Well it seems us double barrel-waterfowl guys are backed farther into the corner with the bismuth situation. Sure- we can shoot Kent TM matrix loads if we can find them and the gun can handle the pressure, but how about older double guns designed for 7000 psi or so? Are there any viable alternatives for nontoxic shot- for reloading to low pressure? Please I'm not interested in hearing from the very wise boasting about laying in a good supply of bismuth. Just looking for alternates for us that aren't as smart.

The capitalist system will build Jacob's Ladder if there's a dollar in it, Dogfox. I anticipate an entrepreuner filling the vacuum, most likely with bismuth. I haven't answered your question, only provided what another bismuth and TM user thinks about the current situation.

ECOTUNGSTEN. (www.ecotungsten.com). I haven't ordered any yet since I'm waiting for smaller sizes (#6) which they say is expected in about a month. Anyone try any of this shot yet? It's supposed to be F&W approved, same density as lead so it can be substituted for lead with no adjustments in reloads, and soft enough to be ok with double guns. About $20/lb. I hope this helps, Dogfox. We certainly need SOMETHING (besides bismuth)!
Joe Bernfeld

We also need something that's not $20 bucks a pound....It's going to take a big manufacturer to produce Bismuth or Tungsten Matric to get the price within reason.

"Within reason" is, of course, relative, HomelessJoe. As my parents in their last years said to my remark about the lavish spread that always appeared before me: "You don't think anyone our age is worried about the price of food, do you?"

Then there's the cost, relative to our circumstances. Twenty dollars a pound should not stop members here from hunting with their doubleguns, compared to all those other costs of travel and recreation. It's a bargain.

I know one size doesn't fit all. I own my home.

I wish someone would market some type of pellet that could be used in old damascus or twist barrels only for shots of say, under 20 yards. Plastic? Rock salt? Copper? Zinc? Then I could use my percussion guns on very close decoyed waterfowl and still have enough gas money to get back home.

Everything is, I suppose, relative to one's circumstances. As a retired "Blue Collar" worker, I can assure you $20.00 per lb would certainly put the brakes on my ability to hunt. I have Lefevers I didn't pay that much for, of course I have had them a long time, but I can still sell them (for a profit) if the need arise, once that shot goes down the bbl it's gone forever.
Many, Many duck shooters hunt close to home. As a comparsion a working man would not expect to pay the same price for a cartridge to kill a deer in his county of resident as some rich dude might pay for one to kill some exoctic game on Safari, after traveling thousands of miles, paying a white hunter etc, etc. This price of shot is across the board, for "Any" pre-steel gun, not just the guns of the "Elite".

I called Bismuth No-Tox in June and spoke to am employee. He said production had stopped on 4/30/07. Production had stopped and the company was for sale following the death of the owner, Mr. Peterson. He told me offers were on the table. I called earlier this week and my call was taken by an answering service who could only say the company had gone out of business.

I do not believe bismuth shot is coming back anytime soon. It was the first non-toxic alternative to steel and as such all waterfowlers ptoentially had an interest in it's use. With the advent of Tungsten Polymer, Tungsten Matrix, and Hevi-Shot waterfowlers using modern guns have better non toxic alternatives and they seek performance better than bismuth. Bismuth's market niche was quickly being relegated to primarily waterfowler's using "vintage" guns. That is not too big a market. Don't look for bismuth shot to make a return anytime soon and certianly not before the patent rights expire.

This stinks but I believe it is reality.

Not to quibble, Miller, but how would five or 10 shots for a couple ducks or a limit keep you close to home? Some days I don't get a shot. My bismuth handloads cost $1.42 and 15-20 shots from a non-toxic $20/pound seems within reason to me, a freelancer with no previous-employment pension working 'til I drop. (Owning my home was a light reference to HomelessJoe!)

Well. I guess I should know this answer. But, just what is safe to shoot in my Damascus guns and muzzleloaders? Hopefully with out a shot cup.

King brOwn I own mine tOO ...I don't want to refinance it to buy shot.

Things will start to pop when the publicland upland hunter is forced into nontox shot.
Until then, the duck hunter has been an easy target.
Few ducks in the 70s and 80s - lead shot banned - steel shot - and now Bismuth.
A good start in taking some guns off the street.

I tried making Bismuth shot with my modified Littleton Shotmaker with mixed results. I am sure that with more work and time passable Bismuth shot can be made at home. I think that temperature control was my biggest failing. I ended up with shot in about three different sizes and about a good third not round but more tear drop shape. Most interesting I found that the teardrop shape patterned very well.

But before I get back into it again the price of Bismuth metal needs to drop. Just like lead you will find that bismuth has gone right up. Or it had the last time I checked and got a delivered quote for 500 pounds. I figured that I could make that amount and shoot for the next few years and never run out of shot or friends to help me shoot it up. It is always good to have friends, even better if they have birds to shoot.

Miller, rethinking my previous: as you said, circumstances differ. If there's travel involved to get to decent shooting, the price of shells could make one think again. I walk to my blinds. That's a big difference.

KY Jon: So your tear-drop "Swan shot" patterned well? How far was the drop with your Littleton?

AS an aero engineer, I'll tell you something unbelieveable. True tear drops of the same diameter as round shot has 1/50th the drag.

Can copper or zinc or some other cheap non-tox metal be dropped to a teardrop shape for close range work?

There is Tin shot available (from Kent?). Dunno about the price though. Not soft like lead or Bismuth, unfortunately.....

Mike Doerner