Hi all, curious to know how you all close a SxS (loaded not on empty chambers)?

I've heard that you should ride the opening lever over, then push it until it locks. I've also heard that you close the bbls by snaping them shut.

I've always rode the lever over.

Your thoughts please.

All the best!!

Greg

This was addressed here in great length before, however no one seemed to use my method. As I hunt in mostly heavy brush I just whack it closed on the nearest sapling. Hope this helps.

Thanks Pinduck, I didn't know there was a discussion on this. Do you or anyone else have a link? That way we won't have to hash over old news.

Thanks again!!!

Greg

Keep your fingers out of the gap between action and barrels. Other than that, just snap the damn thing shut and don't worry about it.

I firmly believe my sxs guns should be closed by hand! Other methods using trees, car doors, dogs and other animals seem to have side effects.

Lets see if I can recall all the ways posted from the last time this came up.
Slowly close while holding the lever over, then release lever
snap it shut but nicely
slowly close without holding lever over
raise the butt while holding the lever over
raise the butt without holding the lever over

But, seriously...a sxs should be closed as the owner sees fit. It's his gun, and if he wants to operate it a certain way, I have no issues with that as long as it doesn't get pointed at me, my family, my dog, or my friends.

I was taught the following way by a yeoman Worcestershire farmer sadly gone before us. It's a safety related thing but mechanically correct too. I say taught but it was more enforcement; any safety transgression was punished mercilessly.

Drop the gun open so that the barrels are pointed at the ground in front of you; take a couple of cartridges out of your pocket and drop them in; then smartly raise the stock and action to meet the barrels, not t'other way round. You now have a choice as to which way you hold the gun ... up to you and circumstances.

No need to twiddle with the top lever, a smart closure ensures a tight lock up.

Eug

If you would be inspecting a potential purchase of a nice double at a gun show, I would recommend one of Chuck's suggestions: "Slowly close while holding the lever over, then release lever".

Otherwise you may receive some un-complimentary remarks in additional to several dirty looks by bystanders.

Same if you were looking at a friends gun.

If your gun, I guess whatever method you want.

Respectfully, Jolly.

Just for curiosity, I checked four British gun authors - Gough Thomas, Burrard, Churchill and Tucker. Couldn't find anything said about how to close a SxS - suggesting that perhaps the question isn't worth comment, and the shooter is free to use whatever method he prefers, so long as it doesn't endanger anyone or obviously abuse the mechanism. The Brits who made them referred to most SxSs as 'snap' actions, referring to the act of closing them...could that be a hint?

Check Paul A. Curtis 1934 Guns and Gunning page 379-380 I think- I agree with the hold the lever and ease it closed until you have purchased the gun- main reason why so many dealers at gun shows want you to ask before you handle a weapon they have for sale- RWTF

In many cases we're dealing with 100 year old plus guns here. If it's yours and you want to continuously snap it shut so be it but keep your hands off my guns. I don't slam the doors shut on classic cars either.
Jim

Yeah, I used to have a hunting partner who did the "butt up and ease the lever" method on his Spanish sidelock. He put on cotton gloves to clean his guns - and took forever doing so. He also used a different load in each barrel, and missed many a flush while fumbling around reloading. He spent so much time and effort coddling his guns, he became a real drag to hunt with - I hunt with him no longer.

Close and handle your gun any way you wish, so long as it's safe. But please, don't go around giving lectures or dirty looks to anyone who doesn't subscribe to your method - unless you really believe God annointed you as the Great Arbiter of Gun Closing.

If you're really worried about the "correct" method, get a copy of the movie "The Shooting Party" and watch closely when the pro loaders open and close their masters' guns. See how many use the "butt up and ease the lever" method when the birds are flying.

Just close it. Don't slam it, don't snap it. Just close it. Keep your hands off the lever, clear of the triggers. Make sure the bbls are pointed in a safe direction - up in the air or at the ground, away from other shooters, dogs, and your own foot.

If you hold the lever and then slide it into place once the gun is closed, the bolt will not properly seat in the bites.

This will cause the gun to go off the face faster because the bbls can now have some play on the hook. Every time you fire the gun, this play turns into more wear - something you want to avoid.

OWD

According to W.W. Greener in "The Gun and Its Development" (Cassell & Co., London, 1910, page 436): "The barrels of a breach-loader should never be jerked down, nor should they be thrown back into position with a snap. The proper manner in which to load a gun is to drop the stock under the elbow, and press it firmly against the hip or the body, unfasten the lever with the right hand, and with the left grasping the barrels a few inches in front of the fore-end, lower them easily. Close the gun in a careful manner after putting in the cartridges, bringing the stock up to the barrels."

That said, I use my SXS's in Cowboy Action Shooting and they get opened with the right hand by snapping the barrels down very hard, while pulling two shells with the left, loading them and then slamming it shut as fast as possible. I also shoot black powder. Needless to say, I don't use mint collectables for this little exercise. An ideal gun is a Win. 24 or a Miroku-built one with double triggers.

OWD - Your point that 'eased' closing could prevent the bolt from seating properly is exactly right. The mechanism is designed to close firmly without a well-meaning 'assist' from the gunner or loader. I think 'snap' closing is just closing the gun as you advise, allowing the mechanism to 'snap' (not slam) shut.

If there was a value to easing the lever closed with your thumb, you'd think the gunmakers would have said so...far as I know, they didn't.

This will cause the gun to go off the face faster because the bbls can now have some play on the hook. Every time you fire the gun, this play turns into more wear - something you want to avoid.

OWD

WOW! My guns must have worn out years ago from the easy closing treatment some have received for up to 40 years. But wait! Here's my first decent double a Sterlingworth with untold thousands of rounds thru it that still on face and locks up like a bank vault door. What's wrong with this picture??
Jim

Hi all and thanks for the great responses. I think that OWD maybe the common sense way of closing. While I have always closed mine by riding the lever (I stll do and will when I'm done cleaning and storing the gun). But I think when out hunting with shells in the chamber closing the gun like OWD may be the ticket, after all I've always wondered about the gun being closed tight enough.

Anyone else care to comment?

Thanks again!!

Greg

At the end of the day, we really don't know which way is better. We can guess and pontificate about closing one slowly without holding the lever over vs. letting the lever go after closing it. I can see the logic to both methods. Perhaps it depends on the age and wear on the mechanism. A new gun or recently rejointed one sometimes won't close all the way unless you let the lever go home by itself. I really hate to see a guy slam one shut, which I see all the time at the skeet range. A lot of those guys shoot Kreighoffs and Kohlers and they seem to hold up for years. They would hold up for decades longer if they were closed differently, IMHO.

My Father, who shot Remington Model 1894s and a 1902-vintage Parker Bros. was stearn in his admonishing to hold the toplever to the right, gently close the gun and then gently let the toplever over!

In one of his books I seem to remember reading that Elmer Keith said one should do an underbolted gun that way, but a rotary bolted gun should be snapped shut so the bolt firmly seats. Tony G's minions have told me that about their Fox guns, to snap them shut.

My Superposed manuals state "let the toplever snap into position--do not retard its action with your thumb.

I'm greatly conflicted by Dad's teaching and the contrary points of view!! I think letting the toplever go home gently has some merit in guns with 100 year old V toplever springs. Guns with a coil toplever spring like a Fox or late Parker Bros., I'm not so sure it matters.

My youngest SxS is 1925.

If a guy handles one of my SxS's and starts riding the lever around...I correct him. If he chooses to continue his days of handing my guns are over.

Yes , I guess each to his own way ...
as long as there is no sapling assisted opening/closing(that was a good'un, who ever said it!:)especially if there are using my Gun.
My go to Gun is a steel bbl,1901 W W Greener w/Henry Jones U/L....:), so small trees wouldn't help a whole lot either way
But wait!........

I can see a new thread ,,,,,
clunkersnap!
Franc

How do you close an underlever ?...

I shot a nice one today never gave it any thought.

Slightly off topic but still related. How many of you slam the clyinder home on a revolver like the "Cowboy" detectives used to in those Grade B thrillers?
Jim

I ended up with a double post here so I'm editing the second one. I can think of a couple of instances where some extra persuasion is desirable with firearms. When inserting a magazine into a semiauto pistol I usually "seat" the magazine with a sharp rap from the heel of my hand. Again it's always recommended that the slide be allowed to return to battery unabated when chambering the 1st round with a semiauto.
Jim

Think about it! If holding the top lever over is the supposed "correct" method, why did they put a spring in the system? And why a tapered lug arrangement. An overcenter cam lever arrangement would be better if manual operation of the toplever was the goal.

For heaven's sake, Salopian and Eugene. Must I always be the one to keep the side up? WE all know the proper answer is,"I really don't know. Someone always closes my guns for me!"
(Tosses toffee-nose and ponces off, stage left.)

Well said Leo. The Brits say they have no need of a self-opening gun, might put someone out of work.

""How many of you slam the clyinder home on a revolver""

I think I missed something here. In exactly "Which Post" was it recommended to ""SLAM"" a double shut.
There is as much difference in bringing the stock up to the bbls & allowing the bolts to ""Snap"" in as there is between Twiggy & Dolly Partain . At least address the answers as given, not your wild version of them. No inteligent person recommends ""Slamming"" them.

Hi all, I've seen and heard of one raising the butt and action to meet the bbls when closing. What if any are the advantages to this method?

Thanks and all the best!!

Greg

My gunsmith pal and pistol enthusiast is Tony Comello- former USN armorer- he and I both like our Colt Python .357's- we NEVER slam the cylinder shut- wheelguns are great weapons and the springs are never under load until the weapon is cocked-but the alignment of the cylinder and the chambers to the axis of the barrel throat is critical- also the timing- why slam a finely adjusted-tuned mechanism? My boxlock doubles are stored in the safe with snap caps and the hammers are let down to take tension off the springs- and are ALWAYS opened to re-cock before being taken down for cleaning. And I close them like Paul Curtis showed in his l934 book-I let the top lever snap home but it is not slammed shut, EVER!!

I was of the persuasion that like a good pocket watch, one held the lever in the open position, closed the action and then let go of the lever. But after reading some discussions, I did a test for myself on a Browning BSS 20 gauge, using the previously cited method and then closing the action with a brisk snap but not slam. Each time I noted the final position of the opening lever as well as made a qualitative judgment about the force required to reopen the action. I became convinced that briskly closing the action resulted in a tighter lock up which is how I handle my own shotguns today. But if perusing a gun that's not mine, I hold the lever and then close. If shooting a gun that's not mine I ask how the owner closes the gun.
BTW, you can slam my Kolar until the 'cows come home' and I'm convinced it won't make any difference in my lifetime!-Dick

I've watched an old skeet shooter friend slam, and I do mean slam, his Perazzi, 4 bbl, SCO Gold sideplate, for at least the 8-9 yrs I've known him, and he's had the gun for many yrs longer. The gun is not loose. A testament to the Pgun. I still wouldn't treat my gun that way.

Muzzle control, easier to keep the muzzle pointed to the ground. I first read about this method in an old book (copyright 1948) I have by George Baekeland titled "Gunner's Guide"

If the SxS is French...and opens and closes with a toggle lever....then the proper way to close it is to gently but forcefully SLAM it shut :-)


Dont worry about it ever coming off face or the action getting loose or worn out either...just doesnt happen.

I've shot trap and skeet for years and have noted shooters who use a lot more force to close their doubles than necessary. Whether it's considered "slamming" or not is a moot point. No one here has recommended doing this; however it IS done and THAT was my point.
:)Jim

If you bring the buttstock up and the gun is stiff the barrels can end up pointing close to your own feet. Even Britt coaches, have amended their advice to hold the buttstock next to your side with the gun tilted slightly, then raise the barrels until closed. The barrels will still be safely pointed at the ground right in front. No mention of holding the toplever. The gun should closed firmly without slamming shut, "as you might close a heavy glass door".

Which also means that the gun is locked in battery while still pointed at the ground - and has to go through a significantly greater arc to be brought into firing position. I prefer not having loaded guns pointed to the ground and swinging up when my dog is out in front. IMHO, lifting the forend to bring the barrels up into battery provides better muzzle control.

BTW, how does a gunner lift the buttstock up and ease the lever over at the same time? Photos I've seen of the "butt up" method show the gunner's hand at the butt end.

Each to his own? Opinions, professional and amateur, all over the place.

Personally, I ease the lever back into position. This may be a backlash from a personal incident years ago when I loaned a trap gun to a friend. He never got to fire the gun because the first time he opened and closed it for familiarization, he slammed it closed so hard he couldn't open it again. Handed it back with some mealy-mouthed comments. I don't loan guns anymore.

Really, it doesn't make sense that the bolt on a well built gun should need a running start to show up for work.

All that aside, it is interesting to note that Winchester was skittish enough about bolts slamming home that they incorporated a stop-bolt to prevent over agressive engagement. Somewhere in one of these discussions a few months ago I said I thought it was a silly idea to even consider putting the issue of depth-of-engagement in the hands of the man on the street. Let's be honest. Not everyone reads the directions, and not everyone can change a lightbulb (which doesn't mean they can't buy a gun). Anyway, I got hammered for my cheeky remark, so there must be a contingent out there that are v concerned about bolt wear and I doubt they are slammers.

The thought is that the act of closing the gun is the time when an accidental discharge is most likely to occur. Once the gun is closed it is easy to point the gun in a safe direction while bringing up the muzzle. If you are unable to bring a gun from pointing at the ground to a ready position without the muzzles sweeping something you don't want to shoot you keep them pointed at the ground.



That's correct, you can't do both. I'm of the belief that gun makers designed bolts to close under their own power.

5E- I agree with you in not loaning your guns out to others as we all have different habits- I went to H.G. Tap Tapply's book circa 1951-1964 Tap shot a 20 gauge M21 for many years- here are his words on this subject and I agree with Tap 100%, on page 270 'The next time you see a gunner about to close the action of his double-barreled shotgun, notice how he does it. If he slams it together as if he were banging a gate shut, he either doesn't know how to handle firearms, or doesn't have much respect for a fine mechanism. But if he holds the piece by the forend and lifts the stock up to it, mark him down as a man who knows what he's doing-and why he's doing it'. Safe gun handling is paramount- best gunning compliment I have ever received had nothing to do with my % for the day- Hunting in MD. back in 1995, when one of my sisters was married to a retired USAF Master Sgt.=-we were both using pumps, and when the Game Officer stopped us for a routine check- I 'racked out' the three rounds in my M12- left the slide back to the rear, inserted my index finger into both the breech and magazine to 'feel nothing but air there' and handed it to him butt first, with the muzzle pointing at the ground- He told me in all his years of checking hunters and their guns, he had never seen a better example of safe gun handling and good manners afield. How we close-or open our guns is important somewhat- but the linchpin here should be GUN SAFETY always.!!

Personally I think the lockup on every gun is different as regards tightness and the amount of effort required for the toplever and underbolts to engage to the proper position.The right method for one gun may not be the best for another.If an action is new or recently tightened and all parts a snug fit,(in some cases too snug ), it may require the action to be "snapped" closed without holding the toplever, until such time as the action has seated in and does not require the same momentum.On handling a gun for the first time I always assume that it does not need to be snapped shut and will hold the toplever over and push into place in order to assess the tightness of the action.Most guns once they have had some use and the bolting has seated in, do not require being snapped shut and I see no reason to submit a gun to the unnecessary wear and strain. JMHO.... Terry

Lockikng bolts on many break open guns are tapered to give compensation for wear (All are not). Selecting the amount of taper is always a compromise. With a steep taper there is the posibility of pressure upon the bolt being greater than it's friction causing it to "Squirt Back" giving a "Self Opening" gun upon firing. With a shallow taper there is the very real posibility of the bolt "Sticking" & requiring excessive force on the top lever to disengage it. Winchester chose (I was not in on their decision thus have no idea as to their reasonings) the shallow angle route & used the screw in the bottom of notch to deal with sticking prevention. Parker Bros on the other hand chose to go the Steep angle route & dealt with the posibility of bolt "Squirting Back" by using a little paralell side rail with minimal clearence on either side of the wedge bolt. In the event the bolt did try to slide back from pressure applied by the lift of the bbls these side rails having no caming action, their friction would stop further motion of the bolt, preventing the gun from "Blowing open".
Some other makers tried to hit a compromise taper which was shallow enough to prevent the gun opening yet steep enough to prevent a serious sticking problem. Generally they were reasonably successfull.
This all has little to do with the actual method of closing the gun & doesn't require a rocket scientist to understand, just enough common sense to figure the "Dangle of the Angle".
While at opposite ends of the spectrum, both the Winchester & Parker methods proved to be successful, proving I suppose, there really is "More than one way to Skin a Cat".

"Most likely"? I don't play the odds when it comes to gun safety - a loaded gun can discharge any time, anywhere. And when dogs are moving out in front, sweeping a set of loaded tubes up from pointing at the ground is an unnecessary risk. You don't need elaborate choreography to close a gun, just a bit of common sense.

The act of lifting the barrels to the frame requires sweeping the barrels on nearly a 45% arc. If you can do that without sweeping something you don't want to shoot surely it is possible to raise a loaded gun safely. Unless of course you are pointing the barrels above the horizon while loading(possible but kind of a trick with a break open gun) and only carry the gun port arms. I really don't find it hard to raise a gun from pointed at the ground to ready without sweeping something I don't want to shoot.

I'm left handed and raising my left hand to close the gun instead of my right doesn't really require elaborate choreography.

I don't have a problem if you close your gun the other way, but there is no way you will convince me my way is more dangerous.

Think about it, ohiosam: lifting barrels to the frame means the gun isn't locked until the muzzles are up. Lifting frame to barrels means your gun is loaded, locked and ready to fire while still pointing at the ground - where dogs can be running in unpredictable ways. That gun is then in battery throughout the entire arc from down to shooting position.

While you bring the barrels up to the action, both hands are in gunning position where you have maximum control at all times. If you lift the butt to the barrels, you have to change hand position while holding a loaded, locked gun. Which is safer?

Of course, you have a right to handle and load your gun any way you want - but I won't hunt my dog with anyone who makes a habit of pointing a loaded gun at the ground.

Terry,

Yeah, I can stand behind that.

I ride the lever over when im not closing on ammo. Just screwing around, why work the bolt any more than nec.? But when im going to shoot I want that engagement maxed out and will not ride the lever back.

BTW - as a state-certified firearm safety instructor, I first noticed students using the 'muzzle toward the ground' carry after Desert Storm, when returning vets, trained on military weaponry, brought the practice with them.

That carry works with a pistol-gripped assault weapon - especially when your next target is likely to be on the ground ahead of you. But in the civilian hunting field it is dangerous, especially around gun dogs, and it took some re-education to get those muzzles up in the air where they belong!

We've beat this to death several times before, likely changing no one's mind. The Browning owner's manuals both for the Superposed and the BSS say to close the action, allowing the bolt to snap into place. They specifically add that the lever should not be retarded or held up in any way. Beretta says the same thing, as I recall. I watched the head smith at Purdey's close a 130 year old SxS, out of the company collection, by snapping it closed. No thumb on the lever. NOBODY SAID SLAMMING!

Jim Legg is absolutely right. Here's a direct quote from the Browning BSS owner's manual:

"Upon closing your gun, let the top lever snap into position - do not retard its action with your thumb."

Now, what part of that do you lever-riders not understand?

What's one of the first things you are told about revolver maintenance? Perhaps to NEVER pry the side plate off of a revolver but to tap on the other side until it comes loose.
Smith & Wesson had an onsite clinic at the Scottsdale Gun Club and brought in two factory gunsmiths. I brought in a Model 28 that needed attention and the gunsmith proceeded to pry the sideplate off. When queried he stated that "while tapping works it takes way too much time". However he did NOT slam the cylinder shut upon re-assembly.
I'm posting this to illustrate that what a concern may state and what they do in actual practice are sometimes not one and the same.
Jim

Jack,
It has nothing to do with "pistol gripped assult weapons" in that case. With a rifle an accidental discharge with the rifle muzzle in an elevated position the bullet could travel for miles! I know of ranges where if they catch you closing the bolt on a rifle with the muzzle elevated you MIGHT get ONE warning then you will be asked to leave.

I was taught you had to be extra careful carrying a gun muzzle up because if you stumble or fall it's hard to control the muzzle.

BTW I am a certified 4-H rifle instructor, the training I received from 4-H made me eligible to be an NRA certified instructor.


Sam

What do they do if they catch you closing the bolt on a rifle with the muzzle pointed at the ground? At safe ranges, we close the bolt with the muzzle pointed downrange, not at our feet!

But we're talking about a loaded shotgun pointed toward the ground; it is a hazard to gun dogs as well as to hunters. A loaded shotgun pointed upward is a hazard only to birds.

If you are teaching your 4-H students to carry a loaded shotgun muzzle down in the field, I think you are dangerously mistaken.

I have never advocated pointing a gun at feet or anything else that is unsafe. You said "get those muzzles up in the air where they belong!"
And I have never heard a warning about pointing a gun at the ground at any range of any type, shotgun, rifle, indoor or outdoor.



You were the one that brought up rifles.



Unless you happen to trip and fall and then where is the muzzle pointed?



Well actually I'm the rifle instructor but the shotgun instructors feel the same way I do. There are time when muzzle up is the safest and times muzzle down is the safest. But neither method is best all the time.

I get the sideplate off a Smith by tapping on the grip frame; I get the sideplate off a Dan Wesson by removing the screws and lifting it off. I close my double shotguns [with the exception of the Charlin] by allowing spring assist to shoot the bolt. [I] "don't pull on Superman's cape. Don't spit in the wind. Don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger and don't mess around with Jim."

jack

Yeah= too bad the 'Jim' of that great song, Jim Croce is no longer with us-love his earthy stuff-he also did a bluesy-jazz song entitled "New York Is Not My Home"- a great song indeed!

On that we agree, RF.

I assume these people don't hunt with dogs. Hunting muzzle down with a loaded gun when dogs are out in front is stupid and dangerous. I shudder to think that any gun safety instructors could teach irresponsible cr@p like that to young hunters.

Any moron who hunted muzzle down when my dog was quartering in front of him would get a quick and unforgettable lesson about gun safety!

Quote:
"I get the sideplate off a Smith by tapping on the grip frame"

That's the way I've always done it too. However; I watched the S&W factory gunsmiths lever the sideplate off multiple revolvers including mine while I was sitting there watching them. Again; when I asked why they told me "Tapping takes too much time".
The whole point of this thread at least to me is what constitutes unecessary "abuse" to a firearm and takes me back to my original reason why I try to treat my older classics somewhat gently. Most are 75 to 100 years old with steel of varying quality and spare parts are difficult to obtain. Why then subject them to unecessary stress?
Ya wouldn't toss your grannie into the ring to take on Hulk Hogan would ya?
Jim

That's what your've doing when you ride the lever.

jOe:
Hopefully we can agree to disagree here. What you've stated above goes against what I believe is correct from a metalurigical perspective. I hope your own guns survive and you can continue to use them for many years to come.
Jim

I'm all ears....convince me from a "metalurigical perspective".

All either do or have. I have never advocated pointing a gun at a dog. You must hunt with a pack of dogs if it isn't possible to raise your gun without sweeping a dog. BTW Try hunting rabbits with beagles, it's not hard to learn not to shoot the dogs.

You have never answered the question where is the muzzle pointed if you stumble or fall. This spring my son and I were turkey hunting, walking in before dawn with the guns unloaded and I was carrying mine muzzle up, trying to quietly pick my way through the woods. I stepped on a limb covered with wet leaves and landed flat on my back with the gun pointed right at my son.

BTW I've been through Ohio's hunter safety course 4 times, once for myself and 3 times with my kids. They never discouraged muzzle down carry. I've read untold numbers of gun/hunting books and don't remember any taking a hard stand against muzzle down carry. I googled the subject and only found one place (a pay to shoot place) that required muzzle up carry. To be honest of all the hunters I hunted with (probably well over 100)I've never met anyone with your opinion.

For myself, when hunting with my dogs, the gun is broken across my shoulder and only gets shut when the dogs are on point. If a bird flys up, so be it. I would be very unhappy to hunt with someone with a loaded shotgun pointing down. Double guns are safest of all guns. Keep them broke untill needed.

Way back on p. 2, Dick mentions that he reassessed his method by noting the position of the toplever when "eased" vs. the position when snapped. I'd bet those of us who have done the same have noticed that the lever is further to the right when eased. As the boltbone is connected to the cambone is connected to the spindlebone etc., that can only mean that the bolt isn't seated as deep in the lug. With a protruding Greener xbolt, you can directly observe the difference in seating. In a later post, mention in made of "pushing" the lever to final position. That adds another ingredient to the procedural soup. The one gun I have seen which absolutely required the manual assist after being "snapped" was a Stoeger Condor 20 ga. used frequently for skeet in my presence. I don't think anyone will argue that the escopeta from Ipanima is anything but a utility grade gun. Lot of fit/frictional interference there somewhere and it shows. Maybe some very slick examples of better heritage and execution will "ease" just as deep as they'll "snap". I think if you have to push the lever left, closing the gun with the lever may be creating more frictional wear than simply closing the gun [completely] with the "snap" ensuring that the bolt goes home unimpeded. Big difference between inserting a wedge and driving a wedge; the difference could be frictional wear and tear.

jack

I think closing the action works just fine either way. As for the barrels up or down argument, I don't think that matters either so long as you have control of where the gun is pointed at all times you are always aware of what's in front of the barrels...Geo

http://www.hunter-ed.com/in/course/ch6_safely_carrying_firearms.htm

Note that the two muzzle-down carry positions are the least safe. 'Ready carry' cites the safety advantage of muzzle up.

We seem to be discussing, or confusing, two different procedures here.One is the loading position and the other is the carry position.I have no problem with carrying the gun in a muzzle up position but I haven't figured out yet how you keep the cartridges in the chambers if you try to load with the muzzles pointing up,and I ain't going to be hunting anywhere near anyone who has his action close with the barrels in a horizontal position, regardless of whether or not he thinks they are pointing in a safe direction...

I just hope Osama O'Bama doesn't read this thread...it could change his position on gun control.

it's almost changed mine.

Terry - the topic began with lever-thumbing (pro and con) and evolved into loading and then to carry - because they are a continuum.

No one advocates loading with muzzles up - barrels are always down when you load cartridges. The issue is whether the loaded gun should be closed and ready to fire while the barrels are pointed down at the ground (caused by lifting the butt to the barrels), or up (caused by lifting the barrels to the action).

The "lift your butt" rule may have originated with Old Etonians, harking back to a British public school tradition.

I was intrigued by this post as I have been hearing alternating opinions for years so I phoned up a friend who is a top shot AND was a managing director at Holland and Holland for a while and is very much engaged in the business now. He said "I always close my gun by bringing the stock up to the barrels (the other way round if I am in a real hurry...) and the top lever closes of its own accord- I don't hold it open and then push it closed. I honestly don't think it makes that much difference."

Funnily enough I was always in the other school who held it open, I guess I might try the other way now as long as it is not slammed shut

So many words about the simplist thing we gunners do.

If I'm handling someone else's gun, I'll do as the owner requests or not handle it.

But seriously, the method is way down the list of effect on the gun from other things such as cleaning and lube frequency, as long as it isn't bashed around.

I suspect, but don't know for sure, that the greatest wear on the bolt and lug occurs when the gun is opened--not closed. Seems to me that as the bolt is retracted the barrel weight is putting upward pressure on the lug and the retracting bolt rubs the bolt the entire length. This would seem to create maximum friction on the wear surfaces. When shooting clays with a vintage gun I try to keep the barrels pressed against the action till I've completely retracted the bolt. Of course I never even think of this stuff when hunting. Does it make any difference? I don't know but it makes me feel I'm doing something to preserve the gun....that's enough.

In support of Joe Wood's view, have noname Brit boxlock which is "hard" opening in that the lever on the spindle will not completley retract the Greener topbolt from the extension unless opposing pressure is placed on wrist and forend (holding the gun firmly closed). Doing so reduces friction just enuf to allow the worn lever-end to accomplish its job.

jack

I guess we fight over things like this because we need to memorize and practice and comprehend all of these small but extremely significant gestures and actions. For all it takes is a slight squeeze of an index finger and you can change someone's life forever.

I've followed the snap-it-shut-firmly line, to avoid dynamic hammering from a partial lockup. Someone at the gun club told my son off for closing our Beretta too hard, though, and I listened to his point.

Later, however, I saw this guy waving my late father's SLE AyA back and forth with the fore end off, checking for wear. What a ... liberty, as Catherine Tate would say. Surely this borders on unnecessary abuse, too. The gun was not for sale and any wear was none of his business.

Paul,
There's always someone out there willing to come over and give you their opinion, regardless of whether you want it. The gun ranges seem to have their share, shotgun ranges less than pistol ranges though.

I've noted that for some reason the boldest of these characters is often older believes giving his opinion to a younger person is his god given right, regardless if he knows them or knows the younger person's depth of knowledge. Their presumption must be that since they're older, they must know more than someone younger. It's often laughable, but sometimes maddening, and always irritating. I've had more than one come up and pick up one of my nicer guns and start messing with it without asking or knowing me. I've been on the recieving end of this a number of times.

Chuck-agree 100% Nash Buckingham carried his doubles that way- broken open until ready to shoot- and at least His Becker(s)came w/o a safety- ditto a few older Live Pigeon doubles I have seen, and almost every single trap too- Only safety on a gun you can EVER trust is the one up between your ears- anything mechanical is subject to the "Murphy's Laws" theory- and when a sear slips and a gun mis-fires-it ain't never a good day!! RWTF

And in the spirit brotherhood amongst fellow gunners, maybe we can find something else amigo- one of my sisters lives in Dover-just outside the big AFB complex- was out there 4 years ago building a handicapped accessible ramp for her house/office complex- she is a CPA and State Code requires that for entrance/egress- great seafood-went to the Dover Racetrack (no more ponies)but compared to where I live in rural Midwest (on a river and adjacent to a private lake with great waterfowling in my backyard) too crowded for a long term stay for this "Ol long haired country boy I guess" I like snything Old Jim C ever wrote or sang-great stuff-major talent!!

We have an unwritten rule- you never ever pick up a stranger's gun from the rack- whether on the clays side-or over on the rifle and pistol range- w/o first asking permission-and getting it- and you could hand me your pre-64 M70 (my first love in rifles) with the bolt closed and the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and tell me "Fox, it's unloaded" and- I will open the bolt and check for myself-and that means my "pinky" finger goes into the chamber and it had best feel "air"-I've seen cases on the rifle range where a round was missed by the extractor- even on the Mauser style bolts such as the older M70-also a round can stick in the magazine tube of a pump or semi-autoloader-gun safety means "Never Ever take anything for granted" and courtesy towards the other fellow (or group) and the dogs- We hunt fezzants on a nice preserve and the lady who owns the place also handles the dogs- unless you have your own-she is a friend-wears more blaze orange than you see in a Cabela's- ditto the collar and safety vest for her Setter- in the 10 years she has run this preserve she has had two dogs shot by the "Dick Cheney" school of gunners- one died- the other never could hunt again-and it goes w/o saying that the trigger happy idiots who caused that trauma to God's best gift to man- were banned forever from that place.

RWTF,
That "unwritten rule" was or should have been the teachings of parents to every kid...'don't mess with other people's property'.

Written in stone for me as a lad- Grandfather prized his machinist's and carpenter's tools- as I do still today- and the rule in the shop was- you never go into another man's tool chest-and he taught me that being a thief was despicable-and the worse kind of a thief was a man who would steal another's tools- and deprive him of earning a living and providing for his family-sounds like you and I had the same kind of "upbringing"- firm-but fair. As far as lifting another man's rifle or shotgun from the gun rack w/o asking permission, even if you have seen others do it- also "Verbotten" in my view- and I left one Gun Club because a obviously ignorant man with his teen-age son were "sighting in" a M-1 carbine- it had a 15 round magazine inserted- the lad fired twice at the 50 yard range- then the weapon jammed- and he turned around with the bolt home, his finger still inside the trigger guard- pointing the muzzle at his dad's bellybutton and said" What's wrong with this gun"? The last time I "hit the dirt" that fast and hard was ATR at Bragg years ago-and the strange thing was- his Dad couldn't see anything wrong- "After all-it can't fire, it's jammed!" Holy Jumpin' Jehosaphat- keep me 1000 miles away from that form of "simplfied suicide"- son-in-law and I were in a Cabela's- gun library-he's a Southpaw (and one great guy) and we were looking at LH Bolt Rifles for deer hunting-(ended up with a Rem 700 in .270Win) and another "customer" picked out a used Marlin lever-pointed it towards us and racked the action-I grabbed the muzzle and lifted it towards the ceiling-told him that just because it was in the store-don't assume it's unloaded-now they have the trigger locks on all the racked guns I understand-sort of an inconvenience to the knowlegable safe gun handlers extant-but that's the price we pay today for what we called in the Service "The 10 Percent Factor"- Thanks for your kind comments- I'd be glad to shoot SC or share a duck blind with you anywhere-anytime (hopefully while Cheney is back in D of C however--RWTF

I have two dbls, one a J P Clabrough (British), the other a J P Sauer (German). Both of these guns are back action sidelocks & have dbl underbolts & a Doll's Head & are over 100 yrs old. The point of these, though is that neither have wear compensating bolts. The bolt notches & the bolts themselves are simply cut on a horizontal plane, paralell with the bbls. Both are on face & lock tight with the top lever centered. The top lever centers whether bbls are on or off & would appear it always did, was made to do so.
"Do You Reckon" that building in wear compensation "Causes" increased wear??
Should this gun have the top lever held back or snapped??
I say snapped because there is no lever latch, the lever returning to center as bbls open. The bolt is cammed back by the rear curve on the forward lug. As the bbls seat firmly against the frame the bolt clears the lug & snaps into the notch with virtually no contact (Friction). If one tried to hold the lever over & ease it down they would also undoubtably relax their hold on the bbls & their weight would put upward pressure on the lug causing friction on the bolt all the way down.
Smoke that one over you lever riders!!

History sure is great- I saw the Holland & Holland videos with a proper British instructor- Ken something- knickers, vest, Peel shoes- the whole magilla- he shot a sidelock and then on SC an American Ruger O/U- and he always had the muzzles pointed down and lifted the up the buttstock/receiver group to close either shotgun. The Brits may drink their beer warm, are lacking a Delta Dental plan in their Socialized Medicare and call their erasers Rubbers- but they developed and practice excellent gunning manners-!!

Or even a "metallurgical" point of view-but let's be specific here Joseph-air hardening, water hardening or oil hardening- pick one and let's "chat about it" Whatsay??

Could I add my 5Cents please?
I think you should never handle anyone's gun without their permission.The owner should hand it to you butt first and open or breech bolt back if a semi.Thereby you can see for yourself it is empty of shells.
'English' 'style' was always muzzles pointed to the ground and lift the butt up to close.This has been modified nowadays in some circles to the following;- Hold the stock by the wrist with the stock against your hip, muzzles pointing to the ground at an angle across your body/legs then using the leverage afforded by the barrel length lift the barrels up toward the action.This has been promoted to assist ladies and children to enable them to close a loaded gun safely in controlled conditions.Hope this helps.
I personally hold the top lever across whilst closing my gun initially, allowing the bolt to bite home freely that last micro -second.
Muzzle awareness is my greatest concern, I do not like to see barrels arcing around me or my friends in an uncontrolled, cavalier manner.