Does anyone have an idea when # 4318 may have been made.My info is a little confusing.
Thanks dave

This site says 1935.
http://armscollectors.com/sn/winlookup.php
Schwing's chart (page 235) says the frame was made in 1930

I just checked three serial numbers on that site of guns that I know the date of manufacture. The site was off by ten years or more on each of them. I suggest you call the folks at Cody if you want a definitive answer.

regards

Orry is right. It is almost impossible to date a 21 without a letter from the Cody Museum. And a lot of the paperwork is missing. But you might get lucky. #9411 was made in 1948 and #10407 was made in 1935. It may cost you to find out this info unless you are a member. But I would guess yours was made around 1935 or maybe before. Good luck......P.S. Do you own the gun?

terc,

This won't be of much help to you with the variability of Winchester's serialization, but I've a M21 here lettered by the Cody Museum that left New Haven in 1936. Ser. No. 363X. As others have said, the Cody letter is the only sure answer.

Robert

Can someone please explain why some of you want to know when your M21 left the factory. Who cares if it was 1937, 1947 or 1957? Let's say it was 1937 does that put you in an elite club of prewar M21 owners or something? Basically just an insignificant tidbit of information. Better to spend your research fee on shotgun shells and get some shooting practice with the M21.

It's curiosity, my friend. Most people like to know where they came from, and the same applies often to things they own. We don't live by bread alone. With my American doubles, it's nice to know of the times they were made. I can then relate to the men who built and used those guns---how many days to make them, how they were valued in those years, populations of birds etc.

When I take a gun from the rack in early morning, my choice has a lot to do with my mood, my state of mind, and the sight of an 1899 Parker or 1925 Philly Fox or an Army and Navy sold to Mr. Shilling in 1914 for seven pounds seven shillings is intrinsically important to me before I'm out the door. Or if I'm bloody-minded I might just grab the seemingly consummate killer 1970 SKB.

The human spirit is not concerned with objects. The human spirit is concerned with the significance that relates one object to another. It renders a more satisfying life for me. That's the way I see things any way---and that may come from living too long in the woods. But knowing the history of my guns means a lot more than a box of shells to me. Regards, King

King

A very fine explanation and one with which I can heartily agree.

Well said, KB.

cb - interest in the history/provenince of an item does not automatically translate into elitism or some class distinction. There are a lot of "Basically just an insignificant tidbit of information" that I enjoy; I find it a much richer hobby through knowing such. You are welcome to your seeming view as guns as tools only, but there are many that don't share it.

Thanks for the replies.I don't own the gun,but do have a chance to.I thought that by knowing the manufacture date one could tell if the configuration,checkering patterns,ect.. of the gun matched what was avalable in that time period.
Dave

Sorry for using this thread to try and post my first photo. But since we are talking about M21s, I'll try to leave a picture or two of Ser. No. 363X that I mentioned in my earlier post.

Another reason date of manufacture can have some relevance in M21s', Cherry Bomb, has to do with wood quality/color/figure....at least according to Ned Schwing, author of the M21 book. He stated therein (pg. 101) that pre-war guns had their walnut sourced from older black walnut trees out of Missouri as opposed to many of the later post-war (1950's) guns.

A big generalization on his part, perhaps, but he claimed it to be darker overall than some of the lumber Winchester later used. This pretty much bears out when looking at pictures of some of the early pre-war guns in his book. Not all, but in some. This 1936 gun was refinished by myself some years ago when replacing the recoil pad, and I can vouch that no stain was used to darken it......just Pilkington's clear oil.

The frame is roll stamped as a 'Trap Grade' - yet still with factory field dimensions according to Cody letter - that was special ordered by Abercrombie & Fitch in 1936. The LOM case shown came from the estate of the late Ed Zern, humorist and fishing writer for Field & Stream more years ago than I wish to remember.

Hope the photos work!!??

Robert

Robert,

That is a great looking Model 21.

"Trap Grade" did not mean trap gun. The "Trap Grade" could be had in any gauge, barrel length, choke or stock type. (Read pages 85-87 in Schwing's book).

Robert,

I recently finished photographing and indexing the sales records of the Winchester model 21's sold by A&F in 1936. There was only one listed that had a 4 digit serial number beginning 363. It is listed as a Trap grade ejector with 30 inch bbls, weighing 8 lbs, 1 oz (wow!) and choked IC and IM. Does that sound like yours?

Yes our curiosity is overwhelming! My 16 ga frame is dated 1931 in Schwings book and the Win museum folks letter shows shipping in 1937. My Standard has a frame dating from late 1941 and it was shipped May 1947. Evidently they kept a lot of frames around in preparation and the numbers in the books(and particularly that web site) are way off.

Don,

Thanks for the kind words on the gun. Your comment about a 'Trap' grade possessing any number of options was actually known to me prior to my post, but I didn't know if all others were aware that the grade designations had little to do with how the gun could be configured. The forearm shown was a later add-on (by me) who felt the original kidney-pattern beavertail was too much of a good thing for field or sporting clays. Still have that, too, safely stored away.

Bob,

Bingo on the number you suspect. Gun is still choked at IC & IM, 30"....no changes. Any info on who may have ordered that through A&F? E-mail me at turnstone@bitterroot.net if it's anything you can share. And my 'Thanks' for what you have shared re: your cataloging of A&F orders.

Robert

Did that Leg-0'-Mutton case once belong to the humorist Ed Zern?...Geo

Classic styling, a "Funeral" frame and wood to set it off and to top it off it says 'Winchester" on it!!!
When I was in Germany at a restaurant with my friends, the owner had this really thick Bavarian accent so much so that my buddies wife, who is German, couldn't understand him and she frequently asked him to repeat himself as he went over the menu. He had a replica lever gun over the fireplace I turned and pointed and said, "Winchester", he nodded enthusiastically and repeated "Ya Winchester"!!! That was the only English word he knew how to pronounce!!!!
Beautiful shotgun Robert absolutely beautiful!!!
All the best

'Thanks' Treblig. I know there are folks who can't say much good about M21s', but I've never been one of them. You either seem to like them or you don't.

To Geo. Newbern - That's the very same Mr. Zern, George. I remember reading him when just a kid, which pretty much dates me I'm afraid. He & Gene Hill were sort of cronies on fishing and hunting trips it seems, and he did write several funny (small format) books which are a hoot also, if you come across them.
I happened to come across the case some years ago through New England Arms, who was handling his sporting estate to some degree.

Robert

Another reason for finding out the serial number is the significance of the date it was made and shipped. One of the 21s I have is a trap grade- serial number 1975X and was shipped from Winchester on 9/12/47. The day I was born.

I have had two 21s that were shipped in 1948 and 1950 and were numbered ten thousand numbers apart, nearly a third of total prodution. Yes, they stored frames and used them in no particular order. I have owned a 21 that was shipped in 1954 and was numbered 32,4XX, a very high number.

It would have been reasonable to make all the frames in one run - one batch. That would have saved considerably on tooling set-up costs. Does anyone know if that is, in fact, what happened?

Rocketman,

I've hesitated to respond, because others here are certainly more versed about frame production than I am (likely Don Moody for one). All I know is what I can pull from Schwing's book.

Schwing stated on pg. 235 of his M21 book that Winchester did produce their frames in very large lots - with over 5,000 having been made the first year of production (1931). He then goes on to mention that only 615 guns sold that first year despite company speculation that they'd be doing 'big business' with the M21 - inspite of the ongoing depression.

The economy of mass producing the frames makes real sense, but how they were pulled by ser. number and put into final assembly apparently did (does) not, as he relates on preceding pg. 234. He mentions previously numbered frames being buggered up and scrapped during production, as well as entire trays of serialed rough frames languishing around for as many as ten years before being called up. This is how he explains the unreliability of dating M21s by ser. no., which is 'why' we're clearly dependent upon the Cody Museum for anything substantive.

Not that illuminating a post on my part, but that's how it came about according to Schwing, and I hope it's of some use.

Rob Harris

How'd you manage that Jimmy, did you find out after you bought the gun, did you know before you bought it or did you search it out?

I'd love to have a nice gun that came out of the factory on the same day I did, the best I have managed is to garner some minty M94's and Marlin 336's from 1955.

Robert Harris's comment about the Winchester expectation of "big business" in 1930 reminds me of some ads I have found in early magazines. The 21 was introduced at about $57.50. In the years following introduction, I have seen ads offering brand new 21s for as low as $36.00. Times were bad and apparently Winchester sent the new gun to jobbers and dealers for very low prices. I personally have sold 21s for prices that seemed like $36.00 just a few days after I sold them.

O'Connor's Shotgun Book says Winchester never made a nickel on the production-line guns.

Plus, you have to keep in mind that many people ordered certain serial numbers. Supposedly, according to Herb Orre, the first 21 ever made was serial number 2167. On that day, he was supposed to be 21 years, 6 months and 7 days old. Or so the story goes. I don't think that anyone knows if that story is true or not.

How I got that 21 is a long story, Rob. But to make it short, I bought the gun from Steve Barnett at the Louisville show and was surprised to find out the final inspection and shipping dates until I inquired from Cody. It has beautiful wood and is all original. I would love to keep it in the family and give it to my son. One day I hope to run it up to Brent Umberger and have it gone through and cleaned up.

Eightbore,

In 1933 A&F sold Standard grade 21's for $78, if you wanted a ST the price was $87. Interestingly, most of the guns in the A&F inventory then are marked "consigned" as apparently Winchester was not requiring payment until the guns were sold.

KB... I love your response! There are all kinds of folks, with a myriad of interests (or lack of!). I would venture that many of us enjoy knowing the history of our toys, and of the times in which they were made.

You're right, KB. Winchester never made any money off of the 21. But it was always John Olin's baby so they kept making them. He was making plenty off of the Model 12, roller skates, ammo and flashlights.

Bob, thanks for the A&F info. The low price Model 21 prices in ads in my collection were from Hudson Sporting Goods and Sloans. I can't remember what years but it was before the war. Murphy

Cannot prove or disprove, but one book I have on Winchester states the M 21 was a great help in getting Winchester through the depression. It was a gun which the few people having funds would buy. Whether or not they made any money on them is really immaterial, the choice to build them was totally their's. Returns could have come in various ways. Money paid to NBC, CBS, ABC, EtAl does not return one thin dime "Directly", but do you know of a Company that doesn't advertise, & they expect it to "PayOff". Regardless of how much Mr olin "Loved" the 21, I seriously doubt he considered jeapordizing the Co to keep it in production. According to one account I read they "Suddenly Discovered" after some 25± years that if they charged it it's fair amount of overhead it had lost money. Funny thing was they immediately approximately tripled the price, but don't recall reading of the accounting department getting the Ax. Marlakey such as that I simply don't concern myself about.

Miller, over the years, you have been level headed about most things. However, it seems that any time a the Model 21 was brought up, you slip down to a lower level and have nothing very good to say. Just what did John Olin, Winchester, the Model 21 or folks who like them do to you?

The Model 21 is just an American icon - in the great big world of guns, it's a UFO!

Pay attention everyone, the village idiot speaks!

Hey ole pokie, they're collectible - aren't they?

Like I said 2-piper, Olin didn't jeapardize the company when he was losing money on the 21. He was making millions on the other Winchester/Olin products. But he knew what many of us today know- it was the only shotgun that the good Lord put his whole heart and soul into. So losing a bit of money on the 21 didn't bother John Olin at all. It was only a drop in the bucket to him.

Don, I don't understand your opinion of Miller dropping to a lower level because he allegedly has a different view from yours or mine. The board has no value with a membership of me-toos. What gives the board its distinction is its extraordinary breadth of experience and views. I think the M21 deserves the acclaim of thousands of discriminating gunners and collectors but it is only a serviceable, strong gun to me. The board has no arbiter relegating dissenters to a bush league.

Don;
When the town of Tombstone AZ was booming they had two newspapers. When they had a little shoot-out down at the OK Corral one paper extoled the virtues of the "Earps", the other that of the "Cowboys". I just think we need opposing views. I have been told that because the 21 doesn't happen to be my favorite gun I'm just jealous of all those who own them because obviously the 21 is "SO GOOD" everybody Has to want one etc, etc. I just wonder how many who extoll this lost money bit are CPA's & have Audited Winchester's Books. Winchester built it, Winchester priced it & Winchester sold it. "IF" they indeed lost money on "Everyone" they sold it was their wish to continue it. If on the other hand they calculated it brought them prestige & enhanced the sale of other guns, it was likely some of their "Cheapest" advertizing. Personally though I simply had never heard of this "Lost Money" bit until they decided to drop it as a production gun & make it a product of the Custom Shop. Even then the statement I saw was it only lost money due to not being assigned it's proper share of overhead. What's the old saying, you can fool all of the people some of the time & some of the people all of the time. Well this just smacks to me as being more Ploy than Fact. But what do I know, I was a machinist, not an accountant.
I love my Lefever shotguns, but I simply don't get as arrogant about them as the average 21 owner. The 21 is a strong shotgun due to being built of alloy steels, rather than case hardened mild carbon steel. There are many guns of superior design to it.
Jimmy; One simply has to wonder just how you have any idea at all as to what shotgun God would prefer or "IF" he even cares for them at all. My main goal in life is to try to lift myself up toward God's level, not pull him down to mine.

The M-21 is a great gun. If you don't agree, fine, there are many other avenues for you to you to consider. I happen to like Ithaca NIDS. I DON'T consider them BU as a few posters seem to delight in. I sure don't understand the negitave attact mode some here seem to enjoy! If you think us stupid, fine, Please leave us alone.

King, it was not because he had a different view, it was because of the way he seems to express it when a Model 21 is the subject.

Miller, Your slam is well noted!
I know that your Lefevers are fine shotguns. Their just not mine, but I don't belittle them at every turn(in fact. I never have). Your opinion that the average 21 owners are arrogant is not a fair assessment. The same might be said owners of other well known name shotguns, but they tend to get a pass. JMO.

Well said, Walt.

God shoots a 32" 20 gauge Lefever side cocker. However, he carries a Model 21 round frame Duck when it's raining. There is a use for every gun of quality.

Miller - Do you really think Winchester marketers plotted to leak evidence of incompetent cost accounting to justify a price increase? A pretty extravagant suggestion when apparent and mundane business world realities explain Winchester's operating and pricing decisions.

Gene Hill and Don Zutz wrote good things about the M-21 (without denigrating other guns or gunmakers) and influenced me. I'm an average M-21 owner. I think Lefevers are wonderful guns, and would love to own one if I could easily find one suitable for my kind of hunting.

My question to you is similar to Ole Cowboy's. How many arrogant M-21 owners have you crossed paths with to warrant the generalized slur? My personal experience is very different, but perhaps your efforts to lift yourself to God's level are rewarded with insights hidden from me.

Please forgive my sarcasm. You contribute a wealth of practical knowledge to this board. I've enjoyed exchanging a few private messages with you in the past about your views of the M-21, and your comments were quite different from the above. Talk on the internet sometimes takes on depersonalized aspects a little like "road rage".

Jay

First & foremost someone please tell me what I have said that "Disparaged" a model 21. I have said on several occasions they are a strong sturdy gun, made of modern materials & capable of holding up to continued use. They just don't happen to be my preferred shotgun. Seems as if I don't faint & swoon at ones mere mention I am disparaging it. I have been told "Here" on this board several times I was "Jealous" because I couldn't afford one, by people who had no idea as to the stance of my bank account, they were simply unable to accept, I didn't want one. I call that arrogance. What I have done on several occasions is refute some wild & ridiculous claims. As an example, one poster (I have no idea now who & could really care less) in all seriousness thought Winchester was the first maker of dbl shotguns to incorporate a bbl check. He tried to "Prove" it by the fact it was covered by a patent. Naturally I refuted that, though I have no idea who used the first one, one was shown on a patent drawing of 1872 by F S Dangerfield, though this was not the patented feature, probably was already in general use. So it goes, try & point out a few facts to those who simply elevate a particular item beyond all reality & you're labled a "Basher". So be it, make a wild claim & I'll refute it if I have something to refute with.
As to the "Lost Money" claim, why would this info be released at all. Many, Many Co's have made items on which they made very little if any money, in order to promote good will & "Cultivate" sales in other areas. I have no doubt at all the day winchester put the 21 on they market they knew it would never be a big seller. After all they had spent about the last 75 yrs or so promoting "Repeating Arms", Nota Bene, WRA Co. Their co in fact was a major player in the fact it would not be a big seller. WHY? indeed did they after some 25 yrs of productiuon declare that everyone sold had been at a loss. And I did indeed read at the time, that it was due to not being charged it's share of overhead, not that mat'l & labor cost more than it's selling price. As to the accuracy of that statement I have no idea, I have no idea actually, if any of them lost money at all. Either way it would not be a factor in what I would be willing to purchase one for. This always seems to be mentioned to make them appear more "Valuable", though for the life of me I cannot understand why.

Miller, the "Nota Bene" is just TOOOOO much. I ,as the Perazzi guy (dealer) admit that I have no knowledge in that language. I own a number of Model 21's and like them. So, big deal.You live in Lynchburg, TN and my father's family lived in Lynchburg,VA. You can not do alcohol there and the other place has Farwell's group doing the same. Keep it up.I only wish that I may meet you face to face some day.Thank you so much for your posts.
Bill

Miller, I have no quarrel with you correcting erroneous statements of ignorant owners. That is not disparaging the gun. But the word fits when you assert that M-21 owners are collectively arrogant based on your experience with merely an ignorant few. Jay

Gunflint;
I concede you are right on that point. It was a very poor choice of words & as you say does not fit all 21 owners by a long shot. To you & others to which it does not fit I offer my sincere appology & will try to refrain from such statements. I do not even recall the names of those I did really consider arrogant, there were a few, I am almost certain you were not among them.

Oh c'mon 2-piper. Some of us just like to tease and pull each others chains once in a while. I for one know you can't be all that bad. After all, you do live in the heart of Tennessee Walking Horse country. You do know it is the only horse that God put his whole heart and soul into, don't you? So, do they still have the Celebration in Shelbyville?

Can we get a few more pictures of Robert's Model 21??? That should put everyone in the right state of mind!!!
All the best

The words of Walt should give everyone the right perspective. I like NIDs but 21s are great guns. All of us like guns that that we like and tend to be sensitive about them. I personally have 5 21s and enjoy them immensely. Doubles vary a ton and 21s are not expection. I can see a person getting different perceptions of 21s from different guns. My 20 gauge custom is only 6 pounds 6 ounces and a delight in the fields. My trap skeet is over a pound more and does not seem as agile. It of course was never meant to be. So like Walt says like what you like, express your opinion in a way that demonstrates knowledge and kindness and be helpful to each other. Trust me guys the people outside the world of doubles far, far outweight us and we have to stick together no matter what we own. I own NIDs as well by the way and think they are fun. All of them are great in their own way.

Kind regards, HuntersDad

Boss&Co. owners are arrogant, M21 owners are everyday people who keep theirs in a pickem-up truck!

Well said, HD.

Jimmy;

Agreed, I do love to tease & pull chains myself, & it's for sure many 21 chains swing low & are easy to pull & with great effect . There is however one place I draw the line, I "Do Not" use the name of "God" in a joking manner. That is something everyone has to decide for themselves, but in my mind I consider it blasphemy so you will not find me making such remarks. God created the Horse, Man through selective breeding developed the TN Walking Horse. My dad was not a big time breeder but most of his life had some around with lineage back to some of the early Allen lines. I rode them quite a bit tending to the catle on the farm as was growing up, but for recreation preferred walking & carrying a dbl shotgun.

Ok enough talk how about some pictures!!!
All the best

Okay, Okay, treblig, but for those that are not M21 fans, this could get a tad boring...

Pics should be fairly self-explanatory. The brown leather-faced pad is one of the lesser pad treatments Winchester would do at the factory upon request (although this one’s a re-do with the top spur left on).

As mentioned earlier, the factory beavertail is the older kidney-pattern style; the thinner field-style forearm is also a beavertail but pared down to weigh 4 oz. less (i.e. gun wgt. of 7 lbs. 13 oz. versus 8 lbs. 1 oz.)

Overall, the gun has made for a great SC piece over the years with its field dimensions & 30” barrels still factory choked at IC & IM.

Turns out that it has one odd notation on the factory inspection sheet that accompanied the Cody letter stating that the pistol grip was mistakenly shaped too open with a length of 4-1/8” from face of trigger to front edge of grip cap. It also stated that the ‘standard’ dimension for that at the time was 4.0”, and the inspection sheet mentions that approval needed to come from higher up the Winchester food chain before it could be released - as such - to retailers Abercrombie & Fitch. One wouldn't think an 1/8" to be all that big a deal, but it apparently was to Winchester back then. I personally like it this open, it's almost a semi-pistol grip, (as shown in the photo), and wouldn’t mind were it even more so. Stock dimensions of the gun remain at 1-5/8” x 2-5/8” x 14-1/4”. With that, enough.....

Hope you enjoy the photos, in spite of the glare.

Robert

Great looking gun, Robert. Does it have a grade stamped on the frame? Why did you remove the kidney pattern beavertail?
My straight grip 16ga. Skeet Grade has the kidney pattern.

Thanks, Don. It is roll stamped 'Trap' immediately forward of the triggerplate screw.

As for switching out forends (only for the present), I've just always liked the feeling of being more connected to the barrels themselves with my pointing hand when shooting SxS's. The kidney pattern forend is appreciably wider and deeper than the slimmer beavertail, although my photo doesn't show this all that well from the underside. I'd prolly be just as happy with a splinter forend on this gun actually, as a personal preference.

I've had the pleasure of shooting a friend's M21 in 16ga. with a beavertail as yours, and to me, it feels a lot less cumbersome than it does in a twelve.

Robert

I would never joke about God either, 2-piper. But I have also heard that "On the seventh day, God created the Colt." Heston always said, "From my cold dead hands." I'd rather go out riding a Walking Horse, totin' a 21 with a Colt on my side. Now that would be heaven.

My God of love, compassion, decency hasn't anything against jokes as long as they are not mean and mischievous and at another's expense. Faith is so personal that I don't write and talk about God but I don't consider those who relate to him as referred to here as profane or sacrilegious.

King;
I did not judge anyone, I stated everyone would have to make their own decisions. I simply personally feel "IF" I were to Say God's favorite gun was a Lefever, I would be using his name in vain. I merely stated how I felt so anyone wanting to impress me with their gun would know "How Not To". Obviously Jimmy W didn't care, but that's his problem.

Miller - I think Jimmy's light-hearted comment was harmless. My own was inappropriately personal, and I apologize for giving offense. Jay

Charlie;
You said nothing that offended me, you were correct I was lumping all 21 owners as a group because of a small minority I had encountered. I did & do appoligize for this.
Incidently the gun pictured which started the whole thread is indeed a very nice example of gunmaking & of which the owner should be justifiably proud.

This is one helluva board. It's a good board. I like hanging around good men.

King,

You are right. It is good to see adults who are capable of honest dialogue.

Pete

Well, if I offended anyone I really apologize. My comments were only meant in humor. I know that the good Lord certainly does have a good sense of humor. Why else would I be here?

Thanks Robert!!!
All the best

Wow Dave this thread sure has gone awry..... Did you ever get an answer? How have the Grouse God's treated you this season? I'm almost glad it's over Saturday, this Winter crap sure has taken the fun out of it.