Two marks on a recent "new2me" Tobin SxS 12GA prompt two questions.
This firearm is marked TOBIN ARMS (all capital letters - no geograhic location) on both lockplates, serial number is 191XX, and I believe was assembled by G.B. Crandall during the 1920s-30s and retailed from his Woodstock Ontario Canada gun shop.
Under the pull-off forearm both barrels exhibit what I believe is the barrel maker's mark - BTP (all capital letters). The T is taller than the B and P, and the horizontal bar of the T partially over-towers the B and P.
Who is the barrel maker BTP?
The barrel steel on top is marked - DE MOYA FLUID STEEL (all capital letters). Is "Tobin" the only maker who used this brand name of barrel steel, or does this marking show up on other marques?
With thanks in advance for any help.

Only DeMoya barrels I've ever seen were on Tobin guns

De Moya had an address in Liege. He had registered several trade names Acier De Moya, De Moya Fluid Steel & De Moya Fluss Stahl.
Jose De Moya, 297 rue St. Gilles, 1904.
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html

Who else he sold to or how long he was in business in Liege, I do not know. He filed a patent with the US Patent office in which he claims to live in Paris in 1905. The patent was granted in 1907.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=mRJRAAA...1&ct=result
An interesting patent. Where he is producing steel is an interesting question.

Pete

One of the Tobin catalogs or period ads states that the entire production of De Moya steel barrels had been spoken for by the Tobin company.

How much is hype, and how much is fact, I'm not sure of. My 16 gauge Tournament gun has unmarked barrels, as did my first 12, which was serial number 700. A different 12 was marked Krupp.
Best,
Ted

I have a Tobin , Highest catalog grade, that has two sets of De Moya fluid steel barrels. I have not seen the De Moya marks on other guns, but think that Tobin was not capable of using the entire De Moya production.

May we see pictures?

Silver, per your request, here's the Tobin Grade 60 with the two sets of De Moya Fluid steel barrels. The interior parts of the Grade 60 are silver or nickel plated.

Daryl,

Thank you for your pictures. Is Tobin a Belgian or French gun? Are they quality guns?
Serban
PS: sorry I couldn't meet you at the Polson shoot, I had to cancel due to surgery. I did not know if you got my message through the board or not.

Silver, I did not get your message.

The Tobin was made in the first few years of the 1900s in Norwich, Conn., and later in Woodstock , Ontario.

Daryl,
That is a gorgeous gun! I have to admit that Tobin made some fine guns. Thanks for sharing the pic.

Frank Major Tobin was born in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, on January 24, 1862. As a young man he shipped out on a whaler, but the sea did not prove to be a lasting calling. He was drawn to the American west, and there he met and married his wife Anna, who was also born in Canada, in August 1868. Frank and Anna’s first child was born in Nebraska in March 1892. The next two children were born in Illinois. By 1897 Frank was in Norwich, Connecticut, working as a sales agent for W.H. Davenport Firearms Company. By 1901 he had a similar position with Hopkins & Allen Arms Company. Somehow when he was on the road for these Norwich companies he acquired the rights to Patent No. 498,043 for a breech Loading Firearm, granted May 23, 1893, to C.M. Wollam of San Francisco, California. The Tobin Arms Manufacturing Company of Norwich, Connecticut was incorporated in 1903 with F.M. Tobin as president, A.L. Potter as vice-president, and B.H. Palmer as secretary-treasurer. The company purchased a site formerly occupied by a grist mill, which was rebuilt and new buildings added, and commenced production of a hammerless double barrel shotgun based on Wollam’s patent. All the Tobin guns I’ve examined carry the stamp on the watertable “Pat’d May 23-93 and Patents Pending.” The gun was marketed as the Tobin Simplex Gun. The first guns were shipped in September 1904. The Tobin Simplex Gun was produced in a variety of grades from $30 to $200, and with options of either automatic ejectors or a single-selective trigger for $20, or both for $40. On the highest grade internal parts were gold plated and ejectors or the single-selective trigger were each $25 extra. The high price of the Tobin ejector is the reason I believe so few are seen today. At the same time ejectors were $5 extra on a Remington. The lower grade guns used Trojan Nitro Steel barrels, the middle grades Fluid Steel Krupp Essen barrels, and the highest grades offered the choice of Fluid Steel Krupp Essen or DeMoya Fluid Steel. Production of guns in 12- and 16-gauge continued in Norwich into 1909, and the generally accepted figure is that 11,089 hammerless doubles were produced in Norwich.

Tobin Arms Manufacturing Company, Limited, was incorporated on August 9, 1909, with its principle place of business stated as Woodstock, Ontario, Canada. Again the company produced a line of Tobin Simplex Guns in 12- and 16-gauge and a variety of grades from $25 to $250. In addition a hammer double using the same frame and bolting as the hammerless was added to the line at $20, and a simple .22 caliber single shot Boy Scout Rifle was added to the line of shotguns at $5. Advertising by Tobin Arms Manufacturing Company, Ltd. continued into 1916, but by then at least part of the factory had been taken over by the Arnold Thompson Tool Company. The generally accepted serial number range for hammerless doubles was 11,090 to 18,395. Tobin Arms Manufacturing Company, Ltd. is not listed in the Woodstock City Directories after 1916, and its charter was surrendered to the Provincial Secretary and Registrar on December 19, 1921. Frank Major Tobin lived the rest of his life in Woodstock. For many years he was secretary of the Canadian Stove Manufacturers Association. He was also involved in the marketing of a collapsible boat and early experiments with milk cartons. Frank died October 10, 1939.

A local gunsmith who had worked for the company, Gladstone Blake Crandall, bought the remains of Tobin Arms, and for many years billed himself as “Manufacturer of Tobin Guns (Successor to Tobin Arms Co.).” Crandall is believed to have assembled 551 Tobin Guns from parts, some as late as 1951. Crandall serial numbers reportedly range from 18,976 to 19,526. Some of these guns are quite good and others leave a lot to be desired. Some of the last were fitted with coil springs mounted on a cocking rod instead of the floating V-spring, the main feature of Wollam’s design. Crandall is more noted as a riflemaker and is mentioned several times in Charles Landis’ book Twenty-Two Calibre Varmint Rifles. After he retired, great quantities of Tobin parts were hauled to the dump and many a local lad collected enough to assemble a gun, but few ever did. I saw several sizable caches of unfinished Tobin parts when I visited with collectors in the Woodstock area in the fall of 1994. At that time the old factory building was still there at the corner of Drew and Winnett, and it was occupied by a shoe store.

Great information.

Can some one please post a picture of the De Moya stamping on a barrel?

Thanks,

Pete

Pete, check your PMs.

Ian,

Got it, thanks.

Pete

I've only seen and handled one Tobin with DeMoya Steel barrels. It was at Jimmy Austin's beautiful old cherry paneled barn on the stearn and rock-bound coast. He also had a Krupp barrel 16-gauge No. 30 Expert Grade in there that day that I was more interested in. Didn't have the scratch to get both. The DeMoya barrel gun was heavy (bit over 8 pouunds) straight gripped with a single trigger. The sideplates were mostly stippled and one had a flying duck and the other a standing duck. There was quite a bit of rust around the trigger selector and that kind of put me off too. But, a very interesting gun, and unlike anything pictured in any of my Tobin catalogues.

I have one coming in a couple of days if you don't get a peek.

Tim

These are from Ian:













Pete

Gents, thanks for your responses and information.
And thanks to PeteM for putting up my pics.
Still working on the meaning of the suspected barrel maker's logo - BTP, which may be within a circle - the strike was faint and on a curved surface.
It's also possible that all the Tobin barrels from this maker showed this mark, but the marks was struck off when the tubes were finished up in Norwich or Woodstock. I suspect G.B. Crandall assembled this particular shotgun in the 1920-30s, and really did not care if the barrel maker's mark was completely erased or not. Due to the faintness of the logo, it might have been missed. I missed it during my manual inspection and only noticed it when reviewing the pics I took.
Thank you all.