I read where old time gunmakers made their own tools. How were files made?

Go on YouTube and watch the videos by a fella that posts as "Clickspring". He shows the chisels made, and in use.

Yes, I imagine most trades that used files required the knowledge of how to make the tools. Take a look at this YouTube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB58hkncznI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvr2nZeAfNc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvr2nZeAfNc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvr2nZeAfNc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvr2nZeAfNc

Making a file is not unduly difficult. It does involve some specialized skill, though. A very sharp, specially ground chisel to raise line burrs across the width of the file blank is required. The file blank needs be high carbon plain steel at minimum. Lower grades of steel may be used with case hardening (actually through carborization of the burrs). Depending on the metalurgy of the blank, heat treating can be farily simple to rather complex. This day and age, files are more or less a commodity item. I once observed one of Purdey's workmen profiling a barrel with a hand/purpose made file gifted to him by his gaffer.

DDA

Interesting!

I can’t think of very many gunmakers who learned their craft via apprenticeship, mention file making during their tool making phase (usually the first phase of the process is spending a lot of time in the machine shop and learning tool making, and to get out of that phase, your skills are judged by the master of the machine & toolmaking shop) of the apprenticeship. I talked about this with a friend of mine and he made no mention of ever making files. He did mention that file making was an entirely different animal and there were “specialists” for that....aka file making companies like Nicholson, Stanley, Grobet, Vallorbe, etc.

Thanks now I know! Must try that vinegar refreshing method on some of my old rasps.

I just viewed some nice pictures of a drop point file. The gentleman who made it told me he had been a gunmaker for years and always struggled to get drop points right on restorations. After working for a top tier London maker he was shown the proper tool for the job. I plan on making a couple in the next week or so. Different from a flat file, no need for a chisel to bump up the teeth, they are filed in. Should be a fun job.

Steve please post some pictures.

I will when I complete the one I make. The picture I saw was posted by Ian Sweetman on several FB gunsmithing forums, he is a superb finisher in the London trade.

LeFusil,
I suspect gunmakers young enough for us to know would have served their apprenticeship after the time they had to make files, instead of buy them. My late friend, Helmut Kerner, gave me a hand made "Lauf Hobel"( a special form of file) that his grandfather, Emil Kerner, made . Helmut served his apprenticeship in the factory of his other grandfather( Meffert) in the middle 1930s. His grandfather, then, must have served his in the 1800s.
Mike

Been down this road a number of times. For the Brits the file is a flat lolly pop shape, On the other side of the pond a disk about 1/2 diameter diameter about 1/4 inch thick with a 1/4 inch neck about an inch long set in a handle. The cutting part is the disk edge having serrations cut from face to face with a triangular file close together. If you want rounded bases on you drop points round the disk edges. You can use tool steel to make them but I always used mild steel and case hardened them, far easier to re sharpen they just went smaller over the years.
I have looked high and low for my set of drop point files but cant find them, and stock making is out for me now, eyesight not so hot.

When I started my apprenticeship at BSA Birmingham UK 1965 almost the first thing we had to do was take a block of steel 3x3x3 inches and had to file only make it square and true in all directions. This is very difficult to do and you scrap a few till it comes off. But afterwards you always remember how to file (holding it and body position is important). Spoke to some German engineers and they had to do the same thing. Just shows the difference between the two continents cultures US wants to machine everything.

Actually, I know someone here that told me of the cube filing exercise.

I have a large dice which was hand filed by my uncle in Switzerland in the 1930's during his apprenticeship as a machinist. When learning to file years ago I tried to make cubes out of pieces of aluminium, with little success; it is very difficult.

Helmut Kerner, that I mentioned above, was tested in action filing and stock making for the two skills needed to get his Master's Cert. For the filing, he filed a plate 2cm thick, flat, 5x5cm, with parallel faces. He filed a 2cm square hole( I guess starting with drilled hole) in the plate and filed a 2cm cube that fit into the square hole at all orientations without light shining through the joints. It sounds simple. but it is not.
Mike

It doesn't sound simple to me. Not at all.

Paul Bruchet had a tool that he made for rough fitting tubes into a mono block. It was made from a large piece of spring steel, the teeth were perhaps 2” long, and an inch wide, with a space between each of them. He called it a “float”, and the thing removed steel in a hurry.
Never have seen anything like it.

Best,
Ted

I read where one of the tests for an apprentice was filing flat steel surfaces to a 'sucking fit' where they had to be slid apart. I assume a bit of oil was first applied?

When you stack gauge blocks to check a micrometer you “wring”, or, wipe the surface with your finger to clean it of dust and deposit a thin coat of skin oil, which statically holds the two gauge blocks together.
The only guys I ever knew who could get a surface that precise were the guys on the surface grinders.

Best,
Ted

Another friend from my days in Germany was Gerold Pheffer, who was a barrel fitter for Heym, but did "side jobs" in Walter Grass' shop. He could get that type finish, and when polishing the work used a very finecut file, loaded it with chalk, and put oil on the chalk.
Mike

So can these finecut files be resharpened or were they replaced, even when they were made by hand?

Great story, thanks for sharing. Did Helmut say whether he had to make files during his apprenticeship like his grandfather did?
Many of the specialized files I see on benches these days are modified (by the gunmaker) , commercially available files.

Hal,
Files, including finecut files were generally replaced, not resharpened, by the time I was there( 1970s). On the other hand, I can't say they were never resharpened, I just never heard anyway say they did it.

Le Fusil, Helmut didn't mention having made files. I guess by the 1930s, machine made files were the "norm".
Mike

In the days back when I was an apprentice fifty plus it was my job to re sharpen Magneto and pivot files. Battery strength Sulphuric Acid was used, usually left in the acid for about four hours. Also there where a number of companies at that time who would re furbish files, they did a good job of it to, I still have a couple though they would only refurbish branded files like "Stubs"& other top makers.

Damascus;

Thank you for that information. I did not know that there were firms resharpening files at that late of a date. Did these firms come around to the shops to pick up the old files?

I am sure the small companies who did this work amongst other things they did like re grinding milling cutters. Where left over from WW2 because over here until the late sixties the words "Make do and mend" did mean something also tools where still very expensive. Being a rather inquisitive young individual I did ask what they did with the files, this was what I was told. The worn files where heated to bright red destroying the temper then rolled between two pattern mill rollers applying the new file pattern on the file, the original manufactures name on the file was obliterated in the process. Then the file was re hardened for use.

Thank you all for the informative replies. I have lots of old files that my dad had when he built guns. Guess they are all just junk now.

There is a place in CA, Boggs Tool and File Sharpening that is supposed to do really good work . I haven't used them but intend to try.

No, no, no.
Don't do that.

Use acid or electrolysis to clean off the corrosion. Card them, oil them, and use them.

Hal,
They were your Dad's, they aren't junk. I am reminded of screwdrivers that Walter and Fred used every day that were made from files(mostly pilar files). They were twisted( of course while red hot) to keep them from breaking from the torque. I still use files that Walter retired and gave me. Since I wasn't making a living with them, a few extra strokes to finish a cut didn't hurt anything. I'm sure your Dad's files still have useful life left in them; and when not, you can make something.
Mike

Pics of home made files are always welcome. I have some blanks roughed out and my new, finer checkering file should be here next week.

This brings up barrel striking files. Has anyone seen them before?

SKB,
I'm not sure if I know what a barrel striking file is, but if it is the same as a "lauf hobel"( barrel plane). A modern one is a square file ( about 1"square) 6-8" long without a tang , with different "cuts". It is used lengthwise of the barrel to level out milling marks. I could not find one in the US and asked a friend to bring me one from Germany, but he mentioned it to Helmut Kerner and Helmut sent me one his grandfather Emil made. Being old and well used, it is a treasured gift, but doesn't work well on modern steel. Consequently, I approximated one by buying the largest square file I could find( 3/4" square) and cutting both ends off. Properly used, it is one way to avoid rounding off an octagon barrel.
Mike

Mike,
The only ones I have seen a picture of were in a pile of gunsmithing tools at a British auction. It has been several years now but if memory serves they were concave in various radi and had off set handles similar to a goose neck chisel.
Steve

SKB, the one I saw at Purdey's was a block of steel that fit nicely in the hand. The cutting edge was convex (I don't know the radius, but on the order of 1/2") and it was used single handed. I'd guess that the burrs were raised with a chisel.

Amazing what you don't know to ask or forget!

DDA

SKB,
That is interesting, it seems to be a useful idea, also for backing up abrasive when polishing. The one described by Rocketman could also be useful. It's amazing how different people come up with different ways to do a job. I find a Barrett(?)file very useful working around the ribs on doubles and drillings; even more than a Knife file, because it is thinner.( I can't stand in front of a vise for any length of time any more)
Mike

I use these for backing abrasive paper when polishing barrels:

https://www.amazon.com/Profile-Contour-S...NBMVWT4299FR59T

SKB,
They would have made things easier when I was still able to do anything, If I had known about them ( I had to make my own "expedient" if a file wouldn't work).
Mike

I noticed the end of one of my dad's (born 1898) half-round files had been ground into a gouge for barrel inletting. Wonder if that was a common "make do" practice?

I wouldn’t mind seeing pictures of a striking file.

For holding sheet abrasives, I made some using decent hardwood. I just drilled a hole for the radius I wanted then cut through the middle of it with a band saw and left enough meat to form some sort of grip and way to steady the paper. They hold up for many years and don’t scratch if it hits the work. For narrow spots, I use acrylic triangle stock for the backer. I consider them disposable, but they hold up good enough, and are easily cut to different lengths and reshaped as needed.

I have a few files that I ground off teeth to make safe files so they don’t cut on one or two surfaces. The belt grinder will do it quickly, and keep them cool enough and pretty true.

Think James Howe's "The Modern Gunsmith" shows striking files made from Vixen files.
Chuck

drop point file, made from 1095, the teeth were cut with a 50 tpi checkering file.

I had a beval edged paring chisel that was made up from an old file, it was surface ground on all edges then flatted out on oilstones to get the sharp edge, I could only pare wood with it as it would shatter if struck with a mallet but it never lost its edge while in my ownership. Sadly it went west with all my tools on the boat coming back from Canada 1971. Now I have had one remade in the old style.

Special files are rather easy to make for a special purpose. Thinking back about hand saws, the rip saw and cross cut saw. These were sharpened, and even the teeth were set by carpenters of the past, There were special vises that were designed to hold the saw blade for filing. The key was the saws were made (I am assuming) out of a medium carbon steel, were were "spring tempered" so they had toughness to retain the edge but also could be filed to sharpen.

You can made a special purpose file out of an old file, anneal the file, cut the teeth with a tree corner file before hardening and tempering. Now it can be sharpened like the crosscut saw when it needs it. After hardening and tempering lightly sharpen to get the edge back. The extra narrow pillar file, about 5/16 by 1/8 is in a shape to make a special file. Obviously, these are wood cutting saws, I mean files.

Thanks for the additional comments about forming file teeth, Dennis. I still have my Grandfather's hand saw jointer and tooth set. It took a while, but eventually I switched to reaching for a hand saw as a first choice for quick cuts even though I have power tools ready to go.

Just for a quick side comment, years ago I made two back saws just for fun. The readily available material for making the blade is generically sold as 'blue temper steel', which is basically 1095 tempered back to 50ish Rc, right around your spring temper.