Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it?

Posted by: Peter Weber

Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/16/08 11:15 PM

12 ga. Otto Geyger shotgun. Can anyone point to who made this action?

Posted by: Timothy S

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/16/08 11:41 PM

Looks like a Charles Daly to me.
Posted by: Jerry Mouer

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/17/08 06:24 AM

It appears to be a boxlock with top and bottom sears as found on J. P, Sauer & Sohn model XIV. Is there a double S stamp on the watertable? Sauer would be my guess.
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/17/08 08:59 AM

I think Jerry Mouer has nailed it. It looks to be a rounded action, not the flat top and could also be a Model 17(most likely) or 18(chopperlump-Meisterwerk and usually has gold inlay) with the overhanging and lower intercepting(Schnitt-from cutway) scears. I'm curious if "Special-Gewehr-Lauf-Stahl" is on the the tubes. O.(Oscar/Otto?) Geyger peddled longarms mainly by Oskar Merkel(with the typical Merkel frame which this one doesn't have) of Suhl but also included some Johann Paul Sauer weapons such as longarms and the Behorden Model 7,65 Calibre pistol, which along with a typewritter can be seen in a circa 1935 O.(Otto/Oscar?) Geyger advertisment. Sauer was taking it on the chin in the 1920s and early 1930s and closed their Berlin office and O. Geyger became the sole agent. Oscar Geyger began circa 1890(moved around 1900) and held the power of attorney for N.v. Dreyse weapons company, Oscar Geyger & Company.

Any chance of getting a pic of the watertable & flats?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: Peter Weber

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/17/08 07:15 PM

I wish I had a camera that could focus down that close. The barrels have a lone letter "s" just forward of the flats, as well as the 3 digit serial number. The water table has only proofs, a 3 digit serial number, and gauge listed. The outside of the barrels has only "O.Geyger, Berlin" and the word "Nitro".

The gun has 2 ivory beads, an articulated front trigger, and a proof mark on the stock, a letter "S" with what appears to be an upside down chevron (pointing up) over it, just forward of the rear sling swivel.

One more thing, ... I have seen cased guns that said "Otto Geyger" not Oscar on the case label. Were there 2 different Geyger firms operating ?
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/17/08 07:55 PM

Peter:

How about a "S" with another "S" slightly above and overstamped w/ a "U" overstamped(Sauer and Sauer or Sauer & Sohn)? Just glancing at the Berlin addresses, it is either father and son or a misspelling(my vote is for father & son). I've seen mostly "O. Geyger" after 1900 and the "O." wasn't spelled out. But the O. Geyger Company in Berlin was the retailer that peddled Sauer's products as well as Oskar Merkel's.
So there's not a date stamp and the gauge designation is in a circle?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: John Mann

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/17/08 09:44 PM

I would suggest that the S on the barrels, if in a cartouche, is the mark of Schilling. He was a renowned barrel maker in Suhl.
Best,
John
Posted by: Peter Weber

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/18/08 06:36 AM

Gauge designation is in a circle. No date stamp.
Posted by: Run With The Fox

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/18/08 01:12 PM

I saw a nice 12 ga. Sauer und Sohn (Suhl) boxlock ejectorof the side-by this past week in a small town gun shop- pre-War with the cocking indicators on the sides receiver- about where the reionforcing "bosses" might be- it had a cheekpiece buttstock with recoil pad- believe 28" Krupp barrels- and those darned sling swivels the European doubles often have-nice looking gun, another gent was looking at it- are those style of cocking indicators still in use today on German/Austrian double guns??
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/18/08 06:26 PM

RWTF:

I guess if you have someone carry your longarm from you to shoot then you wouldn't need the swivels. When hunting I consider the sling, i.e. sling swivels, a necessity. But the cocking indicators didn't last too much past WWII. Sauer had planned to introduce a pop-out indicator at the 1937 German Hunting Exhibition, but pre-WWII examples haven't surfaced. But MEWA and Thalmann as well as Sauer Eckernford doubles did take advantage of the technology on post WWII models. Regarding the "clock-hand" indicators on doubles, I don't think they were used post WWI and with the drillings using a "clock-hand" indicator, or other cocking indicator, up to and possibly thru the mid 1930s.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: Peter Weber

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/19/08 05:18 PM

If you don't mind, I'm putting this up in the front again.

Still looking for information.
Posted by: J. Stephens

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/19/08 07:26 PM

Well fellers heres the deal. At this point in time no one seems to definitivly know which company produced the actions for untold numbers of German makers. It is clear however, that Sauer did produce some frame forgings for the trade, as well as other components. Some folks SPECULATE that Sauer produced forgings for Lindner (Charles Daly) but offer no real proof. These Lindner forgings could have been produced by Krupp or simson or Merkel or Mauser (less likely) for all that we know. Lets be clear hear. Anyone that says that Sauer produced the actions for Linder is only offering opinion.

In regards to the Geyger action above, it is closer to a Linder type Action then a Sauer Action. Lindner actions usually seen having the large prominent screw in the middle of the minor frame panel AND cocking indicators thru the top of the frame.

As for the Elephant in this room (so to speak) Does your Geyger have the Lindner type of "Ejector eyes" on the sides of the forend? Can you post a picture of the frame and forend in place so that we can see if the forend does indeed have these aforementioned eyes or anchors? Danke and best.

Jeff
Posted by: treblig1958

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/19/08 09:11 PM

Very interesting discussion, Lindner who built the guns marketed under the Charles Daly name was supplied forgings by some other German maker. This could get interesting real fast!!
Posted by: Peter Weber

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 08:59 AM

Some more photos. I hope these shed some more light on my topic ...









Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 09:22 AM

Peter: could you measure the length of the action? On the side of the tube does it have a "crown" over "N" with the word "Nitro"? This coupled w/ the vulgar fractions could put it's proof prior to WWI, the time when Charles Daly had expired(1899) and H.A. Lindner was winding down.

Very nice w/ square crossbolt, sideclips, ejectors, straight stock. It still looks like a Model 17, with similar ejectors, to me but I could be very wrong and I do see the likeness to a H.A. Linder, who I believe sourced his frames. Lindner could also have gotten the frames from Triebel(H.A. married Hedwig Trieble), Theime-Schlegemilch, August Schuler or even Schilling. I think AKAH peddled Schuler's and most should have 'Schuler' or 'ASS'(August Schuler Suhl). This example just goes to show just how intricate the connection were in Suhl, and surrounding Zella St. Blasii and Mehlis and how dependent all were on weapons making; a very long tradition.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: John Mann

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 09:26 AM

Please measure the length of the action from the breech face to the middle of the pin. Be very accurate.
Show a picture of the under side of the fore end.
The square cross bolt is a very good clue. As is the three digit serial number and the Berlin address of the seller.
Best,
John
Posted by: Amigo Will

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 10:12 AM

From what I can see the forearm lug looks much to narrow to be a Lindner gun though the action looks much like one.I believe this must be from one of the fine S named makers not Lindner.
Posted by: Peter Weber

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 10:17 AM

This is the best I could do. Also, on the lower portion of eacg barrel is the word "NITRO", but not a crown over the letter "U". It looks more like the crown over the eagle. Now, I'm more confused.



I'm guessing the measurement to be 1 15/16ths", or 2 ".
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 10:18 AM

Peter:

"Eagle Nitro" is a common mark on Sauers proofed/proved after 4/1912. It's usually on the side of the tube just up from the flat. Interesting that the flats doesn't show that the tubes have choke. Could you give us a pic of the bottom of the frame?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: Peter Weber

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 10:25 AM



Here ya go ...
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 10:33 AM

Peter:

I don't see any gas ports on the standing breech. Does it have disk set strikers? Could you also give us a measurement of the width of the watertable about where the eagle or the number 7x5 is? Also, does it have the menancing muzzle/crosshatching?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: Jagermeister

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 11:16 AM

It proly came from the same outfit that used to offer much beloved 'Clamshell' action to pre-WWII small shop gun makers.
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 11:32 AM

Come to think of it, it also looks similar to longarms by the gunmaker and metalworker Oskar Will, with a square crossbolt, of Zella St. Blasii or later Zella-Mehlis. I'm curious if Lindner sourced any components from Oskar Will?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: obsessed-with-doubles

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 12:17 PM

Nice gun. If it's for sale, please drop me a line at:

hfn_03570@yahoo.com

OWD
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 12:51 PM

Peter:

Do you have a pic of the S in a sidewise or inverted chevron like the Suhl mark and a pic of the buttplate. In Mr. Jim Cate's longarm book on page 244 is a Sauer Daly "Diamond Quality" 12 bore double without side clips with confounding serial number 681. Mr. Cate notes it as a Model/Grade 60 and a pre-WWI, auto-ejector, rectangular Greener crossbolt, roundtop with similar cocking indicators(possibly DRGM 130243). It also has very similar frame screw configuration to the O. Geyger. It has chequered church window panels and P.O.W. grip w/ gold inlay fowl on the triggerbow and gold inlay setter on the underside of the receiver.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: Peter Weber

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/20/08 01:10 PM

No buttplate pics. gun has a Silvers Pad.
Posted by: Peter Weber

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/23/08 07:33 AM

Just hoping to bring yhis back to the forefront ...
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/18/10 03:42 PM





O. Geyger #1454 DR in 8X57 with the odd serial number sequence on the watertable. This is the highest number I've found.




O. Geyger with the "Sl" tube forge stamp just ahead of the flats. I still believe Berhnard Merkel played some part in the manufacture of these unique style frames as peddled by J.J. Reeb and other firearms merchants.

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/23/10 09:49 AM



Here's the marks between the flats and the forend lug for Geyger #1454. Looks like the Louis Kelber mark of a "K" in a jagged circle, a script "M" near the forend lug and a script "E.W.". I wonder what the line across the "Krupp Stahl"(??) on the underside of the left tube might be as well as why it was finished that way?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/24/10 06:09 PM


Interesting that the Mauser has Louis Kelber's marks as well as "E.W." and then "R.S."
Robert Schlegelmilch seems to have been a principal in Suhler Waffenfabrik Schlegelmilch & Metzner. And I guess Metzner to be one of Albin, Georg or Max or the possibility exits that he was Albin Georg Max Metzner and there were a couple generations. At any rate Suhler Waffenfabrik Schlegelmilch & Metzner was dissolved in 1901 and Suhler Waffenfabrik Robert Schlegelmilch emerged and existed till 1923.

Note that the O. Geyger has only a single "K" in a jagged circle while the Mauser tube has 2 stamps of the "K" in a jagged circle. I'd guess that the additional marks note additional effort and that a script set of initals just might mean a specific effort.

from below:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post112676


Berger Locks


Daly with "CFW" on tube. Friedrich Werner was listed as an owner of a Waffenschmiede in the 1920s.

I think the craftsman "E.W" is in the same family line as "C.F.W." with both being Werners. There were a couple of Christian Werners in the mid to late 1800s with one being a master stocker and the other being a polisher.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/26/10 11:55 PM



1st, I'll have to say that the marks on the tubes of this Muzzelschluß DR aren't on a O. Geyger but a W. Foerster. However, it does has the same addressing of the fences as those on O. Geyger's and J.J. Reeb's examples, but also a clamshell. The owner came thru with a lovely effort capturing 3 sets of "R.S." initials. I'd guess this A&D W. Foerster, as found in Bell's article in DGJ Vol. 5 Issue 3 at page 40, was made circa 1910-1912. I think it to be a transitional time when mechanization was taking the place of efforts that were previously performed by hand. I'd guess Bernhard Merkel filed the frame and Robert Schlegelmilch performed about anything that had to do with the tubes. Of course Richard Schüler has the same initials but in my opinion I don't think he could file his way out of a wet paper bag and was more of a firearms merchant or businessman than a in the trenches craftsman. Many mastercraftsmen recoginzed the writing on the wall and became very good businessmen, which in the end removed themselves from the actual work involved in making a quality piece. Now they knew what it should be, but sourced the components and subed the work or just sourced the longarm in the finished state with his name roll stamped on the top rib or tube. It was very difficult to be a mastercraftsman and a business man. The 2 could exist in harmony, or be synonymous early on, but were on diverging paths. I'm beginning to think H.A. Lindner was no different and was more of a business man who had an exceptional eye for quality. Some may disagree, but why are the initials of well established craftsmen found on his examples? At any rate the Berlin contingent, with the exception of Fischer and a few others, heavily sourced the craftsmen of Suhl and Zella-Mehlis for their example. Almost all the quality German pieces peddled were the effort of the mastercraftsmen in Suhl & Zella-Mehlis.

And then there's the ominpresent "K" in a rhombus or rotated square. There may be an exception, but all the clamshell's I've viewed had Krupp steel tubes.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 07/30/10 08:08 PM




A lovely Bartels double from April 1929 and listed at G&H. Many thanks to Mr. Beach for his efforts in acquiring the pics. Note the "K" after the steel type. There aren't that many families with the last name "K" post WWI. Bartel's didn't make 344xx examples and I'd looks to Suhl for a maker having that serial number range in the late 1920s.

A DR by Ludwig Schiwy of Berlin with Böhler steel tubes with number 15xxx as found in DGJ Vol. 13, Issue page 74 has a very similar "K" on the lower rib. Schiwy didn't make 13k examples and with a April 1938 date at the Suhl proofhouse, I'd looks toward one of the Merkel craftsman as being the source for it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse



Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 08/26/10 02:17 PM

W. Foerster at Safari Outfitters: http://www.safarioutfittersltd.com/EuropeanPage10.htm

Looks like it was made during WWI or prior to 1923 in Suhl.







Is this Greener's Rational or a Facile Princeps variant? Anyone know if the term "Perch Belly" applies?



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 12/05/11 05:47 PM

Originally Posted By: ellenbr



O. Geyger with the "Sl" tube forge stamp just ahead of the flats. I still believe Berhnard Merkel played some part in the manufacture of these unique style frames as peddled by J.J. Reeb and other firearms merchants.



http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20i%20j%20k/a%20jamar%20freres%20gb.htm

Peter(PeteM), I think your suspicions on the Sl tube makers mark being of Belgian origin is one step closer to becoming acknowledged or vetted. I really don't think it is Brothers Jamar but their source for tubes. The stamps looks very similar and I think the probability of a tube making firm in Liege & Suhl to have the same stamp to be very low. So one of the Liege firms with a Krupp license, and other German I'm sure, was being sourced by the Suhl craftsmen.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: PeteM

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 12/05/11 06:08 PM



Take a good look at the image on top of the page, a winged J with a crown. Dollars to donuts, they used that as trademark at one time.


Pete
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 12/05/11 07:15 PM

Peter:
What's the "Pieces Detachees Pour Fusils De Chasse" translate to? Do you think Jamart was into tubes?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: PeteM

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 12/05/11 10:02 PM

Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Peter:
What's the "Pieces Detachees Pour Fusils De Chasse" translate to? Do you think Jamart was into tubes?


"Spare parts for hunting guns" . I would not be surprised at all.

Pete
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 12/07/11 08:35 PM

Just wanted to add a pic of an E. Schmidt & Habermann dreilufer with an Sl stamp that I somehow moved or something on this Bochumer Verein thread:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=172393&page=2



Note that the Sl touchmark is coupled with the Witten steel type stamp.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


Posted by: ellenbr

Re: Otto Geyger shotgun. Who made it? - 12/09/11 11:20 AM

Here's an O. Geyger with Bhler Antinit steel tubes:


So PeteM were the Belgians churning out tubes of Bhler steel also?




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse