For the "for sale" section to allow on-board replies is unbusinesslike and unacceptable, to me. It has turned into another forum, where all sorts of comments are posted that have nothing to do with the item for sale. Surely the posting of replies can be prohibited, as it was in the past. ALL business should be conducted in private and off the board. The seller should list his e-mail address or phone number and contact should be made in a private manner. I will no longer list items for sale here, under the present, out of control system.
Other's comments would be welcome on this subject.
Thank you,

Dave and Jim,
I agree

I disagree completely, and I know of no other forum that has a for-sale section which prohibits replies. Banning replies disallows comments from people who might have something valuable to add. It also bans the sell from updating the original post with more pictures or details.

If allowing replies has any negative at all, it is in the fact that it makes it easier for a sellers with something to hide.

Leave it as it is.

The upland sight had to close their clasified to comments. I would agree with Jim. For sale is just that "For Sale" not lets make a deal. Help can be handled off the sale board and if the item deserves a discussion the form can be right here.
Ron

I would like to see the sale section state its for sporting and collector shotguns and rifles no modern type milatary stuff. Hunting books and hunting type equipment in the sperit of the forum.I purchased a camera from Jim off the sale site years ago to take gun pics but it wasn't its only use.They are to many folks trying to get pic collections of every gun for sale but simple forgotten info like whats the guage or LOP I have no problem with. To many forum police,its Daves site and he has managed to get by a long time now so we need to let him run it.I know Jim has been here for the long haul and has seen many changes but all in all its still the best site around.

I figure I'm still a babe to this forum, but I have been around the block a few times.

In my opinion, there has only been one post anytime in the last few months that went way beyond what I perceive to be the somewhat flexible boundary lines.

I just scanned down the first couple of pages of the sales forum and then looked over those that had more than 10 to 15 posts. Most were all business, with a few, not out of line, comments. IMO

An, in the open question, can alert everyone to something you may see, or just something left out of a description. An unanswered question speaks volumes. Then if there is something so important or interesting that it requires more discussion, open a new thread on the Q & A forum.

I do enjoy this forum and learn from it daily. I have been hunting and shooting for over 50 years, but have learned more about guns in the last five on the internet than I dreamed possible. Thanks to Dave and others who operate these pipelines to knowledge.

Amigo, you might be confusing this place with another site. Dave states right up front in the header...
"DoubleGuns for sale and wanted by individuals only...
No Handguns, bolt-guns, Pump-guns...etc. Only break open multi-barrel sporting guns. No paramilitary firearms or other non-doublegun items allowed. "

I don't see the reason for the complaints, discussion is what we're here for and if it bothers someone then just read the initial post and go no deeper.

Is there a specific reason the discussions are objected to other than "unbusinesslike and unacceptable" to an individual?

Dave, Would you please get the PM feature made useable like it is on the Parker and Shooting Sportsman board. No matter how I try all the methods people have posted it WILL NOT WORK for me.
The for sale board is all right the way it is, if people don.t like all the discussion just don't read them. Get a life and enjoy the best gun board (except for the PM) we have.

I post on a Porsche board also and they forbid replies in their for sale section.

I enjoy reading the For Sale threads. I learn not only of what certain SxS's in various conditions are selling for, but also from the questions asked of the sellers.

If one can desires a private transaction they can always send the seller an email. For this the PM function would also be helpful.

The PM's work. Try this as an example:
Click on the blue colored name in the left box
When you do a menu opens so click on Send a PM
When you do that a new page opens
On the left it says Add Recipient
to the right of it is a name in a box, I will try MarkOue above
Click "Add" in the little grey box to the right of the name
When you click "Add" it removes the name from the box and puts it just underneath it.Put in your subject, write your message in the big box and hit submit.
The person on the receiving end should find a red flashing triangle at the top where it says "My Stuff"

dubbletrubble,
I'd like to visit the Porche BBS you spoke of...please advise how to access it. Many thanks.

For what it's worth, I found the Parker DHE 28ga. postings obnoxious with many lacking common courtesy and respect for this forum. Never the less, I'd hate to see the For Sale section restricted.

builder,

I received your PM but when I tried to reply nothing happened when I clicked the "Add" button. The new page did not load. I have limited bandwidth at my present location which may be the cause of others not being able to use the PMs. I'll try again later at home when my air card has better connectivity.

Thanks for your help,
Mark

Put me squarely on the side of both agreeing and disagreeing with Jim Legg. I'm assuming this goes back to the recent volleys over a certain 28 ga. DHE Parker sold by GrandpasGirl. I certainly don't appreciate "interlopers" nosing into my business deals on guns or anything else and stated so there. However the sparring was great entertainment while it lasted, and I chuckled over some of it hours after I shut down the computer. C'mon Jim, you more than held your own against all comers, and I'll bet you even had some fun. We all need to get our juices flowing now and then. Having had my chain jerked many times, and other times being the one doing the jerking, I'm still skeptical about that post. Bait, hook, and presentation... it was good.

Yetti,

If you are out there, maybe you can help Mark.

When a seller lists an item for sale, what could anyone else possibly add that would be of any value to potential buyers?
I'm not suggesting the SELLER be prohibited from adding to, modifying or deleting his own post.

If a seller "has something to hide" how will some kibitzer know anything about that?

You're certainly entitled to disagree with my position on this but your arguments don't make sense(to me).

Before the current program was instituted, the seller could change, edit or delete his own thread. But no one else could reply (on-board) or comment on the item. Gunbroker does not allow comments. Shotgun Sports does not allow them either.

However, if the majority of regular posters on this board like the mess that the classified section has become then it should remain the way it is. Too bad.

It will get no more of my business.

Thanks to all for the replies.

Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. If there is a for sale post that I do not wish to look at, I simply do not look at it. We have a good thing here! I try to relax and not take things so serious. Heck I sorta enjoyed the ole grandpasgirl saga, just between you and me. ;-)

As JL says, the best model was the sale bd. on the previous incarnation/software/server (which wasn't that long ago). Way too much chatter on this one. I sold two or three guns and never saw a problem with stating email or ph. no. in the clear for buyer contact.

jack

[quote=Jim Legg]When a seller lists an item for sale, what could anyone else possibly add that would be of any value to potential buyers?[\quote]

Well, how about that guy from Gunbroker ya'll know and love. I believe he is Ed The Master Gunsmith or some such that does incredible restorations with a torch. You know the guy of course. Some seller like that selling something as correctly restored or even original, and it is not? Someone may have seen or even owned the gun previously. Someone may know quite a bit about the particular gunmaker, model, or that specific firearm that the seller may intentionally be hiding or may simply not know.

Your resistance to having things out in the open makes me wonder about what you are worried about.

I see Jim's issue. However, what happens if a seller--perhaps through inexperience, perhaps inadvertently--leaves out something of significance? Dimensions, for example? I don't see any harm--and in fact, a whole lot of value--in someone adding a post asking for LOP and drop. Gunbroker isn't a back and forth setup, like a BB. I can see the problems with comments like "Isn't that a little pricey?", but maybe what we need is for Dave to tighten the requirements a bit on comments from people other than the seller--although I also hate to put him in a position of playing referee. Something like: "Posts in response to listings on the for sale forum should be limited to questions and clarifications pertaining to the specific item listed. Negotiations between seller and potential buyer should be conducted in private."

I agree with Jim and will add that it should be required for the seller to have contact information listed in their profile. -JB

And there's no reason to keep this warning; it obviously serves little purpose:
''No Handguns, bolt-guns, Pump-guns...etc. Only break open multi-barrel sporting guns. No paramilitary firearms or other non-doublegun items allowed.''

Gentlemen....sorry for the brief reply but the sixth grade band concert starts in 15 minutes and I have the video camera all warmed up.

I am very aware of this thread and will reply more fully later this eve.

How many times have we on this forum talked about Black Diamond Winchesters and Mod 37's ect. The members for the most part show alot of intrest in these guns and I see no problem with them being added to the allowed guns in the sale section. I believe all members should have contact info in their bio so folks can contact them for gun purchases and to become a member. I don't think we need alot of banter in the sale section but some thimes questions asked help all.
Rob this is the only gun forum I use and we both know the header has been there forever. Books and DGJ have always been big sellers but are not listed as OK

Didn't know Will, I just saw your registered date as being very recent. You stated "I would like to see the sale section state its for sporting and collector shotguns and rifles no modern type milatary stuff." and I replied it's already there.

It's my feeling that books about doubles & the DGJ are included in the term "double gun items". As are tools, cases, shells, loaders, etc.

Slow news day.

Dave just said it all regarding this topic. If you don't like the ads, pass 'em by. JL seems to have a new suggestion every week about what he doesn't like around here. Fussy, fussy.

OK...I'm back. Concert was great...I was incorrect as it was both the Middle school band followed by the High School band...lucky for me I had extra DV tapes and the power adapter for the camcorder!

For Sale section…

#1 - I have always provided latitude to members who have been courteous enough to ask prior to posting for sale ads. This would include those who personally sell DGJ collections, Ithaca Model 37's...et al. As I feel these are legitimate sporting items and/or fine firearms. I would expect the same fee if the listing was successful and honestly all the members who have ever asked first then posted have been more than honorable in their commitment to the terms of the for sale section. I prefer the preponderance of ads to feature SxS guns and rifles…so long as the “Other fine Firearms” and related are in the minority I have no issue with them being in the section. For that matter I can light up another forum with related items but there don’t seem to be enough of them to warrant the change.

(Random rant thrown in below just because…it’s true….Or, at least I think so.) I have always been pissed off by commercial ventures who feel the BBS and its members are worthwhile for their advertising so long as it’s free….Apparently only their time and products are worth money where as my time and my product is not….go figure.

#2 - Initially the for sale section did not allow for replies to posted ads...the only party who could modify the ad was the original poster...primarily with the expectation that the ad would be marked sold at that occurrence. My initial intent was to eliminate the deal making portion of the program from the public forum. I had numerous requests to allow two things…a longer edit period for the poster and the ability for replies to expedite communication between the negotiating parties who could not figure out how to email or PM each other. So I did...up till now this has not been an issue.

As always the DoubleGun BBS is a work in process (a software upgrade will be coming up over the next couple of months). I am happy to make changes that are requested by a majority of the members so long as they are inline with the core values of the site. (e.g.…SxS propagating)

I will watch this thread and see how active it becomes...as more individuals weigh in I will decide what if any changes I will make.

Thank you,
Dave Weber

Dave,

I think that you should take it Private. It is a private matter, between buyer and seller.

keep sales private. I do not want my wife finding out I am looking for another sxs

I vote for private. The listing party should post plenty of contact info , email, phone , etc. Thanks

I vote for leaving it as is.

If the PMs were usable by everybody I might change my mind but it is very apparent they are not. They work for me by the way.

Best,

Mike

What am I missing. I am a newbie here, but I did post 1 item for sale. I listed my e-mail on the post. Isn't it that simple if you want it private. All my inquiries have been private. I really don't get what all the fuss is all about?

Tim

What you're missing here Tim, is that even if you ask for replies to be made in private, as I did in my ad listing the PW loader for sale, it still turned into another forum chat room, with irrelevant comments by some of the usual suspects. This is a waste of space and very inappropriate.
This is still the best shotgun site on the net, IMO. Thank you, Dave.
Thank you all,

I still am solidly on both sides of this debate. Lots of valid points on both sides and I don't envy Daves' position as judge, jury, and executioner. Privacy is nice and I related my sad story of an interloper ruining a transaction on a gun. Additional info is good too because it's easy to overlook things in the heat of pursuit. And who wouldn't appreciate getting a heads up that you may be dealing with a Nigerian torch coloring cold blue con artist. Then there's humor and entertainment which they say may prevent cancer and extend our lives. So I'm still thinking. When do the polls close? And do multiple posts count as more than one vote? Jim, for sure you're right that "this is still the best shotgun site on the net" IMO2. Only thing missing is some kind of interface that would let us share an adult beverage or two... after the guns are cleaned and put away, of course

I didn't read all three or four page of this thread but Jim's concerns seem reasonable to me. I've seen advertised guns get the full forum member's value assessment in public attached onto the seller's advertisement, and some "contributors" were somewhat respected in the sxs field if not specifically in the field of the gun being sold. Completely inappropriate IMO. An advertiser should not be "critiqued" in a 'continuation' of his own thread. 'Jus seems wrong.

Whatever Dave decides will be fine with me. There has always been and always will be a few who piss folks off on the forum but its still the best fine gun site on the web.

just took a look at the guns for sale listings, not all of them, but several pages in and noticed that there are a couple of adds that mention the guns listed were sold rather quickly via other venues .. my thought would be to list them here alone for the first couple of days anyway as a courtesy to both other participants on the BBS and to Dave.

not suggesting there was anything wrong and can and do appreciate the sellers' taking the time to make the remark as to the guns' disposition & sold status .. rather it is a question of why bother to list here if you are not going to give it a chance to work? Seems to me we have an an unusually good audience here for the items being listed and too, we should all consider Dave's continued financial viability for this enterprise. Having the 'guns for sale' facet active helps support that.

I'm without a big feel for Jim's expressed concerns, so can't voice an opinion of any weight there, but do think deals are best finalized privately on the phone when possible, photographs and accurate descriptions notwithstanding.

edit: I do think it is discourteous for someone to make inappropriate remarks &/or queries when a seller has specifically asked otherwise. Sometimes those requests from a seller may have to do with how their computers are configured or their ISP connection & it is simply a great deal of extra work for them to respond otherwise. I'm sure there are other reasons as well, but that one comes to mind.

Here ya go. pick your model. The off topic area is great. Lots of info from very knowlegable guys.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/index.php

I think the forum is more valuable public. If one wants a private transaction, then ask for all replies to be private. Of course, some may post anyway but isn't the right to speak out a part of our American culture?
As Keith put it above, with a much better line than I could come up with, "And who wouldn't appreciate getting a heads up that you may be dealing with a Nigerian torch coloring cold blue con artist."
Some want to do all their business in the dark. There may be legitimate reasons for that. Then again, there could be other intent.
One of the most valuable things about this site, is the huge knowledge of the participants. I want someone to give insight who has it. My .02. Regards, Jake

Jim is right. I looked at the post he mentioned. The seller should provide a description, price, how to obtain pictures and an email address. Some have a problem with the PM feature for what ever reason. There is no need for any comments or discussion.

Dave is more than reasonable. I am sure he will find a workable solution.

Pete

I vote to keep it as is. Remembering we are gentlemen as we respond to tha adds.

I also vote with Keith about opening an interface to pass the Bottle and or the solvent/oil back and too.

I vote for PRIVATE.
An ad is an ad is an ad. Same as the Sunday paper.

I tend to agree with Jim, if your want to keep your email private open a web based email like gmail for queries.

Jim

I'd say keep it as it is, we're used to it now. I didn't like the reply feature at first, but sellers don't seem to remember to include their email either in the ad or in their profile sometimes, and since most of us can't work the PM feature, the reply feature is the only way to make contact...Geo

I can't believe this .... but I agree with Jim! ...... I made a comment on the aforementioned thread ..... but on second thought I don't think it's any of my business ..... I must say that I do like to use it to prod a seller when I don't get an answer to an E mail.

Al

Exactly what I was thinking. A lot of the time the replies are simply "Email/PM sent." A lot of things get lost in cyberspace, an open forum allows people to say sent a message so that even if it gets lost, the poster will know it was sent.

My e-mail is listed in the clear, in my profile. Another thing wrong with the routine of allowing replies is that the seller might not even look at his ad for a long time. PMs, even if they work, are a PITA. If the prospective buyer calls or sends a direct e-mail, the seller would/should know about that very soon. Anyone else has no business posting a reply.

Well, Fred Lowe has been maligned and now apparently vindicated. Yet, he's not posted since his single response to the "For Sale" ad. Perhaps he might post now to confirm his reciept and opinion of the gun and put lingering and probably baseless doubts to rest.

He might even express his opinion concerning the Reply feature we have on the Sale Board...Geo

Usually I have a strong opinion one way or another, but I keep thinking about this and can make a dozen valid arguements supportive of both sides. Dave may have inadvertantly hit on a solution when he spoke of considering opening another page for non-double items. I don't know how hard that is, but maybe a solution is another For Sale page. Original Recipe with comments, barbs and snide remarks, and For Sale Lite- No Comments or Trans Fats. One thing I KNOW I don't like is the idea to put more information in our profiles. Keith is my name and I don't hide behind a veil of greater anonimity to insult anyone here. I'm sure 99% of you would be welcome at my home and I'd show you my gun collection and shop. Unfortunately, pedophiles on MySpace aren't the only predators on the Web. I have insurance and layers of security including a safe, alarm system, video, a small dog with a big mouth that wakes up a 12 ga. shotgun, and a device that when tripped will fill my house or shop with grizzly repellant pepper spray. Still, I'd rather not tempt fate. No insurance could replace my first gun, a single shot .22 that Santa Claus left under the tree when I was nine. Incidently, the pepper spray device is nasty. I accidently set it off in my shop once and almost killed myself getting out. Didn't know a human could produce so many tears. I imagine if your wife did that, the resulting divorce could be more costly than losing a few guns.

What we have here are two issues from what I can see.

1. Ads with comments and input not neccesarily in keeping with the original ad

2. what is considered appropriate for the site.

1. The ad's. Either make it pure classified like GA but with the sellers email listed in the ad and all communication is between seller and buyer with no posting of anything. or keep it as is.

2. As far as what is considered suitable or appropriate for this site; that can very easily turn into an insurmountable problem if the wrong person(s) gets to be the judge , jury and executioner, the arbiter of good/bad taste on BBS. A pre war Mauser sporter is not a double, nor is a single shot Alex Henry Sporting Rifle. Are these not suitable for the purview of the GUNSHOP BBS? What about that Winchester Model 12 28 Ga. Solid rib Pigoen grade? (if one exists) Or that Peerless grade 11-48? we could go on and on. I would suggest that we limit the selection to our own good taste. If anyone feels a particlar posting goes against the philosophy of the board, then voice a complaint to Dave and he will make the decisoon, its his site.

I love doubles, hunt with them 99.9% of the time and use classic bolt rifles and double rifles. But, I also love the sound, sight, feel and fun of shooting squirt guns (full auto firearms). Does that make me a bad person and a non classicist? Ask Crossed Chisels (hey Dave, hope I am not speaking out of turn on this one) about some of the Class III stuff he has played with/worked on, especially back in the midwest years. Does that make him a heritic?

Come on boys, lets not get wrapped around the axle on this one.

I like the forum the way it is, and I would have great hesitation to deal with someone that has a problem with publically discussing a gun he was selling.

Brent

OK, have no idea what Dave can do with the softwear but what if there was a option when you place a add to choose if you want it open or closed to further comments? Should make everyone happy.....

My local FFL licencee recently asked me how I could be certain that once I sent a check for a gun I bought via the Internet that I would receive the gun "as described", or even receive the gun. My answer was that most gun sights have feedback ratings. I followed that the particular SxS he had just received for me was purchased via doublegunshop.com and I had no concerns whatsoever. I "knew" or at least had a good feeling about the seller because over the years I had read his posts. From his posts and his feedback to questions asked about the gun I had no doubts of the honesty of the seller and knew the condition of the gun. When I was ready to buy I emailed him and then called to discuss the price and delivery terms. The call also confirmed my perception of the seller.

Obviously I like the for sale board the way it is.

Keep it open. If the comments are off point or abusive,overly critical,then that user should be sanctioned.