Here is Mile High Trap Range in Erie, Co. several years ago. And from the same spot today.
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It's all about the money, my man.

You elected officials took one look at that crummy trap range, took one listen to the developer who told them about the tax base he would create for them, and the trap range was history.

Developers and elected officials = criminals in suits.

Are the homeowners aware of the lead-poisoned soil on which they are now living?

Ther was a MAJOR clean up of the area prior to any construction of infastructure. Much top soil was removed and screened, hauled away and replaced. So...The entitled yuppies that bought those big homes, wont die of lead poisioning. This was once a really neat area, We used to shoot geese, right behind the Range area....One of the best moto Cross tracks in the country was a mile down the road...

I don't have pictures, but I have personally seen three nice ranges sacrificed to the developers in the Dallas area.

As far as I know, we are down to two public facilities and one private club, as urban sprawl takes its toll.

I don't play golf, but some golf courses have lost out also, as their property became too expensive to leave green.

When we are all concrete and asphalt, we have lost our connection with nature.

HHH

Solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

And may I add "Non Illigitimus Carborundum"! My Granddad used to tell me: "Son, if you set out to be a crook and find out you don't have the "moxie" for that, there's only two things left in life for you- sell real estate or get into politics"!!

You forgot- become a lawyer- Run With The Fox.

At a time when regions of America are being devastated by the new economy and rising energy prices, millions losing their jobs, hundreds of thousands at risk of losing their homes, that housing development looks good to me. Wide, open spaces for trap ranges are plentiful. Homes mean families, jobs; ranges mean fun and games to me.

From comments on our board, it seems to me that many members are living in a time-warp, a cocoon i.e. $5,900 guns and anxiety over the cost of shot while 10,000,000 cars are forecast to be forced from the road within a year and desperate times looming for legions of families without jobs, health insurance, transport to work and school.

I don't think Americans generally have grasped the extent of their country's decline---hopefully of limited duration. Russia's foreign exchange reserve, built on petro dollars, is now the world's third-highest after China and Japan. Canadians, a tenth of America's population with world's ninth-largest economy, are wealthier than Americans by a full 30 per cent of median family net worth and about half US personal debt but feeling the recession because US is our biggest customer.

No, those homes of the young, upward-climbing professionals and craftspersons, contributing their energy, imagination and entrepreneurial skills to make the United States the glorious country it is, are a preferable landscape to me than the barren lands of trap ranges. They can be made in an afternoon or, with a small dozer, over a holiday weekend.

Members of this board, by and large, are a privileged minority. I'm certainly one of them.

King, we're only trying to amuse ourselves as we await the inevitable. There's certainly nothing we can do to stop it so let's have all the fun we can until doomsday . . . you know, "party 'til ya drop!"

I fully grasp our country's decline.

Developments such as the one above are a good example. People living like rats inside apartments (like they do in Europe, for example) named after the woods they wiped out. I'm not sure what you think you're looking at King, but those are not nice digs. There's no glory in any of that 'apartment on a gold course' crap. It's sterile, confining, and speaks of a life of uselessness. I'd rather see a trap range or better yet a factory built.

Yes Jimmie I did omit that-and you are right- it's just that politicians and "developers" can rape the land and the "salt of the earth farmers" and get away with it-but lawyers often have a bounty on their heads- what did The Bard of Avon say in "King Lear"- something like- "first thing we do, first thing tonight, it kill all the lawyers, all that are in sight"- wise man that Shakespeare lad-!!

I can't quite make out the Latin phrases that you two are speaking but I believe you are saying- "A bird in the hand, is worth a push in the bush." Am I correct to assume this?..............Denny Crane

They pave paridise, put up a parking lot....don't know what you got till it's gone... jj

I wasn't going to get back in on this one, but can't help myself.

Having grown up in Texas some 60+ years ago, and having seen a very nice state to live in made largely unlivable, I am greatly saddened. Development is rampant, with only token or no consideration for quality of life. The most $$ obtainable from the property is the top consideration. As was mentioned, we are becoming nothing more than rats on a treadmill. Cities grow together into metroplexes, gobbling up all the rural and pastoral land.

I am personally trying to preserve a few acres in East Texas for the critters and my sons and friends and others to enjoy, but the taxing authorities are making it very difficult to do so. They raised my valuation on completely rural land by 75% this year. I live in fear of what they will do next year.

The Good Lord put us here to be stewards of this earth, not to destroy it. We are not doing a very good job.

Happy trails,

HHH

I couldn't determine the quality of housing from the distance the photo was taken from, Greg, but it looked like green landscaping with no monstrous high-rises to me. As for the people living there in apartments "like rats," that's the future as housing becomes in-and-up to acommodate residents fleeing the suburbs. Half the world lives happily in apartments; it's all that millions have ever known, an improvement over what they had. Those of us who live in single-family homes in bucolic neighbourhoods are a minority. And we all know It's not the space but the ancient and powerful force of family that makes a home.

The local shooting range here in Kenmore WA is now surrounded by developments. I can't see it lasting another generation. The club has put up a stalwart effort to preserve it and have even tried to have it declared a wildlife area. I'm in the real estate business, developing under utilized in-city properties. We must have greater density within city limits if we are going to curb sprawl. Suburban developments wouldn't continue if there was no demand. Furthermore, as long as there is increasing population (largely from illegal immigration) and the money to pay for the expensive suburban houses, the politicians will find ways around the growth managment laws that are in place. Funny how a guy can have a heck of a time getting permisson to sub-divide his 10acre parcel but Weyerhauser has no problem getting permits to clear-cut the forest and build a 200 home golf course development.

A guy I work with, his family owned a tract of land about 10 acres. It was very hilly and rocky, so you really couldn't build on it or plant on it but they had always had it and used it for family picnics, reunions, etc.

Then they built I35, and it happened to front right on their land. Every year their taxes got raised - after all it's highway frontage. It got to the point where the government said it was worth over $2 Million. they could no longer pay the taxes, and no one in their right mind would actually buy it because it was so heavily taxed. So, they had to turn it over to the government. It still sits there today, 15 years later, nothing has been done with it but the only difference is the just don't own it any more and can't go on it.

All brought to you by that 'push in the bush'.

I live in an area of declining population. You can't believe how many new homes have been built in this area in the last 10 years. People are abandoning the cities and moving to the country.

Uh! King? Those ARE the suburbs. We owned a home less than 10 miles from where those pictures were taken. Sold it 2 years ago when Diane retired. Those developments are a negative contributor to the local economy (FACT) Many of them were purchased at subprime and are now in foreclosure, by people who couldnt afford them in the first place. The condos/apartments pretty much stood empty until the "free rent for 6 months" etc signs went up and the people whose homes were being foreclosed moved into them. Water alone to support the golf courses, waterfalls and sprinkler systems is a tragedy. The State of Colorado shut down, ag irrigation over eastern Colorado several years ago, to "support front range infrastructure". The tax base cant support them, IE taxes are not being paid on foreclosed properties. As far as people on this board bring a priveleged class, I dont think so. Even in the elite group I shoot with, few of us buy $5900 shotguns, or lay awake at night worrying about shot prices. Most of us worry about paying our fuel bill since farm diesel went over 4 bucks, water, getting the wheat cut, paying the fuel bill and water. Declining school enrollment increased taxes, paying the fuel bill and water. This year, grasshoppers, cutworms, paying the fuel bill and water.If you think that living in an apartment is an improvement over what you had, maybe you ought to get out more. I doubt that any of us live "in a time warp" as you suggested. If there is alot of discussion about gun and shot prices, this IS a board about guns and shooting. Oh yes, lest I be accused of being sensitive about Canadian criticism, I was born in Canada........

I like the way the planners of these huge developements name them. Such as Quail Ridge or Pheasant Run. You know, the last species of game they plowed under to build over. This one comes complete with steel silhouettes of buffalo grazing in the meadow.

Bottom line is there is too many people that will avoid what is good and right and sell out their mother in order to better their pocket books. I think the word that I am looking for is GREED. But I think that greed has sculpted our country in a positive way also at times, but definatly not here. The whole subprime fiesco is/was a greed driven gig. Greed is a double edged sword, but the negative side is letting alot of blood in this paticular case...And other than the poor economy I can not see it changing in the near future. Unless, the cost of fuel increases to the point where people do not want to spraw out anymore might slow it down. But then it is happening for the wrong reasons.

In the words of Pogo, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

What I really like is how they come up with names for their subdivisions that have nothing to do with anything. For example, here in Houston you'll see places with names like Canyon Ranch or Katy Lakes....when there has never been a canyon or lake within a few hundred miles.

There was a time when it mattered how people made their money. People like engineers or machinists could hold their head high. People who made their money the easy way were looked down on. Not any more....

In the future our kids will all live in apartments, eat at Chili's, work for the Chinese, speak Spanish, and spend their workdays pining for beer and football games on their plasma TV.
One day, someone will stumble across a hammer and there will be a huge Prime Time Live investigation as to what it is and how to hold it.

Tim- was that a Judy Collins song -Big Yellow Taxi- or Joni Mitchell?

Ah James- my "Buckeye" compadre- "A bird in the hand- is usually messy"- One advantage of a Catholic school education was the old Latin we had to learn- so I'll translate- Non Illigitimus Carborundum means "Don't Let The Bastards Grind You Down"__

Run, either Joni Mitchell or Janice Joplin??? Can't remember. I think Mitchell might be correct though. She seems to be the common denomorator.

You can stop right there. That pretty much sums it up. All the rest is consequences of that.

Most outdoorsmen have always counted on someone else to provide the playing field(farmer Brown?). Maybe just buy your own land, and shoot when and how you want.

It's shocking that people live in such match boxes. When spell of really bad weather comes through such boxy community only "pile of shit" will be left. Personally I much prefer ole' brick with Metowee Valley slate roof.

That sounds too expensive. Better to blame the "yuppie". That's what they do in the ghetto when some of us build nice modern housing. I'm no fan of suburban sprawl (for lack of both culture and nature) but respect people's right to live as they choose. I have my city home and my country home. In both circumstances I believe I have improved on what was left before me. I think it would be good for some to remember that there was a time before their homesteads and that some people believe that time was "better". They may be correct, but without us, how would we all enjoy it?

I wish they would let me do just that. Those migrating birds, both Dove and Duck alike, have no right to trespass on my land and eat my grain. The doves invade my trees, nest in them, raise their brood and show them how to steal my grain. Even the fish seem to swim in my part of the river without regard for my property rights. It is high time that I be allowed to hunt and fish on my land, as I see fit, to defend my rights. I will try shooting 50 ducks a day to see if they get the message. Might have to shoot all of the Doves, they breed so fast. Even the Rock fish will have to be thinned out. I like your way of thinking.

With rapidly escalating fuel costs for heating, transportation, and airconditioning, rising interest rates, and limited credit availabilty all likely to last for the foreseeable future, the population boom of McMansions and runaway subarban sprawl is over. In a very short time, we will be longing for the good days of 4$ per gallon and 6% 30 year mortgage rates.

I read a serious discussion recently as to what might be done with the expected widespread vacant and unmarketable outer McMansion developments. Maybe they can be bulldozed and trapfields or other shooting facilities built.

I shoot sporting clays at a range built in an old quarry and factory complex where targets at some stations appear through windows in half fallen walls and at others fly in between tall brick chimneys. A relic of an earlier economy serves a new purpose. With a little imagination, abandoned McMansion developments might lend themselves to something similar.

KY, most landowners have conservation as their first thought.
The locals(the newly landless) count on us to set the pace of good taste, otherwise we'd be just another shot-out public place.
They look up to us - lets be the laird and set the example!
When in doubt, don't pull the trigger - go smell a wildflower.

[quote=I shoot sporting clays at a range built in an old quarry and factory complex where targets at some stations appear through windows in half fallen walls and at others fly in between tall brick chimneys. [/quote]

Just shot there with Yeti a Sunday or two ago. Great place!

It's offensive to me when members refer to those living in apartments" like rats" and matchbox houses that turn to "piles of shit" during hard times.

I know housing throughout North America and beyond, as an innovator in urban social housing, and will affirm their residents as good or better than me.

It doesn't surprise me there's such boorish class distinction on a board as large as ours but I believe by naming things we often change things.

"innovator in urban social housing"???Smells like developer to me...No wonder you are in favor of tearing out trap ranges..."Boorish class distinction"??? I dont think so....

Everyone wants a home in the country, just they wish that no others would build next to them. Funny really. I had a person build across from my farm and she started complaining about all the noise, dust and smells from a working farm. Took me to court. She lost, had to pay my lawyer fees. Then she started again. Moved 200 pigs from the rear of the farm, 7/8 mile away to 175 feet from her front door. Hot Summer, hot nights you get the picture. Back to court we went again. She lost again. At that point she got the message and decided to be a good neighbor. Pigs went back to the rear of the farm and I have not heard from her in five plus years.

There are many areas that have been over built and have unsold home in them. Just look around Lost Vegas. In the end homes will be sold, but for more reasonable prices than they sold for in the boom. Always best to buy when the bust has happened and others have no money saved up for the values that you come across.

Some cities have had a rebirth as people buy old buildings and restore them or convert them. Many old building are just in such bad shape that the only thing to do is tear them down and start over. It has to pay to do that. I see this in Baltimore as row house after row house has been abandoned and later torn down. In 20-30 years entire blocks will be free of old homes. Open space is easy to rebuild on and the day will come when someone will see a chance to do so and make money. Only the government is in the business of building homes without a prospect of a profit. Those in the trade have to make a profit of go under.

No. Last Dollar, a group of citizens changed lives of thousands of persons in a Nova Scotia coal-mining and steel-making region by providing an unique home ownership plan. Ownership turns sand into gold. People look after what they own.

It says something for the dozens of realtors and developers in that hard-pressed region that they did not interfere or try to capitalize in any way on a social housing experiment of making homes available at low mortgages to improve.

A former reporter, I now work in social and environmental development, mainly sustainable forestry, currently the greenest, most unique and advanced in the world, registered to the Forest Stewardship Council standard.

As for tearing out trap ranges, I didn't say I favoured it but, looking at the photos, I preferred decent housing to fun and games. People come first. The way our countries are being hollowed out there's lots of room for trap ranges.

What I deplore is those who look down on apartment dwellers or owners of modest houses whose social and financial circumstances may be different from their own. That's not the American or Canadian way. We aren't what we own.

I just read through this thread again, and nowhere did I find a word against the PEOPLE living in apartments or lower income housing. What I deplore, is tearing out usable facilities to build 8-900,000 dollar edifices that to a large degree stand empty, when we have a huge surplus of unsold homes in this country. Many of the "low income" built to minimum spec tracts do turn to **** in a short time. And living in a lot of substandard apartments is like living in a rabbit warren. I resent having people lumped into a category of "boors". When I lived in Halifax, and when we were back there this summer, I really didnt notice the good citizens of good neighborhoods tearing out their open space and recreational facilities to help the underprivileged. I applaud what was done in your mining community. I am sure people were appreciative. We have been doing that kind of thing in the States for a long time, believe it or not. Why even out here "in the middle of no where" we do it locally without public funding as a community share program. It wasnt invented in Nova Scotia.

KY Jon, that's a hilarious story. Kinda like how the idiots around here complain about the small airport - which was here before any of them ever were born.

King,I just don't know where you are coming from. No one is looking down on apartment dwellers. I'll bet those apartments shown cost at least as much per month as the payment on a modest house. As for land being so easy to come across I can tell you that in more and more populated areas it is getting very difficult to find any land free for recreational use. Nova Scotia? A fantasy land. Spend some time in Houston and you'll sing a different song.

Last Dollar and Greg: Read the thread , the references to those living in apartments "like rats" and match-box houses that over time "turn to shit." "It's shocking that people live in such match boxes."

It is boorish---"ill-bred or clumsy" OED---of those who generalize from their lofty perches of aesthetic taste and good fortune about the tens of millions living in apartments and modest housing.

As for Texas, I beat a rabbit path from Houston to Clear Lake for months on end and hunted westward with NASA engineers. All I saw was uninhabited land to the horizon, scrubby to my eyes. People would have made an improvement.

King, I'm surprised you can see the ground from way up there......

I didn't have to rise to read on the thread what you said you couldn't see, Last Dollar. But we should leave it there. I'm sensitive on the subject because of a lifetime of being welcomed in homes of those with less than I have who lived to a true scale of human values.

At table, back porch or parlour, they seemed to say "This is what we' have and you're welcome to our food and friendship." Many times, in many countries, I had more money in my pocket than they would make in a year. Their generosity illuminated my life. They often risked their lives to talk to me.

I'm certain you've had that good fortune, too, and are as grateful for it as I am.

King- my Nova Scotia amigo- I see that you have somehow become, unwillingly, a "new whipping boy" on this thread! There are no "right or wrong" sides to the views you raised (and I share with you in spirit)and friend Tim S. can rest easy- no movie quotes- just this: (1) a 1960's song written by Phil Ochs-"There but for Fortune Go You Or I" (2) a poem- author unknown to me- entitled "Richard Cory" and (3) a parable-again, author unknown- goes like this "One night an older man of means had a dream-in which Jesus told him that He would visit him soon- the man woke up, went to his office, and a ragged panhandler asked him for a handout- the man took him to a nearby diner and bought him a full meal-and went back to his office- days passed, and again at night, in a dream- he saw Jesus and asked Him why He hadn't paid him the visit that was promised- 'Ah, but I did- I was the homeless man you feed the other morning- did you think I might be coming to see you in a cloud of Light. trumpets blowing? I came that way to test you-and you did well'"!

King, that land you saw was owned by people who would no more have a trap range sitting on it than you would have a brothel in your own living room.

You're missing my point - those rats living in apartments are not poor rats, just rats. Those are not low rent apartments, just low quality of life apartments. As for the poor who live in low rent apartments....why is it they always seem to have a beer in hand and a cig hanging from their mouth? Many of the poor I see with my own eyes (not all but many) are poor because they can't handle money, not because they never had it.