I have a few (and collecting more) field grade shotguns. Im in the process of restocking, repairing, re casing & bluing all of them. They will be sold when complete. This is not a restoration, Im not attempting to fool anyone or make them look like a factory shotgun.
I have struggled with how to price these shotguns when complete. I just dont know what the market will bear. For example. Coming up soon is a FW LC Smith with ejectors. Pistol grip english walnut stock, factory dimensions, choked m/f (IIRC), leather recoil pad, steel grip cap. Its a really nice little shotgun.
Those of you that have more experience with pricing this type of work please chime in!!! Many thanks!!
Bill, it seems in different parts of the country how some used shotguns sell.
I recently bought a 1927 Ideal Grade L.C. with ejectors, 28 " barrels mod/full good wood decent bluing. The stock had a crack from the top of the side locks to the tang on both sides. It had been repaired but the glue line is reddish. I'm sure that it could have been repaired nearly invisible with the glues we have.
I paid $500.00 and I thought that was a steal. The side locks are shinny, but the engraving is still crisp. There has been talk and documentation that some guns were sent out and had the works nichol plated.
You may not be attempting to fool anyone, but your not doing them any great favors either. A less than restoration refurbishing adds little if any value. JMO.
JDW, the side locks and frame are shinny because the case color has faded and worn off.
So you are saying I should leave these shotguns as they are? Broken, beat up, and rusted? The FW I mentioned above was literally a box of parts. No stock at all.
As long as it's not a restoration, why the factory dimensions? Why not more shootable, modern dimensions?
As for what the market will bear, you'll have to put them up on an auction website and see what they bring.
I know of a factory refinished field grade NID 12ga that's been sitting in a shop for several months now priced at $1300. Gun is stamped "R" which Walt tells me was Ithaca's stamp for "redone". Looks like a 98% gun with case color, wood and blue all near perfect.
These guns will sell as shooters but not collectors.
Bill, I have two comments but am not a restorer or upgrader. Recently got a 1937 NID 12 field. Even W. Snyder, who has plenty of experience to know, said the gun had 75% case color. The breech wall still had bright color and the firing pins were as round and full as globes. But. . . , however little use the gun had, previous owner apparently decided he needed a stock scrub and refinish and thoroughly radiused or dubbed over the stock head panels in the process. Somewhat more careful about the wood to metal and wood to pad. Gun must have been (and probably is) pretty much the most that we can expect in a field grade as the owner had it consigned at just shy of 1K and took a bit less. If it had been a Fox (graded or Sterlingworth) and someone had carved out a strait-hand stock for it, I wouldn't have been surprised at 17-2100 asking. I think a lot of Johnny-come-yesterdays (I am nearly one myself) are buying the name in lower grade, revised condition and I don't think the "name" in the lower grades is Ithaca or Elsie. But it could be soon if we don't go "unleaded" and interest is maintained. Lot of "if"s! I doubt you can expect cosmetic revision to part the knowledgable from their money. First-time buyers--probably. Look at the refurb catastrophes instigated by Mr. Good. They apparently sell for more than he gave. As "remachinable" raw material in the hands of S. D. Hughes, maybe the sky's the limit.
jack
JDW,
That gun is not nickel plated. Nickel plating is very yellow and easily identified. I have one that looks identical, Ideal grade and same shiny finish. Note the grayness of the metal. Look at a modern K80 Krieghoff standard grade. That's nickel plating. Very yellow. Nickel does not have to be satin like a K80, it can be polished as well.
Bill, I do what you are doing all the time. Saving an old gun from certain death. I use the 50% of book rule of thumb. Everybody says that when you re-anything on an old gun it automatically makes it a 50% gun. So I take 10% -20% guns and make them 50% guns. I sell them as shooters of course and the new owners know that.
So you are saying I should leave these shotguns as they are? Broken, beat up, and rusted? The FW I mentioned above was literally a box of parts. No stock at all.
You ask about value. I'm just saying that the cost of the refurbish is more than the gain in value(money wise) of the gun. A "GOOD" refurbish to bring an old gun back to service is a good thing. It just doesn't mean that the gun is worth a lot more money.
I think there is a market for refinished/restored American doubles.If well done, who would not want and Original Elsie compared to the new one. People want a piece of history for their family. With the limited supply of old Quality American doubles, it is also a charitable endevor. The key is it must be Well Done. If the Quality is there, the buyer will be also, and if he perseives value, the prices will continue to rise.
Craig
Don, I have other L.C.'s where the cc is worn and it doesn't look like this. If it was polished, the engraving is still sharp. Also Hunter Arms had a process to weatherprooof the receivers, I don't think anybody knows what it looks like.
Chuck, earlier in my career we had a small plating set up and I did some plating, zinc, nichol, etc. and I nichol plated some parts and yes the nichol does have a yellowish cast, but after 80 years, what would it look like?
The dark spot is just a shadow.
There's a market for restored guns as there is for aircraft and cars.The premium is always on professional, consummate skills. Restoration and nurturing of history and old skills is more important than reproductions any day.
Bill,
I buy a used hammer double or two every year. I look for good, solid shooters. I will and do look at refurbished guns BUT, I give them even closer scruteny than ones that have no indication of having been refurbished. Reason is simple -- some refurbishing makes the gun less safe as a shooter -- too much reaming of bores to remove pits, lengthing chambers, removing dents, poor "repairs" to locking lugs, hinge pins, etc. Some refurbished and/or repaired guns get a solid approval because the work was done well -- I am considering one such gun now, one made in 1890.
I have also seen guns with really poorly done repairs, so poorly as to decrease the margin of safety, or so inapproprate to the gun as to make it undesirable to me (such as recutting net checkering to diamond checkering). Guns with case hardening redone are avoided entirely, mostly because I don't like case colors and partly because I don't want to take the time to assess possible warping or loss of strength caused by inapproprate recasing.
Niklas
Bill, I have no idea what the market will bear, but it does seem that at any given time, prices can swing at least a factor of 2 if not more based on the whims of whomever happens to be shopping.
What I might suggest is selling them for whatever you think is a fair price given what you have put into them in time and materials. That is something a whole lot easier for you to calculate.
Brent
"Guns with case hardening redone are avoided entirely, mostly because I don't like case colors and partly because I don't want to take the time to assess possible warping or loss of strength caused by inapproprate recasing."
My sentiments, too. When I lost my benchmark SW in capsize and retrived it from six fathoms of salt water six months later, I sent it to a consummate gunsmith to restore it except for case-colouring.The gun was no longer original anyway.
When it's passed down to my gunning nephew sans cc, it's part of the story we share of the time we went under in a tide-rip an hour before daylight during a snow squall 200 metres from a rocky North Atlantic Shore
JDW,
The gun in the picture looks exactly like my FWE Ideal. Very shiny, obviously polished very well before engraving and casehardening. Mine is not plated for sure. Nickel 80 yrs old will still be yellow. I can't conclusively tell it's not yellow in the pics, but it sure looks like bare polished casehardened steel just like my gun. Shiny finish doesn't mean plating necessarily. Nor does a plated surface necessarily end up shiny. Shiny, whether plated or not requires polishing. With plating, it can be done before somewhat and if a really mirror finish is needed, polishing after plating may be needed. I'm still of the opinion yours is not plated.
Bill,
I'm of the opinion that a restocked gun with either new metal finishes or old will be a crap-shoot as to whether or not it will be able to bring the ROI to be worth the investment (money/time). The exceptions to that can be found in some cases, but not one that I can think of if you are paying the likes of Turnbull, SDH or others of equal. Now if you are doing the work and you don't plan to sell them, that's a different story.
I'm going to have about $3700 in a completely resto'd Parker 12g #1 framed, GH damascus. It will be as nice or nicer than when new. Will it be worth it? To me, yes. Could I sell it for that to one of our members? I doubt it. But then I doubt anyone could find one as nice with original everything, let alone could I afford it, nor could I shoot it well with the 3" drop.
Those sure would!
But what would have have to sell the for if you were making a living doing it? 3x that much? 5x?
Nice work there.
Brent
Mike,
I dont want to sound argumentative but I dont buy it. There is no way there is less than $1500 in those shotguns. Unless of course you throw out labor cost.
Less that $1,500 in each gun?! I guess it is if you say so, but I'd sure like to know how. Beautiful.
Mike, I want to know how you can redo a gun like that with that wood for $1,500. Jake
Well lets see, somewhere's around $300-$500 for wood like that, $135 to Color Case, about $10 in materials to blue, the cost of a basket case gun and lots of time, I can see where you can possibly have $1500 in a gun like that but I sure can't see doing all that and not wanting to make at least $1500+ more for doing it.........
If I could find wood for 300-500 that looked that good, I'd buy some. If those are $1500 in the last year or so, man did Mike score!
Well it was kind of a guess, I have seen some pretty nice stuff go on ebay in that range, sometimes with a small fault that would keep a professional stockmaker from wanting it but could still turn out pretty presentable as those guns definitely are. OH YA, and for the record I want to be first in line for a 20ga of any of the major makers that is done up like the examples you posted for $1500......
dblfever,
Yeah, that'd be a find... a 20g in any of the majors for $1500 usually means it's not real pretty. But, I did pay $1800 for that LC 20g 32", ejector Trap Grade in 20g and I have $300 in the wood plus $350 in the inletting. Gonna be sweet for a $2500 gun...if I finish it.
I did a Fgr 20ga Lefever last year and am into it for barely over 2k, French walnut not quite what is pictured above but very nice and would have been less but had to have the ribs relayed and I am not up to that myself so that was allmost $400 for that and just under $400 to have the wood machined were the biggest hits. And lots of hours.......
dblfever..........who'd you get to relay ribs for 400?
The only American classic sxs not affected by cosmetic enhancement is Winchester Mod. 21. I think there is more redos out there then ones with original factory finish.
dblfever..........who'd you get to relay ribs for 400?
There is a stockmaker/customizer not far from me who has a buddy who did it for me, not sure if he does it as a biz or not.
dblfever..........who'd you get to relay ribs for 400?
From his 2006 price list....
"RESOLDERING:
Price includes bore and choke measurements, slow heat disassembly, regulation, reassembly, hand polish and slow rust blue. We are not responsible for barrels that are unsafe to be soldered once disassembled. There will will be additional charges for ribs that need to replaced."
Resolder and reblue ...$385
After a famous SxS guy butchered my barrels, I contacted another famous SxS shop and asked them if they could relay the ribs. They said "Why don't you take them to Giacomo?...that's where we'll send them."
OK. The fact is, the purchase price for each of those projects really was <$1500. Maybe I didn't play fair, but the rules really weren't spelled out very well. Bill Soverns seems to be talking about making a decent wage at it. I don't. I do my own stockwork. These are personal guns I can use and enjoy and if I sold them for a pittance someday, I'd still think it was money well spent. I never buy a gun with the intention of reselling it for more, but I'm pretty sure I will on these.
Craig said it well....
I think there is a market for refinished/restored American doubles.If well done, who would not want and Original Elsie compared to the new one. People want a piece of history for their family. With the limited supply of old Quality American doubles, it is also a charitable endevor. The key is it must be Well Done. If the Quality is there, the buyer will be also, and if he perseives value, the prices will continue to rise.
Craig
The first gun I completed 5 yrs ago. The Fox cost me $900, the blank $350, $135 to turn it, $135 for colors and I slow rust blued the barrels. Actually, I lied already....invested $1520. But it's a 30" 16ga...I was ahead of the curve
The second is a 20ga Fox I bought 15yrs ago for $800; the metal had been freshly 100% recolored. I put $400 into the turned blank.
The third one is a current work in progress. Being a 12ga Fox, I picked it up for $400....they're out there. This blank was $450, but you can have xtrafancy feathercroth black walnut for $250. You can stll get them turned for $150. You can have all the metal professionally polished and refinished (including disassembly/reassembly) as I will, for $650. It's a 32" 12 ga.....laugh if you want, but I'm still ahead of the curve
I only wish I'd bought that new Hemi 'Cuda in 1970 for <$5000.....you know, the one that just sold for $2 million.
I am going to chime in here...
As already mentioned, I think there is a considerable market for refurbished field grade classics that have modern dimensions and modern appeal.
For example, I bet that someone who could find and refurbish old Foxes, Elsies, NIDs, and Parker field grade guns with new bluing on 28-30" barrels, that are on-face, and still have the original action patina or perhaps even new case colors, and a new stock straight grip conversion with modern dimensions would be able to sell those guns at a decent price.
The question for me is access to old guns at reasonable prices and some kind of stock milling machine like Rich Cole's that would keep the cost and handwork of restocking the gun down. My guess is that the total cost of the original gun, re-blueing, any action work, and the new stock could not exceed $1500 as previously stated and that the gun would have to sell for $2500 to make it worth anyone's while. The reason I personally have not embarked upon a project like that of my own is I just don't know if that is truly possible...
But I do know I would like to have one like that! Tried to buy a Fox from Silvers like that, but was a day late... And those are so real beauties pictured above in this post!
WOW! Those are stunning! You must have near the price of an original gun in wood alone.
I have been watching this thread with great interest because I have re-furbished a couple of guns and am in the process of doing another. By the way, I define re-furbish as stripping and re-oiling the wood, replacing hideous recoil pads those that are period correct, a total cleaning, lubrication and recut checkering. I am taking the next step with my current project by having it re-case colored and the small parts either re-cased or blued (as the case may be)
I know that I will most likely never be able to recover my total investmet, at least not right away. But that is not why I am doing it. I am doing it for me. Because I love the damned thing and I want it to be able to show it off at shooting events. If I lose some dollars along the way...... oh well. After all, I do this as a means of relaxation and hobby, not as a means of investment. I have enough pressure and stress at my profession, I don't need it in my hobby.
I like Steve's attitude. I feel the same way. I seem to be drawn to guns that need work. Sometimes the work needed is the reason others won't buy it.
Here's a couple redone guns that I found after someone else had put a lot of work into. I like both very much. That little Nitro 410 has taken a lot of wild birds lately, including a wild SD phez a couple yrs ago. The Crass has taken wild quail and both have been great clay game fun.
I too suscribe to Steve and Chucks "minimalist" approach to renovation because I think it brings a shotgun back into presentable condition without destroying the collectible value. I think this approach is appropriate when I shotgun is in tatty condition but I also have no problem with a total renovation as described earlier in this thread when the gun is a wreck. While the result will have no collector value at least it's useful life has been extended.
Jim
Jim,
I'm of the opinion that a total restoration, faithful to the original, will have some collector value , especially if very few good examples are available. I believe as these guns age further, the faithful restorations will increase in value as well. But, of course, all guns are going up as well.
Chuck:
You may very well be right regarding the collector value of totally restored firearms. I guess it will depend on how our hobby continues to evolve. As we all know great value is placed on totally restored cars in the collectible and classic field.
On the other hand; stripping the finish and totally renovating a piece of 18th Century furniture is frowned on in that collector community.
A not so well kept secret is many of the Lugers seen in pristine condition haven't been that way since day one. They used to call this fakery but I'm not sure what they call it today.
Jim
My .02 is that most of the old guns we find should be minimally restored. I mean, first things first. You HAVE to clean them up and stop any rust or pitting or other corrosion. Some may have to be blued. Stocks should be repaired and in some cases replaced. But, if you can essentially give it a boost along its way and still preserve what it was/is that is a good thing.
At some point, a gun is trashed enough that there is no sense in trying to "preserve" it or "be faithful" to what it was.
I personally think "project guns" which are going to be essentially rebuilt, like a blazing Phoenix arising from the flames, should indeed come from sound but trashed guns. The barrels have to be good enough support the project but if a gun is going to be annealed, newly engraved, restocked etc. then it should be one which can't be rehabbed.
Now the real issue for all of us who love these old guns is what is going to happen when the powers that be ultimately outlaw lead shot. It makes me shudder.
Regards to all, Jake
My .02 is that most of the old guns we find should be minimally restored. I mean, first things first. You HAVE to clean them up and stop any rust or pitting or other corrosion. Some may have to be blued. Stocks should be repaired and in some cases replaced. But, if you can essentially give it a boost along its way and still preserve what it was/is that is a good thing.
At some point, a gun is trashed enough that there is no sense in trying to "preserve" it or "be faithful" to what it was.
I personally think "project guns" which are going to be essentially rebuilt, like a blazing Phoenix arising from the flames, should indeed come from sound but trashed guns. The barrels have to be good enough support the project but if a gun is going to be annealed, newly engraved, restocked etc. then it should be one which can't be rehabbed.
Now the real issue for all of us who love these old guns is what is going to happen when the powers that be ultimately outlaw lead shot. It makes me shudder.
Regards to all, Jake
I could not have said it better. We are looking for the same guns.
dblfever..........who'd you get to relay ribs for 400?
From his 2006 price list....
"RESOLDERING:
Price includes bore and choke measurements, slow heat disassembly, regulation, reassembly, hand polish and slow rust blue. We are not responsible for barrels that are unsafe to be soldered once disassembled. There will will be additional charges for ribs that need to replaced."
Resolder and reblue ...$385
After a famous SxS guy butchered my barrels, I contacted another famous SxS shop and asked them if they could relay the ribs. They said "Why don't you take them to Giacomo?...that's where we'll send them."
Mike I just checked his website and there's no mention of relaying ribs on doubles, does he still do it?
Yes, Giacomo's still relays and reblues for $385. Just talked to them last week.
Dan
Rob;
As you probably know, Giacomo is the head man and is a Perazzi guru. People who know and deal with Giacomo directly sometimes get a little different perspective of the services offered.
If you email them and ask for a price list, you'll get a prompt reply and find they do much more than service Perazzis. Even so, I suspect the list is not comprehensive; for instance, under barrel work, they list boring, polishing and correcting dents and bulges but don't mention choke/cone alterations which they've done for me in the past and I suspect they still do.
They are wonderful people to deal with and the only shop in the country I wholeheartedly endorse.
Thanks Mike, I have sent an email to Giacomo with my inquiry. I have an otherwise very good condition Lefever G Grade that has a ring bulge in the damascus barrels I'd like to have done.
At some point, a gun is trashed enough that there is no sense in trying to "preserve" it or "be faithful" to what it was.
I found a Model 1912 Tournament Grade with straight grip and solid rib for $150. It was a beater, but shootable. I put about $1400 into it in parts and professional labor, and I now have the best looking Tournament Grade 1912 I've ever seen. Of course, it's not original and I probably won't get my money out in this lifetime, but who cares? Old guns are like old cars. You are generally much better off buying one that someone else has dumped a pile of money into.
Old guns are like old cars. You are generally much better off buying one that someone else has dumped a pile of money into.
Ain't it the truth. I own a few beautiful guns that someone else put a bunch of money and time into. I have purchased them for a whole bunch less than it would cost to have the work done. But, I have my projects as well. I currently have two SWs back being stocked with Ken's man Boone. And when that is done the fun really begins.
And on we go.
Regards, Jake
From a gunamker's poitn of view, it is a good way to get very little for your labor. Making a gun to someone's specs is usually several times more profitable than building a spec gun and hoping it is what soemone wants. Now makers who are established and at the top of the field can do it and make money. But that is because these folks have spent years developing their skills and reputation, and their waiting list is years long.
I also am in 100% agreement with King et al that a gun that has been recased is a MAJOR turn off to me. I am firmly of the belief that a gun should only be recased when it is required for mechanical performance. CC'ing for "looks" is terrible in my view, and I will be very glad when this current fad of CC'ing any and everything will go away. If you need to reshape or engrave an action, then of course it will need to be recased. But if it was done just to ge "pretty colors" then for me the gun is worht less money.
Chuck,
What if you're ablebodied but feeble minded?
I bid $1500 !!!
Mike,
you had your chance along with everyone else...I had it at Ivory Beads for consignment at around $1800 about 2 yrs ago. Sorry bud
Then I started learning about loading for damascus guns and took it off the market. I now have three damascus guns, another which has been totally restored, a Parker #1, should arrive today. I'll post some pics later. 'Been takin that Yoshinoya erb. Seems to be working, my waistline is improving and no flashbacks of disco
.
What is Yoshinoya erb? Is this related to ROTGALMO or whatever the letters are?
Best,
Milt
Rob;
As you probably know, Giacomo is the head man and is a Perazzi guru. People who know and deal with Giacomo directly sometimes get a little different perspective of the services offered.
If you email them and ask for a price list, you'll get a prompt reply and find they do much more than service Perazzis. Even so, I suspect the list is not comprehensive; for instance, under barrel work, they list boring, polishing and correcting dents and bulges but don't mention choke/cone alterations which they've done for me in the past and I suspect they still do.
They are wonderful people to deal with and the only shop in the country I wholeheartedly endorse.
Got a quick reply from Giacomo today, but unfortunately it seems they won't do this work on damascus barrels. The search continues.
What is Yoshinoya erb? Is this related to ROTGALMO or whatever the letters are?
Best,
Milt
Milt,
Very closely related....
Chuck, nice gun and a nicer hat. What brand is it?
I have to confess that I have trouble shooting with a brimmed hat. I lift my head off the stock too much. More drop helps, but so does a pair of shears to reduce a cheap ballcap's brim by half.
Brent
Brent,
Looking back at that pic, I think that's a 4x Stetson Gus 4" brim with some "trail shaping". I have another Gus in black also. I have quite a number of hats and find that a good 100% beaver hat goes much longer on the trail or other uses than a cheaper production hat and can be good enough to go back in for restoration after many miles.
A lot of my friends have been buying from Mackey Hats
http://www.mackeycustomhats.com/ for a number of years now, with one friend probably having the record with them for hats bought; I'm guessing over 20. They are good hats, but that friend is hard on the equipment, very hard. He gives the old ones away to newbies. I bought a Rand hat from the MT outfit and it's a good hat too. I have one from Jackson Hole Hat that has good felt that has held up for many miles on the trail thru rain and sun but so-so quality of work.
Chuck,
They just opened one in Times Square. Haven't been there yet.
Chuck, who did those colors on the Crass?
Bill: Your restock of my old prewar merkel brought it from unusable, to beautiful. and its in a black walnut, modern finish.
from unuseable to functional. the functional value is always there, and if the metal is right, and the wood is bright,and the fit is tight, then it a matter of taste: like the 55 chevy's out there. some stock, some hopped. some just wore out.
I go function, form, fit, and fire.
now on the true collectors guns: do nothing more than needed, but do always oil and clean and iron out dents and hammer out dings. and reblue as needed to prevent rusting in the field.
Chuck, who did those colors on the Crass?
I'm guessing Turnbull, since the gentleman that did the resto uses Turnbull nowadays he tells me.
the gentleman that did the resto uses Turnbull nowadays he tells me
Would you mind mentioning who that gentleman is? I'm hoping you have someone local who does that quality work. Thanks.
Rp,
I would, but he specifically asked to remain anonomous. He agreed to do some work for me tentatively out of a growing friendship over the years. I believe he prefers to work on his own guns.
Chuck, shoot me an email if he is ever interested in taking in some new work. Thanks.
I just read the comments about some not liking to have guns re-case colored just for the looks. In my case, I strip and refinish stocks, just for the looks and if I am going through all that trouble, as well as having the action tuned, as well as some other "cosmetic" treatments, why not have it re-colored. I for one like the beauty of case colors that are fresh and vibrant.
Steve,
There are some horror stories about recasing. I have heard of warped frames and cracked frames. I have not personally experienced these things since I have only done one recase myself and own only a few that were recased when I bought them.
