Hi all, for all you English gun experts, I was wondering if you can ID what model this Coggy is?

http://www.hillrodandgun.com/picture.php?id=12477

Is it the Konor or perhaps the Sandhurst?

Infact any info or opinions on this gun and C&H would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again!!

All the best!

Greg

Don't know, but I have a field grade Avant Tout I could be persuaded to part with. In it's original (but beat up) makers case with some owner's name and regimental address on it.

GJW before I'd buy that gun I'd want to see a photo of the seamless sleeving. I love Westley Richard guns but all of their sleeve jobs that I've seen weren't what I'd call seamless.

gjw - the gun looks almost identical to my sideplated Coggie, described in C&H's records as "a type T112 twelve bore side-by-side boxlock...fitted with our company's patented ejector and asisted opening mechanism - the Avant Tout." No model name is given.

My gun was No. 1 of a bespoke matched pair, built in 1906 at C&H's Gillingham Works in London. The nearest illustration in Cooley & Newton's book 'Cogswell & Harrision - Two Centuries of Gunmaking' is of a Sandhurst, but C&H shifted model names from time to time.

My gun is stamped 'sleeved' and 'Hill Rod & Gun' under the barrels - they did a nice job. I would think that Westley Richards would have done at least as well.

Ok guy, here is what I have,
"The 'Avant Tout', hammerless ejector guns first came into production in 1896 - many thousands were sold - their popularity was unbounded- and even today, the company is asked for this well known model. The 'Konor', 'Sandhurst' and 'Rex' were of this series and today are known by their individual names but have been greatly improved".

"The name 'Avant Tout' has become synonymous with Cogswell & Harrison and was first used for a range of self-ejecting hammer guns as early as 1888.
In 1949 the Avant Tout series reappears in the form of the Konor (Avant Tout I), Sandhurst (Avant Tout II) and Rex (Avant Tout III) ejector guns. All are boxlocks, or 'enclosed locks' to quote the catalogue, although the Konor was fitted with ornamental sideplates which were claimed to strengthen the head of the stock and give added surface area for engraving".
Complicated model configurations!!!

Sandhurst and Konor were both sideplated boxlocks, as was Blagdon. The Sandhurst pre-dates the others by many years - the Konor was made in the post-WWII years when some claim that Coggie quality had declined. But there were Coggies made with sideplates from 1900 onward, many without those model names, as well. The C&H model names are not a reliable guide.

Greg, I think that's probably too early a gun for it to be a Konor. I owned a Konor (briefly--you can see it on the Cabela's website I think, not a problem with the gun but rather with the shooter/gun combination!) and they're later guns. Rex and Sandhurst were not sideplated--or, as Coggie would have said, were not fitted with "ornamental strengthening plates". (I love that description!) I'm guessing it's some earlier iteration of the Avant Tout series, as indicated above.

FYI, Coggie did it backwards (as did Scott with their 700 numbering system) when it comes to the Avant Tout models Treblig listed above. The Konor (AT I) is the highest grade; the Rex (AT III) the lowest. Anyone looking for a dandy 20 bore Brit grouse and woodcock gun, Kirby Hoyt has a really nice Rex.

Thanks guys, great responses, I'm learning a lot!!

Please keep them coming!!

All the best!

Greg

I have a gun which looks identical to the Cosmos in Plate 9 of the Cogswell & Harrison book. I thought an Avant Tout had the model name on the rib. Is there a way to tell if it is a Cosmos or an Avant Tout?

Skip

The Sandhurst was sideplated.


'Avant Tout' refers specifically to C&H's patented assisted-opening ejector system, and is also generally applied to the range of Cogswell & Harrison boxlocks using it. The 'Avant Tout' name did not necessarily appear on these guns. The ball-and-shot gun on Plate 9, for example, is both a Cosmos and an Avant Tout.

My 1907 Avant Tout crossover gun is marked "Avant Tout" on the rib.

Jack, thank you. It has Avant Tout features including the assisted opening mechanism. All that is missing is the marking on the rib. That has only the company name and address.

I don't know if I will ever get the letter from C & H that gives all of the record information. Do most people recommend it or is it just eighty-something dollars that could be better spent elsewhere? Via email they gave me the date of manufacture right down to the day of completion, January 21, 1914.

Skip

A friend owns a C&H 16 bore that is exquistite. It looks similar to the gun linked above and is marked "Extra Quality Victor" on the floorplate. He tells me it is circa 1905. Lovely little gun at 5 lbs. 9 oz.

sv

What is a "crossover gun"? As I said, not all Avant Tout guns are so marked - some are, some aren't. Only the actual ejector/assist mechanism is definitive.

The Victor sidelock is at the top of the C&H line - lovely guns!

The closest I can come to is a Blagdon model in the Avant Tout series. The also did a cartridge called the Blagdon, loaded for them by Eley-Kynoch, and I have a box of them in front of me now. Lagopus.....

I acquired a pair of Avant Tout, Sandhurst model 12 bores in a trade this year that look very much like the the gun on the Hill Rod and Gun website. I believe that is probably also a Sandhurst model sideplated boxlock. My guns have Avant Tout on the rib (the name of the assisted opening action used thru a wide range of C&H guns over the years) but not the model name: Sandhurst.

I learned that they were Sandhurst models by purchasing a very thorough certificate of origin from C&H (http://www.cogswell.co.uk/home.htm#). It took about a month to get the letter from C&H.

These dressed up assisted opening boxlocks are nicely engraved and are good shooters but this action is not well thought of in the mother country. The assisted opening works with the most force when the gun is unfired as the spring that runs the assisted opening mechanism also drives the ejectors. Once fired (when you would want the assisted opening) much of the spring energy goes to the push the ejectors rather than opening the gun. Hence they have a bad rep and there are many of them out there. So the Sandhurst model is relatively inexpensive for a fully engraved English boxlock ejector.

Nonetheless, I like my pair very much and am in the process of having JJ Perodeau restore them.

Thanks Dr P, I appreciate all the info, especially on the assisted opening. I want to ask, if the gun is a hard opener after being fired? Also, how does this ejector system compare with the Southgate ejector?

Could you also give me your opinion on the quality and workmanship of the Sandhurst model?

Thanks so very much!!!

All the best!!

Greg

The gun springs open if not fired (fully assisted) and opens easily after being fired (partially assisted). Like the H&H style assisted opening mechanism, the guns are a bit harder TO CLOSE than non-assisted opening guns (but this is supposed to be your loader's problem not the man shooting the gun). I don't ever find them particularly hard to close however.

The Southgate ejector system is generally considered to be superior to Avant Tout ejectors. Someone with more expertise than I should expound on this however.

The workmanship is very good on mine. C&H used more machining than the London best gun houses. They were the economy London gun maker. Nonetheless, the hand finishing and engraving is very good. The Sandhurst is a good value but don't confuse them with the Victor sidelocks.

See:
http://www.cogswell.co.uk/ownedtext.htm#33

Thanks again Dr P!! Sure appreicate all the info. Well dummy me, misspoke, I did mean to ask if the gun closed hard not opened hard! Duh!!

But, again, thanks so much!

All the best!

Greg

Jack Maloney, my 1907 Avant Tout was factory built with a "crossover" stock designed to be shot from the right shoulder with the left eye aligned with the rib. As with other factory built crossover guns of quality, the metal parts were also bent to align with the bend of the stock. These metal parts include the top tang, the bottom tang, the trigger guard, the side plates both left and right. On some guns, the top lever is bent to match the bend of the top tang and the safety slide is machined on a curve, but my Avant Tout has a standard top lever and safety slide. Cogswell and Harrison advertised the availability of the crossover feature in their catalogs, very unusual for a gunmaker to do. My gun is in carefully field used condition with smoothly worn finishes, but is very well preserved because of good care and 100 years of storage in its original labelled trunk case. It is a classic British game gun at well under seven pounds, straight grip, and 30" barrels of moderate choke. The assisted opening feature is quite user friendly and closes very smoothly with little effort beyond the compression of ejectors, a feature included on many guns the we do not usually think of as "assisted opening" like the Parker and Model 21.

It appears that some Coggie models gained (or lost) sideplates at various times. Greg tells me he's seen photos of sideplated Blagdons. I have a photo of a Blagdon from Coggie catalog copy, 60's era, and it's a conventional, non-sideplated boxlock.

Thanks for the description, eightbore! Sounds like a really interesting Coggie - no doubt made in the Gillingham Street Works in London. Have you contacted the modern C&H to get the full history?

I have not requested a letter on my gun. The supposed original owner, W. Sebag Montefiore, should be easy picking on Google, if he is mentioned at all. His name is embossed on the case.

I seem to remember a higher grade true sidelock that they made.
G&H had an earlier version of one with back action locks a while ago. I believe that particular one had been cleaned up &/or restocked by Kirk Merrington.

Looked nice and handled well.

It turns out that the original owner of my gun is not "easy pickings on Google" after all. Two authors of the same surname occupy the first several dozen pages of Google references with no reference to their family tree that I could find. I may have to get a letter on the outside chance that it would include the name that the initial "W" refers to.

C&H was noted for building just about anything anyone was willing to pay for. But I'd sure appreciate it if you'd copy that 1960s photo and post it here, Larry. While C&H played fast and loose with model names, the 'Blagdon' model was sideplated in every catalog and example I've seen, and so was the 'Sandhurst.'

Thanks so much to everyone!! Just a great wealth of information.

You have increased my knowledge base but leaps and bounds!!

Thanks!!

Greg

Jack, you seem to have some knowledge about the C & H guns. Do you consider them a decent value based on price compared to other London guns? Is it because the guns have a fair amount of their manufacture done by machines that the prices seem so low or is it another reason. I wish I knew more about them. I bought the book but have done little more than thumb through most of it. I got my Avant Tout because I was looking for a solid 16 gauge and the price seemed very reasonable.

Skip

Steve V.....I remember seeing an Extra Quality Victor on Atkins G&L site...seems like that was a fine & beautifully engraved quality SLE Gun...don't think it was a plated BL....is your mates a SLE Gun??
franc

Hi, Jack, I second Skips question. I'm thinking very, very hard about getting the gun I posted a link to when I started this thread.

Please let us know.

All the best!!

Greg

As far as I know, all Victors are sidelocks, not sideplates.

Hi all, the below information was provided by Mike Baines from across the pond. I want to thank him for his kind input and ok to post this here for all of us. Here's what he has to say:

The sidelock models were as follows: the Victor which sub divided into the Model de Lux, Pigeon Gun, Non Ejector and Small Bore. Then there was the Primic, The Crown, The Tower, The Huntic and the Moorgrey; the latter being a cheap non ejector model. The boxlocks were as follows: The Desideratum, The General Purpose, The Blagdon Single Trigger (which was side plated), Then the Avant Tout Light model and Rover which were straight boxlocks, the the Avant Tout models with the Longfort patent breech which sub divided into the Konor, the Sandhurst and the Blagdon which were all side plated and the Rex which was a straight boxlock, note here that the Blagdon was also available as a boxlock as well as the side plated model. Other boxlocks were the Markor and Regency; both of which were not side plated and the Ambassador which was also available as a boxlock and a side plated model. It seems as the Blagdon and Ambassador were available in two versions. The Certus was a single barrel. There was also a single barrel gun that was made in Belgium and then given a little further engraving to add to the crude duck on the side which they also sold in their name. I had one but could never find any further information on it.

Larry was correct but that gun was available in two versions. Maybe, if you can get the serial number, only C & H can sort out the riddle. Mike..... p.s. you posted a similar question on another forum. Please feel free to cut and paste this answer if it may interest others. Mike.....

Thanks again Mike!

Greg

No, it is a side plated gun. Larry Brown and his friend, Larry Harwood, have both looked at the gun closely. It is simply spectacular.

sv

Steve: Until someone can prove otherwise, I can't believe there ever was a sideplated Coggie boxlock with the 'Victor' designation. The Victor was always C&H's top of the line, and they made some fine 'London Best' SLEs. No matter how lovely it is, I suspect your friend's sideplated Coggie is another model.

I agree with Jack on this: all Victor guns were true sidelocks and there was a range of model names for the sideplated boxlocks built on the Avant Tout action as described by Mike above.

I believe the "Extra Quality Victor Grade sideplated boxlock" for sale on Safari Outfitters site(http://www.safarioutfittersltd.com/EnglishPage5.htm) is in fact a sideplated boxlock "Tower model" not a Victor gun at all.

Similarly, one of pairs of C&H "SLE's" on Bass Pro Shops site are clearly sideplated boxlocks, not sidelocks as advertised (ihttp://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CFPage?storeId=10151&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&appID=36&viewMode=thumbnails&catID=52&direction=DESC&gunid=3893&mode=viewGun). The other pair on this site looks like SLE's.

The problem is that C&H did not put model names on the boxlock guns except for "Avant Tout" on the rib to denote the action type. And the uninitiated confuse sideplated boxlocks for true sidelocks. Bass Pro shops should know better though!

Sorry to have to muddy the waters a bit more but a number of years ago I owned a C&H 12 BLE that was sideplated and of very high quality. Very similar to the gun illustrated on Safari Outfitters website except it was a game gun with 30" damascus barrels,
spectacular wood and had original nitro proof marks from the 1896-1904 era.It definitely had Extra Quality Victor Grade engraved on the top rib.I have since assumed this term was used for their best quality guns whether SL or BL.Perhaps a phone call to Niles at Safari would help to confirm.
Terry

Jack, you're asking me to do something that's beyond my limited computer/photo skills! The Blagdon to which I refer is shown on p. 114 of "Buxton's Guide to Foreign Firearms", which I expect other folks here also possess. Appears Mike Baines is also aware of non-sideplated Blagdons. This one has a listed price (early 60's) of $75 less than the Konor. The ad copy does say "Same optional features as the 'Konor' are available for this model." I suppose those optional features could include sideplates, although I'm pretty sure they were standard rather than optional on the Konor.

Steve, are you referring to Doug's Coggie? That is indeed a very nice gun, but I'll be darned if I can remember the model. Seems it's a sidelock rather than a sideplated gun, and I do recall that it has a single trigger.

One note of caution: older guns are sometimes 'upgraded' by switching or re-engraving ribs. Unethical, but it does happen - at least, with guns which have been sleeved.

Cogswell & Harrison model names are far from cast in stone - sometimes it seems as if they stuck any name handy on any gun going out the door, regardless of its features. But Mike Baines did a fine job of defining the most likely combinations of names and models - thanks to Mike, and to Greg for posting!

Are you two talking about the guy at the 2006 Flatwater shoot with the smallbore Coggie he bought at Cabelas? If so, that gun was a "KONOR". At the time there were two for sale a different Cabelas, they were almost identical...one was a 20 and the other a 16.

Nope, Harwood had the 20 gauge Konor, and Doug has the 16 gauge Extra Quality Victor.

sv

I think that Terry is correct with his example of a Victor boxlock. Around the turn of the century the Victor could be either a boxlock or a sidelock. Note page 65, plate 7, in the Cogswell and Harrison book. It shows a fine cased Cogswell described as "An Extra Quality Victor 12-bore BLE with ornamental sideplates, Avant Tout ejectors and assisted opening mechanism. No. 27,251, it was completed in May 1901."

Good catch! Thanks, Daryl.

Good info. Thanks for correcting us.

Hi Daryl, I suspect the term may have been used for both sidelocks and boxlocks during that period at the turn of the century, but later used only for sidelocks, as a much higher percentage of what we see do seem to be sidelocks....
I thought I had some pics of the example I had but they seem to have evaporated...

Hi all, I just want to thank each and everyone of you for all the great responses, answers and knowledge you provided on this maker and his guns.

The one thing I love about this forum is you always learn and expand your knowledge on all aspects of the double gun. What I really like is you don't get any smart a** comments when you ask a question or make a comment.

Again, one big thanks!!

All the best!

Greg

Greg, see my earlier post on English gunmakers.
There are still literally hundreds out there waiting to be carressed by enthusiasts like us.

That Konor went from Harwood to Brown (very briefly), then back to Cabela's--not as a result of any problem with the gun. I think it may still be in their system.

Doug let Harwood shoot that Victor, and Larry's still trying to find a good reason not to buy it! Nice gun.