It would be of great help if I could get some idea of the value of this fine piece,...I know it's a tricky question but I value the opinions on this board and I have to come up with fair price....I looked at a few and the prices are all over the map,...
The gun is like is like NEW!! 12 bore Monte Carlo B, 30"bbls,extractors....not a mark on it!...stunning wood!
made in 1901???...........I almost fell over when I opened the case,.....all replies welcome
Thanks
CJ
That's not a Nimrods gun...It's only got 2 birds Lowell.
I'd say between 5 & 6 grand would be a fair price....maybe more with the original case. Wouldn't you like to kick the guy that put those sling swivels on it ?
jOe:
Just how many examples do you think are floating around in this condition? I think you need to make a serious re-appraisal here.
Jim
I rate it like this. Scott brand name has Brand Value three (BV3). The "B" designates this model as a B grade gun - Original Quality grade three (OQ3), except there must be some adjustment of the lack of ejectors. The Current Condition level looks to be one (CC1) - pristine, assuming the photos are for real and this is not a very good refinish. So, BV3-OQ4-CC1 = $8000. If it was an ejector gun it would go BV3-OQ3-CC1 = $10,500. $2500 may be too big a ding for the ejectors. Also, this grade gun in this level (apparently per the photos) is very rare. You might want to give it another 10% - 20% for very rare condition. I have noticed that very high condition guns are doing better than my predicitions at some auctions.
Hope that helps some. There have been a couple of Monte Carlo "B" guns in recent UK auctions - the catalogue archives can be researched. Let me know if you need more on this - time is limited right now, so it may take several days.
To find such a fine gun in that condition is a dream. It is a nightmare for me, as I will not be the owner.
I have to agree with Rocketman that 8K to 10K is a realistic asking. As a private sale, the 8K would be fair to both parties. I think I would do what any gentleman would do and take along a 25 year old Macallum Single Malt to show that the new home of this treasure is owned my a man of good taste.:}
Best,
John
I just posted what I had saw a few sell Monte Carlo B's sell for. I don't see 10 grande in front of me.
I just hope the beauty is over skin deep....have you measured the bores ?
I can't tell from the pictures is it a 2 & 1/2" gun ?
There was no requirement to stamp chamber length on Brit guns until 1925. Odds are very strong that one is indeed a 2 1/2" gun.
I think the value of that gun depends on where you are. I made a very good buy on an Army & Navy sidelock nonejector in England a number of years ago, simply because the Brits think sidelock nonejectors are somewhat odd ducks. Any Brits present can speak up, but I think the price would take more of a hit in England because of the lack of ejectors than it would in the States. Canada . . . not sure how it would work up there.
My Thoughts are it is a VERY well done re colour case hardening job. I note that the Hinge pin cap was not hardened in place nor does the color of the fore end iron match the body. Normally the fore end iron is case colored at the same time OR Blacked, this appears neither. The acid test would be to remove the fore end iron and look at the underside. this will show the original finish. If it is a very good re finish How would this affect the value given earlier by a poster. ( Rocketman ?)
The cc caught my eye, as cc should be, in my opinion. So many are dissolving phantasmagorias, jack-o-lanterns.
I think Hugh is right on the money. The forend iron is not right and the checkering on the forend is showing some slight marks. Maybe just natural wear but for this condition the checkering should reflect the same amount of originality.
JMHO, Gordon
This is a fascinating thread for me. I am learning so much from our discussion and the good pics.
I notice all the screws, save one, appear to be without color. The trigger guard shows wear not commensurate with the case color. Some of the screws show evidence that they have been removed and the barrel flats show wear also not commensurate with the cc.
The finish on the stock is commensurate with the cc and has been redone IMHO.
Beautiful gun, C.J.
To Joe, Rocketman, Italian SXS,John Mann and L Brown.....thank you for your input, it's much appreciated.
The pictures were taken in someone's office and you must take into consideration that my heart was pumping and hands were considerably shaky!!....I will keep you posted and will produce better pictures when the transaction is completed.
I removed the pictures because the thread is unfortunately starting to head in a speculative direction and although I value everyone's opinion and expertise I am not in a position to have the originality of something that does not belong to me questioned at this point in time.......You can all chime in when I produce better pictures
respectfully
CJ
The deal is DONE!!!.......better pictures to follow
CJ
Mr. Lomas has an excellent eye, I tend to agree with him.
Steve
I never said He didn't,......as a matter of fact I said I respectfully valued everyone's opininon and expertise
CJ
C.J., on the other hand, that gun shows little wear on the barrels, trigger guard, and the sharp corners of the wood. I would like to see the receiver flats and standing breech to observe the wear there, too. Finally, that is a fine gun and a wonderful Christmas package.
I'm aware that chamber length wasn't marked. I couldn't make out the proof in the pictures.
Was it 1 & 1/8 or 1 & 1/4 oz ?
CJ:
Let me also add that you've got a fine gun there. I know there's issues with the "Brand Value" rating because Scott built guns in various price ranges.
However: I don't think they made ANY compromises in there top quality offerings. Be happy wuth your new acquisition!
Jim
CJ:
Let me also add that you've got a fine gun there. I know there's issues with the "Brand Value" rating because Scott built guns in various price ranges.
However: I don't think they made ANY compromises in there top quality offerings. Be happy wuth your new acquisition!
Jim
Joe, it was neither: MAXIMUM. That was a proofmark used from 1896-1904. It wasn't until the proof laws were changed in 1904 that shot charge was required. And that MAXIMUM marking can come in very handy for dating guns from that period, when SN data isn't available on the gun you're inspecting.
I could've swore Oz's were marked...maybe we'll get to see it again.
I'm still puzzled as to why the pictures were removed.
Joe 1 1/4 oz,..Maximum, will post better pics soon
Don't worry, CJ, case colors are original on this gun, but you need to re-blue these screw heads, they look like replacement.
Congrat upon your new buy
That's interesting: shot charge AND "maximum". Wonder if that's because it's heavier than the standard 1 1/8.
That would more than likely make it a 2 & 3/4" gun...that in my opinion would increase the value.
Original 70mm chambers on in proof English gun NEVER decrease it's value. In fact, they enhance it's value very much. Lots of folks like Winchester Extra Light Target loads some Walmarts sell!
I assume nobody is stupid enough to buy shells at $ander $ountain!
Jagermeister:
Do you happen the know the pressure levels for these Winchester Light Target loads? They are potentially just the ticket for my older doubles as I don't reload shotgun shells.
Jim
Sorry for being late to the party but where are the pics of the gun????????. I have a Monte Carlo B SLE pigeon gun circa 1909 that
is my favourite sporting clays gun. Great firearm!! Good luck with yours. Please re-post pics if you can. Cheers.
Oops, I meant Extra Light Target Loads (Walmart in Mechanicsville even had some of those puny subsonic ones with pic of feather on front of the box). The ones with slivery feather on front of the box are a bit too wimpy for my taste. Look, I shot 4 boxes of WELTLs out of my Remi 31 with AL frame (it's marked 12GA for 2&3/4 shells or shorter) that unlike 870 does not lock into steel barrel extension. There was no damage and I'm happy to report no fillings fell out of my jaw.
I don't know what avg. gp is, but I'm sure it's well below ceiling value of 650bar allowed for std. Euro 70mm field loads.
On the other hand some of those 65mm 'Super Duper' 1300+fps English game loads will kick the snot out of you, and they aren't likely to be of lower pressure than WELTLs.
HL - The range I'd see for it if restored would be BV3-OQ3-CC4 = $4100 down to BV3-OQ4-CC5 = $2400. The OQ grade would depend on how much you ding the lack of ejectors. The CC level would depend on whether you deemed the restoration very, very good and were willing to pay a bit more for that level of work. The issue for restoration is always and forever, "What was it like before restoration/why did it need restoring?" Remaining finish gives us strong clues as to the use and care a gun has had. It gets much harder/more uncertain to "place" the gun when the condition clues are gone. And that ususally shows up as a price ding.
any chance of seeing photos, i have a monte carlo B i think it is 1892 damascus bbls.my favourite gun thanks mc
Pressure . . . if you don't reload, I'd go for the Federals currently being marketed by Midway. Pressure is something in the neighborhood of 5-6,000 psi. Especially designed for vintage guns.
Wasn't it nice of Don to explain, in one sentence (OK, three sentences), why restored guns are worth less than honest field used guns? Of course, it will fly right over the heads of those who are in the seller's chair. The buyers will hear what they want to hear.
Larry, I looked at the Federals on the Midway site and cannot decide which low pressure product you are refering to. Which item is the low pressure shell ? Thanks, Daryl
Here's the link..
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=417403&t=11082005It's been common practice for years for English guns to be refreshed without taking a big nose dive in value like American guns do.
The sling swivels bug me more than anything else about the gun...but I figure the guy is buying the gun to use...not to collect dust.
Joe's got it, Daryl.
The Brits are not as picky about "restoration" as we are, mainly because it was common practice--especially so for higher grade guns--to go into the shop after the season for a bit of "freshening up". American collectors have much more of a mania about "original condition".
Hello all,
I have taken many good high resolution shots which I'm editing at the moment conditions were great,...overcast and lots of snow on the ground,great natural light,.... will post very shortly.
Here are a few details.
30" bbls,the mirror bores mike at .733"/.733",..in Proof for 12b choked .003"R/.032"L 2 3/4" chambers,... bbls weigh 3 lbs 9 oz
Back soon with pictures
CJ
Are the forcing cones original ?
Jagermeister
Here's data from actual pressure testing:
Winchester Trap Load 3 Dr.Eq. 1 1/8 oz. 1,202 fps 9,600 psi
Winchester Xtra-Lite Target Load 1 oz WAAL12 1189 fps 8000 psi
Yes Joe they are,...and the chamber rim diameter is tight(cut to older shell rim dimensions) vitage Super X shells drop right in but the new stuff will not,....no big deal but a good indication it has not been touched
Won't be long now!
Looks like she's lead a good life.
You shouldn't be showing her naked inards....EDM might take offence.
That's Grand Prix de Monte Carlo all the way. That is display gun only, ie it's way to nice und minty to shoot. Let me HELP you! DO NOT TAKE APART WHAT IS NOT BROKEN OR.........
Wow - that's a very nice Monte Carlo B.
It's amazing how well made that gun is, especially when you consider that that was a mid-grade gun for Scott. I've seen recent, brand new H&H Royals and Purdeys that aren't as well made as your gun.
Look at how nice the wood-metal fit is on the forend tip and how tight the metal-metal fit is where the lockplates fit into the action. When I remember that that work was done by all by hand, I'm even more impressed.
Congratulations.
OWD
Wonderful gun. Your photos are great for this type of "story". Do you know have a better opinion on the case coloring ?
Daryl,..are you asking me? or is your question directed towars the fellows that believed the gun was refinished?...I kew what I had all along, I just didn't want people to base their opinion on my first set of lousy pictures.
I also have another gun very symilar to this one,...a P.Webbley, that's undergoing complete restoration,...been working on it for the last 5 years,...it's at the metal finishing stages CC & blacking/ bluing is all that I have left to do on the gun...maybe I'll post some pics of it in the white
CJ
Claudio, that is a beauty! But isn't all this picture taking keeping you away from the work bench
That should help make it a Merry Christmas.
C J, I didn't know there was a consensus on the case colors. I guess I was asking you after your good look at it. It seemed odd to me to redo the case colors and not the other metal. It is a super gun.
I don't know guns as well as those contributing here. It's the cc that draws me to a closer look and I think I can see a particular glow rising from a Christmas winter sky 1,000 miles west of here---yours, not the W&C Scott's!
What a beauty. Great pictures too, you should consider offering photography lessons to some dealers.
I don't know, I think it's pretty original. We know the wood has been worked on a bit (forend, checking in the wrist), so someone has touched it up here and there.
Here are some others to compare it to:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11655http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=87736279OWD
Just taking a little break Mark!!....your Parker is almost done
Thanks OWD,.... I saw the two guns on the links you posted before I started the post, that's what prompted my origianal quetion about values being all over the map,...there is a couple more out there at twice the Cabela's price
PS;...you should have left your post the way it was before you edited(i read it)...it is all original,...if the guy that did the two little repairs had done any more work to it he would for sure have butchered it!
CJ
Thanks King,....the snow is starting to melt around the house!!
Storm GSP,......just a simple fuji 5.2 megapix,..a little tripod and the correct light
CJ
CJ, Excuse me if it was mentioned earlier, but what is the weight of the gun??? Terry
Terry,I don't think weighed the whole thing yet,...bbls weigh 3 lbs 10 oz,...I'll go to the shop and put it on the scale for you
CJ
That piece at Cabela's is listed at fair price. It must be those 26" barrels most dread.........Nice gun if you like English guns.
When it comes to SxS's are there really any others...
Sure, when it comes to hammer guns made prior to WWI or earlier there is nothing else, but with the newer stuff I'm not so sure ........
I didn't know they made new SxS's...
You know, the ones with "hidden" hammers.
PS. I'm not talking about W&C Scott just SxS shotguns in general.
CJ, That's a nice weight for an 1 1/4 oz. gun. Mine comes in at
7 lbs 9 oz. Is the word CHOKE stamped on both barrels?? Curious to know if your right barrel has been opened up.It appears to have been built as a pigeon gun and if so would have had serious choke in both barrels.Mine did have but a previous owner opened it up to
10 and 25 thou which actually suits me fine as I mainly use it for sporting clays and occasionally for pheasants and ducks.Monte Carlo
B's were usually built as pigeon guns but could be ordered with game dimensions,chokes,brrl lengths and weight and in various gauges. A very nice find, enjoy. Terry
Looks Lovely ...nice weight for a clay games gun with 1oz loads.
On that on pic # 14,the side veiw of forend...whats the deal with the two pins & what looks like some kind of filler/Bondo type stuff?
Is it just a tiny repair?
Grand bit o wood, eh???
Shoot her in good health matey
cheers
Franc
Terry the gun appears not to have been touched,...look at pic#9 the choke stamp is on the left bbl only,..it surpriced me as well I thought for sure they would both be tight.
Yes Frank Otte,...it's had a couple of less than desirable small repairs that I will address in time,...yeah,the wood is superb!
Will look after it!... for sure
CJ
