I've revised the 'Belgian Maker's and Proof Marks' album to make thing a bit easier, with the essential illustrations much larger
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17575181

From "Trade & Hallmarks on Firearms in Belgium" Bruno Joos De Ter Beerst, 1998







1 millimeters = 0.03937 inches
17.0 = .670"
16.3 = .640"
18.7 = .740"
18.0 = .710"
Choke markings may be found after 1924.

1 kilogram = 2.20462262 pounds
1.3555 Kg = 3 pounds
May also be found on barrels after 1924.

Interesting that he does not show the gauge-chamber length mark that replaced the gauge over C in a diamond. (But he does describe it.) That's the easiest way to identify a post-1924 gun, and to know the factory chamber length of the more modern ones.

He illustrated about 20 more marks Larry. I was too lazy to enlarge, cut and paste, and post all of them

Thank you for taking the time to do this...good stuff.


So what's up w/ the stars deal? I've never wanted any - and thought I had them 'turned off' - but suddenly two now appear under my name?!

Here are the date codes. The 1st is in European cursive.





After 1924 the barrel weight no longer included a decimal place.

Pete

I have all the usuall culprits on my 1924 or before gun but also a P with an asterix over it and an N with an asterix over it.

My gun looks to be exactly 1924 as it has the diamond with the 12 and the c in it. Has the lion over PV for smokeless and all the other markings. But the n and the p I don't understand. They are in line from top to bottom and are not combined with anything else. Also could someone tell me what choke 18.0 and 17.3 would translate into for this 12GA?

My 1924 or before gun must have gone in for a later reproof as it has a lion over P.V. on the flats. Is that how they did it/ They would just take the gun in and ask for a reproof? or what?

This is an easy to use site for converting metric to real

http://www.worldwidemetric.com/metcal.htm

Jim

My W. Foerster and J. Ansorg Berlin marked gun has German proofs on the Krupp barrel flats but a peron with an S and a star above on the action flats. Doesn't this seem strange?

Phil

In addition to all the other marks, the Liege Bank of Proof also had the Controller of Proof stamp the gun. This was done with a letter with an * over it. After about 1924 the names are pretty solid, before that it is any one's guess. This had been going on for decades. To my knowledge the Belgians were the only one's who identified the Controller.

The gun would have been choked Extra Full and Improved, I believe.

Pete

The bench test controller's (inspector's) personal marks used 1853-1877 were a capital letter with a Crown over. Bruno's book has the controllers and their personal mark listed 1911-1998. The spangled A was Nicolas Woit 1911-1940, and 3 others thereafter.

And here is a nice pic of the post-1924 gauge and chamber length mark inside the 'horseshoe'/Omega

My experinec with the gun as it is choked is that on quail and doves I was deadly with bbl 1 with the open choke and bbl 2.
But with roosters I have never had success with bbl #1. It's always been with bbl #2 and the full choke. Because of that I went to the pattern board. I determined that the open choked bbl had amny bird sized holes in the pattern with 1oz or less shot at 16-20 yards. The other bbl however had a much more dense and centered pattern. I hunt very wide open country with very wild birds, most flushes are at minimum 15-20 yards. Maybe I should start loading up a 7 1/2 1 1/8oz load for bbl #1. Would that solve the pattern density issue? If I use plated and buffered shot, I would think it pretty lethal at the ranges cited. I know I can keep pressures low enough with the 7625 I've been using. I was pretty shocked when i patterned bbl#1 and the holes in the pattern. It was kind of like "no Wonder". These roosters out here don't go down easy either. I hit 3 birds last weekend that bbl#1 just kind of made them shimmy a bit on take off - no doubt they were hit, but they flew off a long way. I pursued and got second flush on one of them and missed. Nothing leaves me more sad than that.Knowing there is a bird out there that is probably going to die because I didnt load up properly. Every bird I hit with bbl #2 dropped like it was struck by lightning. That's what get's me about this country i hunt and the tenacity of the birds.

Instead of playing w/ your loads, if there's enough steel in bbl # 1 [the right one I assume?], you can probably tighten the choke in it via 'backboring'...

jig: 18.0 is .70866, or at least 15 points contriction for a standard European 12b which, at the time of production of your gun, was probably .724. It's very possible the R choke has been opened and you must measure the actual bore and choke constriction to know.

I wonder if there is any connection between Belgian doublegun patent(s) holder Henri Woit (c1912 - c1919) and the two Woit's that appear on the page above (Christophe, and Nicolas)

jigman48
The gun shoulf be marked for both bore & choke. I am assuming the 18.0 (.709") & 17.3 (.681") are the choke dias for the two bbls. There should also be a bore dia mark such as 18.4 (.724"), 18.5 (.728") etc. Only with both marks can original choking be determined. Only by actual measurement can present choking be determined as it could have been modified over the yrs.

Robert,

It is hard to tell. It would make sense that family was working in the same industry.

From "Le Qui est Qui de l'Armurerie liegeoise" All the following are listed as armourers.

Woit 24 Henri Rue Morinval 1912-1921
Woit Dieudonme' 1910
Woit Claude 29 Rue JOnfosse 1874-1889
Woit Henri Rue 26 Morinval 1927
Woit Henri 430 Rue Vivengis 1906
Woit B. 1889
Woit Henri 16 Rue aux Chevaux 1945

One thing is certain. Once you got the job, it tended to last for life. A lot of 30+ years careers are reflected on the list. The other is that the list is full of fathers and sons. We tend to forget that the Bank of Proof is a government run operation. So patronage and despotism most likely reined. The letter I is never assigned to a Controller. On the above version, you will see a name then 2 sets of dates. The second set has a blank. It should look like this:

Y Delsaux Francois 1959 1968
Y Delsaux Francois 1974 1996
A father and son...

Finally, the early years of the list were put together by memory. Or so I have read. The Controller most likely never touched a gun themselves. They were supervisors for the actual work crews.

Pete