It has Happened!!!!My piece of Geoffrey Boothroyd Real English String that I have been 'Hanging' Guns & Rifles in for the last 15 yrs, from the overhead hot-water pipe in my Workshop,(AKA,The Museum of Perpetual Mess"...went and Broke')The 2 yr old James Purdey & Sons 28b O/U that I was measuring the "Point of Balance" for this Discussion that has been'Percolating' on this DG/Shop for several wks.The Gun was on its way to the'Deck"(NON BOUNCE 50yr old Concrete)Usually my Old English Springer,Wellington' would be in his well padded basket underneath, but he recently 'Passed on to theFields & Covers where he can run to his Old hearts content.The 'Absolutely Pristeen Condition" Purdey O/U. Didnot reach Ground Zero!! My Beloved Significant Other' Eileen, who has been'Racheting in my Ear for months,Why dont you make a Proper Noose'with 13 Knots.because that 'Crappy bit of Scottish String is ready to break!!She just happened to be doing a 'Tea run"....and managed to catch the (Aprox Replacement Cost $130,000.00)'Little Bugger as it was "Falling Earthwards"....So no damage done,let the customer know the cost of a new piece of Scottish'Hemp" will be charged to his account.....Just joking!!So my question is to the 'Person who has planted the 'Seed' into several of my Clients Minds..I dont understand how a gun can be balanced "At the Trigger"? Its set to the rear of the"Cross-Pin" (British Gunmakers Term) "Hinge-Pin"(Others)I would like be able to explain to my Client,(Who I have just Re-Stocked/Re-Barreled his Pair of Boss 12b c 1880,Perks Pat.Side-Locks)why I willnot change the"Point of Balance" just because "A poster on Double GunShop has a Theory"!!In Anticipation of a Reply....CC/dt
I do bow, as will most, to the worthy one.
Best to you, my friend.
John
Great save. I bet a guy that shoots 130K gun doesn't have to wait for one to die to get their organs.
John, Stephen Hutton....Gunsmith Extrordinaire" was here Wed. is giving "Helping Hand" with "Waterlogged From Scottish Moors,Bogs.Flooded Land Rover, etc.Pair of Henry Atkin 12b's. Sure is nice to have someone working on the Bench with me who knows exactly the correct proceedure for 'Doing all this Stuff" That we Of the chosen few are cursed to do for the rest of our lives.....Oh to have had the opportunity of a College 4 yrs. instead of learning to eat French Walnut dust soaked in Youngs'303'....Beach Boys, Connie Francis.The Carpenters.....Jimmy H. Gratefull D.Gerry Mulligan, Brubeck.Pom-Poms.Back Seats of 59 Chevy,s..Such is life!!So John, next time you head East, give a"Bell"..dt.
Soon, my friend.
I hope to bring my Stormy friend with me and perhaps your Portsmouth helping hand will join us.
It will give this old man great pleasure.
As an aside---those with the many years of reading seem to wend their way to you that have breathed the dust. Hat in hand and pocket book open. Such is life and as it should be. Even Popes bowed before the da Vinci, Michelangelo, Donatello and Bernini art.
Few man have achieved such status. It is not reading that brought men such as you to the pennacle. It is God given talent, strength of ideal and a lust for greatness instead. Yep, few will have it written that they are/were great. I am pleased to have known one that is.
Best,
John
Jagermeister,
A guy who shoots $130,000 guns can buy his own organs.
There are hundreds for sale over here.
You should see the number of Methodist Chapels they are knocking down to build 'Housing Association' accomodation for our European Immigrants.
Does a guy with a $130,000 Purdey really want a Wurlitzer?????
Also why didn't he buy Joe Nickerson's 28 bores? Apparently they didn't go at first, but then went for a song.
Well now XC to get back to your question, I read all the multi-pages on that balance thread & don't really recall anyone stating the gun should "Balance" at the trigger. I do recall a very knowledgable poster saying he recommended "Measuring" the balance point from the trigger rather than the hinge pin, as the trigger is in a much more constant location in regards to ones hand than is the hinge pin, which of course varys acording to type of action (length of bar). If a short action boxlock & long action sidelock for instance both balamced "At the Hinge" they would have a totally diferent feel. On the other hand if they both balanced at the "Same Distance Forward" of the trigger (front in case of two) they would have a much more consistent feel. Amazing anyone has been succesful enough to be able to afford a 130K shotgun without being able to decipher reading. Tell your clients to learn basic reading skills before teling you how to build their shotguns.
Signed a "Redneck Hillbilly" but even I know how to read.
'Person who has planted the 'Seed'? Could this be me? I hope so. I'll answer the question anyway.
The gun balances where it balances until someone (with luck, a master such as yourself) adds, removes,or redistributes weight. The issue is reference point, not where it balances. You can reference to hinge pin, breech face, trigger guard, muzzle, butt, grip cap, stock oval and all points between. The reason for selecting (front) trigger as the reference point is to allow direct relevance to hand placement and to allow a consistant measurement among all types of guns. Pumps and autos don't have hinge pins, but they surely do have a balance point; could happen that a shooter would wish for commonality or comparison of balance between a pump and a break-open gun.
I would never tell someone the actual location of balance for his own guns. I will, however, tell him the best way to reference it. Your customer needs to work out with you what location of balance he really wants. I suggest that the two of you use distance in front of the (front) trigger. The average for 6 1/2# game guns is 4 1/2" from front trigger to tetter-totter balance point. That is near the hinge pin of many guns and not so close on others. I'd bet your customer has spent a fair sum of time and money on determining his desired stock dimensions. Have him spend a little time and, possibly, money on determining the handling characteristics he wants. For sure he should know desired weight and location of the balance point. If he wants to dig deeper, the he should learn desired swing efforts.
I hope it is clear that I do not recommend having the balance point at the trigger. I do recommend referencing balance point to the (front) trigger, just as LOP references the trigger. Everyone surely understands that the LOP reference from the trigger is not a recommendation that the butt be located at the trigger.
Please post back it there are remaining questions.
Rocketman, once again you are talking sense.Common sense we all know isn't common nowadays.
A friend of mine is obsessed with gunfit and balance, so much so that I believe his DT10 has had surgery every week for the past 3 months.
He had a gun similar to mine last year but was unhappy with the balance so he sold it and bought the DT10. Each week he holds my gun and opines he wished he had one that felt the same.He has failed to see that it is one of four that I use and each one he wishes he had.It has yet to register that I may have altered my guns to suit my desires.
The point I am trying to make is, balance and fit will always be down to the individual owner at the end of the day.
Keep on swinging.
solopian - clearly, you understand this issue. Thank you for the kind words.
Just as a shooter will have a prefered set of stock fit dimensions (or sets for differing shooting purposes), so will he have a set,or sets, of prefered handling parameters. Weight, balance (tetter-totter point), and mounted and unmounted swing efforts define the gun's dynamics. I continue to advocate what I find to be the most meaningful way of measuring and recording these parameters. Knowing the parameters of guns you like will give you a way to objectively tell someone else. Weight, balance, and swing efforts can be replicated. But, to replicate, you must first know what you are replicating. So, you have to measure.
Just a question, but does the artical by D. Travallion and Mike Stumbo in Shooting Sportsman have any relavance in this discussion. I like the writing but wonder about their thought of the breech face being the point from which to ballance a shotgun.
Best,
Ron
Rocketman,
I have tried to PM you but I can't get through.Missed your Spinner at The Vintagers.
Do you have any photographs and an explaination?
2 Piper & Rocketman, My email box seems to be filling with questions about this Balance subject! I have to admit I dont think I read the orig. post. Is there a way I could find it? Question...would the fact that a orig. 6lb8oz British Game Gun has had a 9oz Mercury Filled Recoil Reducer Installed to the Stock, Lose its "Pointability"..Client's Question not mine! cc/dt
XC - the recoil reducer will increase the gun's weigh, move its balance rearward (closer to the trigger), and increase both mounted and unmounted swing efforts. It should not affect stock fit, gripping area characteristics, aesthetics, or maker's name. Only your client will know if the gun has lost "pointability," because only your client knows exactly what "pointability" means to him. I'd guess that he is subjectively combining weight, balance and swings, with swing effort the big hitter.
What I can do is give you the following estimation of objective changes. Starting with an average game gun of 14 1/2" LOP, 6 1/2#. 4 1/2" balance, unmounted swing of 1.45, and mounted swing of 6.4. Adding the 9 oz reducer (assuming it has its balance point 3" forward of the butt, the gun now weighs 7# 1oz, the balance moves rearward to 3 1/8", the unmounted swing goes up to 1.73, and the mounted swing goes up to 6.46 (trivial amount). Except for the mounted swing, these are quite noticable amounts of change; weight up 10%, balance rearward 31%, and unmounted swing effort up 19%. Definitely take more muscle or more time to change where this gun points.
Does that answer your client's question? Additional questions?
Photo of the MOI machine. Bob weight on far left is hung over a table edge and drives the turntable with constant torque. A reed switch and magnet are set to trigger the stop watch as soon as the table starts to turn and to stop the watch on one revolution. MOI values are calibrated to time via bars of metal of known MOI.
RM. Thanks for reply. Montana, Thanks also. RM Now I remember you & and your'H G Wells'Time Machine at SandiKnowna' We all gathered at the Shooting Sportspeople's Booth. You 'Span...Spun..Spinned??? My Gun in the White....I even had your Machine here at The MoPM. Vic Ventors was trying to explain the "Principle of MOi". McIntosh & self have just been talking to a'Curious Reader"....I have his 11 lb Westley Richards .450 Nitro DB.He ask's' Have you evaluated a Rifle of this'Magnitude'?? I have increased the length with a 3/4" ebony L/P.and a 3/4" Kick-ezz'Padand Installed a "Merc" Recoil Reducer. It points like a shotgun,Recoil, about that of a 30-30. Have yet to find the POB'(Ran out of Ammo, Fired 11rds)Most Interested in this subject now!!!! cc/dt
Yep, the memory does come back with a bit of a jog.
This should get you in the ball park: Alex Henry Double Rifle BLE .475 #2 NE - bbls = 25.25", LOP = 14 3/4", weight = 11# 4 oz, balance to trigger = 5 3/4", unmounted swing effort = 2.49, mounted swing effort = 12.70. Balance and unmounted swing is much like a target/fowler shotgun of 7 1/2# to 8 1/2#. The mounted swing is a bit higher due to the weight. However, the DR's that I have are not at all ponderous, as many assume they would be.
Does this help a'Curious Reader".... sufficiently? Additional questions?
Gee, just when I was thinking about approaching you to restock my Brit double I learn that you string 'em up with a piece of crappy ole twine. Oh my God.
npm
Rocketman,
Thank you for the insight.
NPM.BLASPHEMY...."a piece of crappy ole twine"!!!!A gift from the Gunroom of 'The Late Geoffrey Boothroyd'...McIntosh & 'Self' were eating Scottish Fish & Chips at his desk, when 'GB' gave us a 'Dissertation' on'How to Eat Fish & Chips from Old Newspapers'..That Piece of'C-O-S' was used as part of the demonstration...(See full story,Conversations with Geoffrey Boothroyd by Mike McIntosh, The Double Gun Journal Vol.2#3 1991) CC/dt
DT, keep an eye on the "other" half of this thread as well, seems I ended up posting there instead of here, where this half of your brain farte ended up.