Hi all, well I have a story that may interest some of you. Yesterday, I went to our local Sporting Good Store (Scheels) to sell a SxS (Fabarms Classic Lion I) to help defry the cost of another SxS I'm buying. Well get to the store with gun in hand and wait for the "Shotgun" manager to look at it. He unzips the case and looks at the gun with wide eyes saying "Now this is a nice gun!" He goes in the back (for about 20 min.) comes back and asks how much I want. I tell him about $1200 or a fair offer. He nods his head and says "Well I think we can see about that". Now he goes to another part of the store (this time for about 30 min). Comes back and says that this must be a rare bird, because he can't find it in the Blue Book (He's looking under HK not Fabarms). He then says "I'll be right back" goes again to the back, comes out and goes to another part of the store, returns and tells me what I want and what they can give me are worlds apart (like from the Sun to Pluto). He says they will give me $400 for it. Well, as you can guess I say NO. When I asked him why so low, he states, "Well this has a straight stock and DT and we don't really sell them all that well" In the back rack, they have lots of CZ Bobwhites (which BTW they do sell a few of them).

I wondered why he wasted over an hour of my time (and his) just to tell me that they don't sell SxS with english stocks and DT? I bet, they wanted to see if I was stupid and sell it cheap (like I really needed the $$) or someone in the store wanted that gun.

Needless to say I will not ply my trade there.

Anything like this happened to any of you?

All the best!!

Greg

P.S. I posted this on another forum, thought some of you would get a kick out of it.

Typical. If you have it it's not worth anything. If THEY have it it's worth a fortune. Time to move on.

I had the same thing happen in Great Falls, MT at Scheels. The offered $1000 for a SxS they were selling for $2400 at the time. I don't deal with them much any more. Before they moved into the new store, which looks like a Cabelas wana be, they were easier to work with and their prices were fair.(IMHO)
Ron

Gunshops are a terrible place to sell your guns! Unless you just want them out of the house, you really need something else badly or you didn't pay for them to begin with. I understand that the shop wants to make 40% (at least!) on a used gun and they have no idea how long it will take to sell many models. I don't blame them. The thing is- 1/3 the real value is a common offer. I recently was visiting a local shop when a fellow was offered $150. for a Ruger 77 in 7mm mag including the base, rings and scope. He wanted a S&W 629 44mag and took the trade.

Greg, what makes you think your Fabarm is worth $1,200, especially to a dealer?

I onced remarked to my dad how expensive plumbers are or anyone else who is self employed, and he replied, "They have to eat too you know", That gunstore through the selling of guns has to put food on the table, pay the electric bills, the insurance and the like. They have to make something on those guns or else why bother. Greg, just blow it off and go back they appreciate your business and probably the reason they went back and forth for an hour is they probably didn't want to offend you.
All the best

"probably the reason they went back and forth for an hour is they probably didn't want to offend you."

LOL....if someone wants to offend me the first thing they can do is waste an hour of my time and then give me a lame reason for doing so.

Hi, the old standard of hagging - start high and see what happens. Simple as that.

I'll still shop there for odds and ends, just won't deal with them when it comes to guns. Case in point, A freined of mine sold them a Rifle, they gave him $200, they are selling the same rifle for $425. I understand they have to make a profit, but 100%. BTW, this store does not deal, whats on the hang tag is the price, take it or leave it

Take care!

Greg

So, why did you not haggle? You asked for more than retail and he offered less than wholesale.

Let's see......the guy works in the shotgun department but has no idea what your gun is worth without looking it up in the "Ain't gotta a Clue Book" ? Here's your sign!!

I had Cabela's offer me $500 for my classic lion. I told them to stick it was well.

Hi GJZ, I found out they don't haggle - with this store its take it or leave it. I don't know about other Sheels, they may haggle. But here they are the only game in town, we have no Cabelas, Gander MT. Some Pawn shops and 1 gun shop, that will buy cheap and sell high.

All I can say is that one learns thru experience, you hear the stories, but don't believe them until it happens to you. Well, thats life, I'm just going to chalk it up and move on.

All the best!

Greg

Excellent point!!

Greg

Greg, you're not alone. I've seen many guys upset at gun shows when dealers won't give them what they want for their guns, which most commonly is retail.

Hi all, I think some of you think I'm upset or mad, not really, its more surprise than anything. I took it there because they have a rep of selling good quality guns. They will not for example accept surplus arms even if they are sporterized. They tend to be picky on what they buy, but hey a Fabrams is far from a low end gun, granted its not a best gun, but its no Bioto either. So be it!

All the best!

Greg

You guys take these transactions much to personally. To you guys often times the gun is like an "old friend" that's been your hunting partner etc, to the dealer it's nothing more then wood and steel, worth what someone's willing to pay for it. By the time he takes everything into acount such as overhead, market conditions, market preferences often times he just can't afford to give you what you want for your "old friend".
I've purchased two guns from Scheels, one was a Savage 5100 which I got home only to realize that it had a tiny ring bulge at the muzzle. I was from out of town and didn't get back to them for a month, yet they still graciously refunded all my money. The second gun was a 12 gauge Parker VH (a descent gun, but in much need of TLC). Scheels was asking $1200 I offered $700, they didn't even act offended by my offer, in fact they accepted it (imagine that).
I've sold several guns for prices I knew were below market price, so what?
Steve

Cabelas told me 600 bucks would be a fair price for my 16ga Win 21...

This gun sale didn't go wrong...it just didn't go the way you wanted it to. Scheels is a business, who says they have to give you what you want for your gun. They made you an offer, you didn't accept it, turn and walk away, simple as that.

I've sold alot of guns to Scheels and have bought quite a few too and was always treated with respect and courtesy. Sometimes we saw eye to eye and other times I had to walk away, no hard feeling, nothing personal. Your Classic Lion could be bought when brand new for around $1500, and they weren't exactly selling like hot cakes, it wasn't until they were getting closed ot and selling for around $1200 new that they started to move. You are in BFE North Dakota as well, I'm betting doubles aren't the hottest movers on the racks...if you want to sell your gun and not haggle with a store, put it for sale on the board or put it up on Gunbroker or Gunsinternational and try to get what you think is fair.

Has your 16 gauge model 21 been sleeved, hot blued, has the stock been replaced with a camoflauge synthetic monte carlo? If so...then yes....$600 is fair.

The guys I know working at Cabelas wouldn't make such a retarded offer on a small bore Winchester 21. Maybe you needed to talk with someone like Tom Bryant or B.C. Kinsey.

"BFE" North Dakota - I'm glad I do live here!!!!!!! There are some "hicks" here who do like SxS.

Greg

As others have said the last place you want to sell a gun is a dealer.He will always offer you the least amount of all the other ways to sell it.Worked it retail gun sales many years ago, customer brings in guns,two or three salesmen add up what low retail would be and they take the average and offer 50%.
Only works for divorce's,widows and heirs when they don't care as they have no money in it.
If you want to sell a gun do it yourself.If that was my gun I would first try on here after looking what they typically sell for,not what they offered at and most certainly not retail.

I'd only sell junk at a store - anything else go to Gunsamerica.com or Gunsinternational...or you could list it here, of course.

What's interesting is the dealers seem to have no shortage of guns.

I know that there are certain double gun owners who idolize gun dealers. They get greasy at the mention of Chadick or Ivory Beads and cry like schoolgirls at a Beatles concert when you mention Steve Barnett.

I pretty much maintain that dealers are leeches that do a lot more harm than good. They turn what should be a hobby into a business. They doctor guns, they fake guns, and they strip guns of provenance. All pretty serious crimes against humanity.

A dealer is an opportunist, not an enthusiast.

I guess what irritates me is the arrogance of the so called offer at times, regardless of the lack of knowledge and bravado.
I offer in good faith and try for a fair deal; if I was looking to rape or pillage I'd troll it on Gunbroker for a few years. I don't go to a dealer to sell expecting a killing for sure;usually I anticipate more of a beating for some practical,logistical or time reason on my part.
I understand the issues of being in business, and I will NEVER begrudge someone a reasonable profit.However,if someone wishes to bend me over,( so to speak), the least they could do is throw in a few niceties first ! Jeez they are awful sweet when I'm looking to buy their guns...my rant for the day. Rick

I've had good results selling used shotguns HERE, and on gunbroker.com.

One local gunshop with where I buy a lot of reloading supplies will sell my used guns for me on straight commission of 10% of the selling price. I think that is a pretty good deal.

By the way, I think a used Classic Lion is worth $800 to $900 depending upon condition and barrel length (the 30" is most coveted).

JERRY

gjw
FWIW
100% profit is impossible. If the price is double it is 50% profit.

Buying shotguns is what is fun about our hobby. The search, the research, the bargaining, and the anticipation are what we're after. Once you buy it, it goes in the safe and becomes only an obligation to try and get out shooting or hunting a couple times a year.

Selling shotguns is a pain. Dealers and pawnshops just see you as a "mark". Go to a show and Troll a gun for sale and you find out how few people have a clue about the guns we love.

IMHO the only reasonable way for an individual to sell a sxs is on the internet on a site dedicated to folks interested in and knowledgable about what you're trying to peddle. Understand going in to the sales process that the only reason dealers expect to get retail is because they invest in the premises, the inventory, the sales staff, and all the other overhead that brings customers to them....Geo

This is pretty common procedure for a gun store. I had a chance to buy a brand new Stevens 311 last year for $75.00 from a private individual. A buddy of his told me about it. Not a great gun, but well worth the money. But, before I had the chance to get out to his house and buy it, or even call him, he had sold it to a gun shop near here. Then the price was $550.00. Guess I won't be owning a 311 in the near future. I'm not into them all that much.

"100% profit is impossible. If the price is double it is 50% profit."


Here in Texas, anyway, the math is that a buy at $200 and a sell at $400 is a 100% profit. A sell at $800 is a 200% profit. A sell at $300 is a 50% profit.


The problem....as with all of the USA, is that making a living is no longer fashionable. The gun dealer can't live in a 1300 sq ft house and drive a 9 year old 1/2 ton truck and wear a pair of shoes until they wear out.

Like the owner of a Pizza Hut or the guy who picks up your garbage, the gun dealer must drive a 2008 Tahoe XXT Edition. He must live in a new 4000 sq ft house and he must have a pair of shoes for each day of the week. He must eat at Chili's four times a week. If he did not screw the seller of guns and the buyer of guns he would only have a DVD player, not an HDTV player.

That's OK. You want to know how to get even with everybody? Just do what I do. The next time you go through Taco Bell, order two Steak Naco Bell Grandes. It will come to $6.38. Drive up to the window and hand them a ten dollar bill and four pennies. Then watch the fun begin. That'll teach 'em all............Denny Crane

I think that the title of this thread is a misnomer....It is not a gun deal gone bad, it is two people that could not come to common ground in the negotiations. Happens in business all the time.

In the words of Bill Murphy, gun stores don't want to own guns; they want to sell them. If they paid retail, they would really own it for a while. The thing that would really get my goat is the half-hour of leg swinging in the back room.

jack

Well here in PA buy for $200 sell for $400 is 100% return but not profit.

If you pay anything, even one cent and resell it, 100% profit is impossible.

Sorry if this is spliting hairs but it is a fact.

The local Scheels around here is known for their complete ignorance of anything remotely collectible in the way of firearms.They had a Pre-64 Model 70 in 300 Winchester come in the store and offered the guy 300 dollars for it. Rare caliber,original and 98% finish.Said it was a hard caliber to sell.They had no idea of its collectors value.
One of their salesman bought the gun himself and resold it for 3 times his cost the same day to collector.I could go on and on about this particular store as one of my relatives worked there.

There is ignorance and/or complete ignorance at many big box gun stores and there is a real difference. Ignorance is very common when the store employee either does not know what he is doing or is misinformed about what he thinks the facts are or is just flat out mistaken. Might just be a simple lack of knowledge, and to be fair who know about all the rifles, pistols and shotguns out there and what their fair market value might be.

Complete ignorance is another matter. Then the person is pretending to know what they are doing, often with a desire to sound like they know what they are doing when they really do not. BS artist is another way to look at them.

Most big box gun room employees have very limited real knowledge. If you have more than one real smart fellow in the gun room it is a very well staffed room . Most have about a half smart person and a smart buyer suffers. It is hard to work with any expert when you know more than the expert does. You have to teach them what they do not know to get them to do what you hope they can or will do for you. Most of us just give up and go elsewhere.

There have been a lot of truths spoken here, and I always do enjoy going on and reading even when it's the same thing being re-hashed for the thousandth time.

Some items of note from this thread:

1) You are selling a shotgun that is your old friend to a business where it's only merchandise. And because it's your friend you put a higher value on it then you should. And they have to guess whether they will have their money tied up in it for two weeks or four years, and the risk that to make it go away at some point in time they might have to sell it at loss. Just because it might be a nice gun doesn't mean that anyone will come into the store and buy it at even a low fair price.

2) Give someone who is trying to make a living at selling guns a break. Guns don't move off the shelves like bread and milk do and look how much of that inventory is tossed outr as garbage everyday because it doesn't sell and is now stale/spoiled.

3) There is no such thing as 100% profit. Percent profit by its very definition is "always" calculated based on the selling price. Pay $50 sell for $100 you made 50% profit. Pay $20 sell for $100 you made 80% profit. Pay $2 sell for $100 you made 98% profit. Now if you pay $50 and put the price at $100 you have "marked the price up" 100%, but when you sell it at $100 you made 50% profit. Don't believe me, go to any definition site on the internet and verify the definition of percent profit. It's the same all over U.S. no matter where you are and all over the world as well. It's better defined than caliber and gauge as there is no range of acceptable variances.

4) Unless you have some killer gun and take it to a specialist who has eager customers for it, taking an average gun to a dealer is the worst choice. Do you expect to get the best price for your used car by taking it to the new car dealer in town and selling it to him even though you are not buying a new one from him. Same principal. Want to see how "easy" it might be to sell your gun at your desired price? List it on gunbroker or gunsinternational as previously suggested and see how many people beat you door down to buy it quick. Or if you think your local gun store has an eay go of selling guns, list it in your local paper or pennysaver and sit by the phone waiting for it to start ringing off the hook.

5) Here's an even better one, not from this thread but from a friend of mine who is an antique dealer. About two months ago a collector phoned him to offer him an antique that he had decided he didn't want any longer. When my friend told him that that was not his antique area of focus the collector told him that as a professional dealer in antiques it was his responsibility to focus on and handle all antiques and since he had a business in selling antiques it was also his responsibilty to buy everything offered to him and at a fair price to the collector. Amazing isn't it when we have something to sell. And when we see something we want we want the seller to sell it to us for less than he paid for it.

O.K., I've vented, now come blasting back at me with all those barrels blazing and spitting fire.

Technical violation of the law. A private individual who buys a gun with the intention of selling for a profit is considered to be dealing in firearms.

"There is no such thing as 100% profit. Percent profit by its very definition is "always" calculated based on the selling price. Pay $50 sell for $100 you made 50% profit. Pay $20 sell for $100 you made 80% profit. Pay $2 sell for $100 you made 98% profit. Now if you pay $50 and put the price at $100 you have "marked the price up" 100%, but when you sell it at $100 you made 50% profit. Don't believe me, go to any definition site on the internet and verify the definition of percent profit. It's the same all over U.S. no matter where you are and all over the world as well. It's better defined than caliber and gauge as there is no range of acceptable variances."

I agree that we are really splitting hairs. We all know that whether you want to call it return, margin, profit or whatever ...no one talks in terms of a percentage that can't exceed 100%. Can you imagine a couple gun dealers sitting around, bragging that "I made 89.345% profit on that deal!"? Of course not. They are much more likely to say "I tripled my money on that deal" or just "I made $400 on that deal." That's because the 'profit' method does not lend itself to the mental mathematics that people use in normal conversation.

If you're going to use profit as a percentage of selling price versus purchase price, you'd better be prepared to include in the same breath a statement of profits before and after taxes as well as the opportunity costs and the unburdened labor rate of the transaction. It'd be a shame to confuse the listener.

Hi all, well I started this post and I think its time to end it. I hope you all don't think I'm mad or POed at Scheels, it may come across that way, but I really am not. To be fair the guy I delt with was very nice and polite. I also did not expect to get the price I was asking, if I did great, but I also did not expect the offer they made to be so low. I wanted some room to deal, they did not and so I said no.

Could I try to sell it on the web, sure, but I thought I'd give someone the business here, plus its a lot less hassel. Will I sell it, I'll try, but to a private party, thru a local web site.

I will buy from them, but as I said odds and end, I have bought 1 gun from them (a Beretta 627EL, SxS - the european market gun, english stock and DT) it was a fair deal for both of us, I was happy with it. I don't see many deals however at this store, most are over priced, some way over. At one time this store did deal, no more - so be it.

I'm at fault for the title of this post - bad choice of words, I should have said "An Interesting Gun Deal".

As to profit, return, etc, ok sorry - again, bad choice of words on my part, but hey, this part is getting silly - don't you think.

My intent of this post was not to get folks to feel sorry for me or to down Scheels, perhaps it came across this way - if I did I'm sorry - I just wanted to tell what happened to me.

So lets end this on a happy note and all of us hug one another, again sorry for any misunderstanding. Next time I will choose my words more carefully.

All the best!

Greg

Greg
I don't think that anyone thought that it was malicious in anyway, just a lively conversation.
As far as the rest of it goes, it is just imparting knowledge about other things, that couldn't be bad could it?

Thanks Mark!!, just wanted to clear uo some things. No you are right it is lively amd knowledge ius always good.

Thanks again!

Greg

"It's not personal ...... it's just business" ....... Don C.

The only gun I ever sold to a dealer was something I picked up at a yard sale for almost nothing ..... and had no use for. I looked it up on the major gun sales sites to find the average retail prices ...... took half that amount, added $200 for wiggle room and offered it to a local Smith/Dealer for that amount. He knocked off $200 ..... I added back $100 and we settled for $50 more than my guess of the wholesale price. I made some money and the dealer had another gun for his inventory. About a year later I was in his place and it was still in his rack ..... marked down.

Bouvier

"My intent of this post was not to get folks to feel sorry for me or to down Scheels, perhaps it came across this way - if I did I'm sorry - I just wanted to tell what happened to me.

So lets end this on a happy note and all of us hug one another, again sorry for any misunderstanding. Next time I will choose my words more carefully."

Sorry Greg if you felt I directed my reply just at you as I didn't intend to. I do like all the ideas and points of view but sometimes the repeat of certain themes just gets to me.

At the end of the day this gun loving group is all about enjoying guns, whatever each of us can afford, or not afford, and if a guy loves his gun/make/model/caliber/gauge it makes no difference where that data sits in another gun lover's mind.

If we get to ragging on every aspect of this business and others in it then we are absolutely no better than the die-hard party Republicans and Democrats who would rather go to their graves early believing they are the only party that is right, rather than ever admitting in actuality they get it wrong most of the time by simply voting along party lines rather than with intelligence.

Greg,

Next time I go off like I did the other day just post the question to me "Have a bad week Dave?".

Anyway, sorry again for the hair splitting.

And the answer is yes I did, but mellower today.

Dave

Hi Dave, no I did not feel that way at all! Don't worry about it. No offense was ever taken. Not eveyone agrees on everything as you said. In fact, I learned a lot thru everyones comments.

I really like this forum a lot, one of the best and the folks here are all great, sharing their opinions and knowledge - just wonderful in my book.

Thanks for the kind thoughts.

All the best!!

Greg

When your talking about profit you can't calculate it right after the sale. He has to pay his electric bill, heating bill, insurance, pay his employees, their taxes, his mortgage or rent, and pay himself for that matter and for every gun sold that 'profit margin' is eaten up by his expenses.
Soooooo Like I said before, he's got to eat too!!!
All the best

Help me understand the percentage of profit on this transaction:

Your next door neighbor has 4 truckloads of dirt on his land he wants hauled off. He spots you in the driveway and asks if you can help. You agree to take care of it by tomorrow if he pays you $50 per load. He agrees and pays you in advance. You walk back inside your house where your old buddy is sitting quietly at the kitchen table. Your old buddy lives next door to a guy who owns a dump truck and a front end loader and is desperate for 4 loads of dirt. He needs it to finish a multi-million dollar contract. So that night when Old Buddy gets home he calls over the fence to his dirt-desperate neighbor and tells him to get his dump truck and front end loader and stop by your house the next day. The next day, he shows up and you tell him you'll sell him the dirt sitting next door for $200 per load. He pays you, loads it up, and he's gone.

You now have $1000 in your pocket. You paid nothing for the dirt; in fact you were paid to own it. You spent absolutely nothing to complete the transaction needed to sell it.

So what is the percentage of profit? If you had been given the dirt for free it would be 100% profit - so the profit must be higher than 100% since you were paid to own it.

This illustrates why profit as a percentage of sale price is flawed denominator.

I hate to beat this to death but wow! unless i'm way off base - when you sell any item for double what you paid for it you've made 100% percent on it. If you invest in stock and double your money for the year the report would show 100%- I cant see it any other way- so please, someone explain

Ithacaman:

I think "return on investment" would be 100% in that case. Though I'm not an accountant. To the average Joe, it seems pretty much the same thing, and not really worth losing sleep over.

Their point is that you can only make 100% profit as a max...kinda like you can't say you are 110% pregnant. But as my example shows, using the accounting-proper definition of 'profit' leaves a lot to be desired in the real world.

Ithacaman - Profit is the amount of your revenue that exceeds your expense. Profit here is calculated based on what you sell for. If you pay $50, sell for $100 (100% markup), your profit is $50 -- 50% of your revenue.

GregSy - So much for disdain of hairsplitting. Would you say your profit % is infinite? One could think of an infinite number of examples of selling something that supposedly cost nothing. I can't tell you how, but trust me that business/tax accounting rules cover them and yet preserve the definition of profit.

And your markup is 100%. Markup is gross profit dollars divided by cost dollars (GP$/C$).

Best,

Mike

If gunshops were as profitable as some of you think there would be a whole lot more of them. Instead there are fewer every year. The markup is very little on new firearms and the big retailers (mostly Walmart) can sell the cheaper guns that used to be the bread and butter of a gunshop for less than a small dealer can buy them. Likewise ammunition and some basic supplies and gear.

That leaves gunsmithing and higher priced and custom stuff for a decent profit, but even with used guns the average is still nowhere near the 40 to 50% of gross that other types of sporting goods get for regular retail sales.

Out of that the owner has to pay rent, utilities, insurance, licensing, salaries if he can afford to hire anyone, and a lot of other stuff. He has to live on what's left.

I considered going into the business. I decided it was a good way to make a small fortune .... If I started with a large fortune.

There are good and bad business men in every business the gun business is no different.If plan to go toe to toe with the big box stores you will lose.If you have a good acess to used guns that the sellers did not buy (widows and divorces) you can hit lots of doubles and while waiting for a big score's to come to you.
Its been said before here many times.
You don't make money on a gun when you sell it,you make your money when you buy it!

It really depends on what type of gun you are talking about when you talk about gaining or losing a certain percentage on a sale. For instance: if you have a Mossberg that you what to get rid of, and you pay someone $50.00 to take it off your hands? You've gained 100% on the sale. If you need anymore expert advice, please ask. But I don't come cheap.............Denny Crane

This is absolutely true, I swear it.

a) Percent profit is based on selling price, so the highest percent profit is indeed 100%. So if you got it for free and sold it for $200 you made 100% profit on the sale. If some one paid you $800 to take it off their hands and you sold it for $650,000 you still made 100% profit on the sale. Does it mean the two examples are equal in every way imaginable, no it does not, are they equal in percent profit made on the sale, yes. As another poster said you cannot be 110% pregnant, 100% is the max.

b) Sit down for this one, there is both gross profit and net profit. Gross profit doesn't take into account any associated costs of the business. So you buy two guns for $300 and sell them for $500 so your gross profit on the two sales is $200/$500 or 40% Gross profit. But it cost you $80 in gas, rent of the table at the gun show, and lunch, so your net profit is $200-$80 = $120 or $120/$500 = 24% Net Profit.

It's amazing that anyone makes any real money selling either new or used guns, it's best as a hobby business.

Ithacaman, think of it this way, you did make a 100% markup from your acquisition price, or another way to look at it you doubled your money on the deal. But by the actual accounting legal definition the % profit made on the sale is the percent of the selling price that the profit on the sale represents. Just as to keep order in firearms there is legal/standard definition of bore size, lands, grooves, etc so everyone can speak in the same terminology and understand what is being referred to, the same needs exists in accounting terminology so everyone stays on the same page.

It doesn't mean it was the "only" way to correctly define it at the time, there could have been many ways available, it simply means that it was THE way it "was" defined and is now the standard way to always compare apples to apples

Always remember and never forget: maximize return; minimize profit. Maybe it would help if we simply changed the wording from 100% profit to "all profit". That vernacular usage does very well to suggest that no part has been deducted from the pot O gold to pay for buying map to pot, digging it up, etc. Ya just looked down and there it was! Could be things were a lot easier in the days of the "five-fold increase".

jack