then you have another 'fix-it' project within your fix-it project.

Using epoxy to build the surface works well. Then you have to seal it. plain Shellac works . Then use Earth colors to fake the wood grain and match it in. Then 'fix' your art work before the final finish over all. I use a spray enamel very light 'fix' coat over the colored up fake wood. Carefully sand that a bit. Then finish the whole stock.
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/24/21 02:07 PM
Thanks, Keith and Kutter. Good advice, appreciated and much to ponder. Here is what I am thinking at this time. Working with both epoxy and pre-glue veneer in practice mode I am leaning toward the high heat pre-glue. Why? In my trial pieces I find that heating the glue to 300 degrees results in the veneer becoming quite pliable and attaching quickly. With epoxy I experienced difficulty in getting the veneer piece to set in place without shifting. Most likely my lack of experience showing here. If the pre-glue does not work out I can use heat to remove the veneer and go to the epoxy. I have cut the pieces to minimize the number of seams. I also intend to seal these seams with thinned epoxy to prevent these from opening through handling.
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 02/28/21 08:22 PM
Making progress. Tools required include two heat set irons, one micro and one larger. Veneer roller, and assorted cutting/trim knives. Steps are: 1) using micro iron tack each veneer piece in place working from a relatively flat section to those with more curvature; 2) using large iron set to 300 degrees work each veneer piece onto the stock wrist, rolling out each section to get a complete bond to the underlying wood; 3) go around the perimeter of each piece checking for complete bond along the edge. Check to eliminate any possible air voids. Veneer is cut a 1mm large on all edges so the next step is to carefully trim all mating edges with metal. My plan is to add a finish to the wood and then add the checkering and bring it up flush with the veneer at the rear on the wrist. I am going to use a thinned epoxy to seal all veneer edges to prevent any lifting during handling.

Adding walnut pre-glued veneer to an overly sanded wrist.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 03/01/21 12:15 AM
Much better look and feel.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: Der Ami Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 03/01/21 01:53 PM
LetFly,
Your problem is going to be "begging off", when every body wants you to do this for their guns.
Mike
Posted By: mc Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 03/01/21 01:55 PM
How much use can this have before it delaminates.i think it's a good project and you are really ambitious good luck .
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 03/01/21 02:53 PM
Use the correct glue, base preparation, application and final finish sealing and it will not delaminate with normal use. Sealing all edges is critical. Also not my sporting clays gun. It will come out to bag a few woodcock a couple of time each season.
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 03/01/21 07:27 PM
I should have added this photo to the previous post. As it is not possible to use the vacuum method I find this works quite well as a substitute. The bands are silicone and will take heat well over glue setting temp of 300 degrees.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Posted By: LetFly Re: J.P. Sauer - Johannes Mitschke project - 03/06/21 03:10 AM
Frame carefully let into new wood on stock wrist. Next steps include stain to match original stock then cut new checkering.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
© The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com