I had a rather unfortunate experience purchasing a shotgun from Gary Downey at Osprey Armes. This is a bit long, but I want to include exactly what happened.

A listing came up for a 20ga Sauer shotgun on GI. I emailed the dealer, Osprey Arms, saying, "If the gun is in original condition, I'll take it." I didn’t negotiate the price because these little guns go fast. Mr Downey called the next day, and assured me the gun was entirely original except “The barrels MIGHT have been re-blacked," but he wasn't sure. I told him that was OK and sent a check.

Long after the check cleared, it was brought to my attention that Mr Downey had purchased the gun at auction and refinished the entire thing! The pictures from the auction listing (see links below) show rusted/pitted barrels. Cracked wood in multiple places, along with missing wood on the for-end. A severely dented left barrel at the muzzle and gouges and scratches in the stock. The finish had turned to a "Dull Silver," per the auction house's description. Mr. Downey not only knew the barrels had been refinished, he paid to have them done along with the rest of the gun!

When I called and told him what I had discovered, he immediately began yelling at me! A liar gets angry when you discover the truth. And boy, was he angry! I later told him that in 40 years of collecting, I had never been yelled at (or lied to) by a dealer before. He apologized for yelling and said, "We will work something out."

Well, he ignored me for the next few months. I finally sent him an email telling him I wanted to return the gun and to make sure he reimbursed me for the return shipping. He agreed and asked me to send the tracking information.

(I'll gladly provide our email correspondence.)

I shipped the Sauer and didn't hear from him for several weeks. I sent another email, and he eventually replied and decided to dig in his heels. He sent several bizarre, rambling rants questioning my knowledge and collecting acumen, basically telling me it was my fault for getting burned, and said, "Sorry, but you bought a used gun!" He is correct; I bought a used gun, a used gun that he assured me had most of its original finish!

I understand the three-day inspection period had long passed. But when an expert like Gary Downey outright lies about a gun he's selling, that's something else entirely! Whoever refurbished the gun did an excellent job. Unfortunately, it's worth about 1/3 less than what I paid.

I get it. It's my fault for not having the gun checked out. I just assumed there wouldn't be any issues when dealing with a 40-year-old company like Osprey Arms. Unfortunately, my eyesight is slowly going away, and I rely more and more on dealers to be honest about what they have.


We must speak up when dealers misrepresent what they are selling! I started collecting when you didn't have to worry much about fakes and refurbished guns. Nowadays, some experts are even getting fooled.

Below are links to the auction house and the original Osprey Arms listing for the Sauer. Unlike most dealers on Guns International, Mr Downey did not mention that the gun had been completely refinished. He has ruined a hobby I have loved for a long time.

It takes years to build a good reputation, but only minutes to lose one.

Sorry for the bad news,

Pete


Link to the Sauer at Eldreds Auction house:

https://www.eldreds.com/auction-lot/*-j.p.-sauer-sohn-side-by-side-shotgun-early-20_CA8418CA75

Link to the Sauer at Osprey Arms:

http://www.ospreyarms.com/product/j-p-sauer-20-gauge/

Don’t know anything about Osprey, nor you. Sounds like a crappy experience. I do completely agree with you that, provided the “allegations” can be documented, we should be outing sellers who behave this way.

Occasionally, we hear stories like this on here. Guys getting their guns run over by tow motors by irrate postal workers. Stolen guns. You name it. .........Judging by the pictures, the gun looks fairly nice after it was restored. But I guess you wanted the gun to be original. And that's what you paid to get. And you got lied to. That is a shame. Sorry it happened. Hope everything goes better for you in the future. Thanks for letting us know. Take care.

Sucks to find the misrepresented gun on an auction site.

I bought one gun from Osprey. It had a few issues but I got it cheap. I was glad to get it cheap so I didn't mind putting some money into it. I had to really talk him into selling it to me.

I've had several guns I sent back to the dealer for issues not disclosed. Buyer beware!

Oh yeah, like I said, whoever refinished it did a great job. But after talking to six or seven different knowledgeable dealers, it's worth 1/3 less than I paid for it.

I'm surprised you got anything 'cheap' from Gary Downey. I've had a couple dealings with him. He normally has high quality pieces, BUT you better know what you are doing.....

Your Eldreds link is not a link. Can you post a link so we can see the original sale?

this thread is inappropriate and should be taken down...

No Ed, this should stay up. It is honest information about a clearly deceptive listing. It can be clearly documented that gun was refinished and that was not in the description or answered correctly when a direct question was asked to the dealer. And any dealer who has been dealing in high grade guns as long as he has knows. He may decide to ignore or pretend but he knows. Would be interesting to know who the winning bidder was. I am not saying this dealer was the auction buyer but who knows.

I do know high end dealers, who would have very little problem showing you if a gun has been restored. If the blue under the fore end is even in color with the rest I think refinish. Wear in hidden places is expected. If the stock and metal gun has zero dents, nicks or scratches after 50-100 years I think refinish. If edges are not crisp I think refinish. If it looks too good then I become much more careful. Still this is a beautiful gun and one I would be happy to own and shoot. Guns are just not investments, they are to be used and enjoyed in my lifetime.

Eightbore, you can cut and paste the line for a quick search. Came right up for me that way.

nothing to see

I think it is good to hear this. I might see him at a gun show. But, let's hear the whole story. I think that he has a right to tell it.

Sorry to hear this. Pretty brazen.

I want to know who refinished the gun ...

OWD

no pictures

John
Arrieta

You can copy and paste the original textl in your browser or use this link.

Jpsauer

Ken

Feel the noose tightening ed?

The thing I find most surprising is how willing a dealer is to soil their reputation
or throw away a long time business relationship for a few bucks in their pocket today.

"The Nutmeg State". An interesting historical anecdote. Oh well, if the shoe fits...

That's what I'd like to know.🤨 You said it was brought to your attention. Did someone tell you about it?

Absolutely laughable Ed.

Just out of curiosity, what are your reasons for thinking it is inappropriate and should be censored?

I’m sorry for your experience.

It’s not clear to me. Did he refund your money?

NM.

I have purchased only one gun from Osprey but it was an enjoyable experience. I saw the ad for a pretty rare 1872 gun, contacted them and we exchanged correspondence for several days about the gun and then about the price. It was a rare (and offbeat) gun in supposedly mint condition and priced accordingly. The price was kind of hard to pin down due to nature of the gun. Some people may have been unsatisfied, but to each his own. I finally got the gun for about 20% off the listing. Delivery was quick and I was completely happy with the purchase. I have shown it to several really knowledgeable collectors and all were amazed at the condition of the untouched gun.

That said, the person was not the one listed in the OP. I don't recall the gentleman I worked with, but it was certainly not the above individual. At the time time I was told there were a few individuals working there. It may unfortunately have been the luck of the draw.

I looked at both the listings and, to be honest, I would never had considered either one at the prices listed. Not my focus, but I do own several Sauers and Daly's and am basing my statement on my own shopping and buying experiences. Again, to each his own.

Do we consider $15,500.00 an appropriate price for this Sauer, refinished or high condition original?

You should be able to copy it and paste it in your browser

Try this

https://www.eldreds.com/auction-lot/*-j.p.-sauer-sohn-side-by-side-shotgun-early-20_CA8418CA75

My point was that I told Gary I collected based on originality. The more original the gun, the more I was interested. He assured me that the gun was all original, except for the barrels might have been refinished. He lied about the gun.

Thanks. whoever did it did a great job, I have an idea, but who knows.

Sorry, my first post was meant for somebody else

I bought a vintage double gun from Osprey about one year ago and it was a good experience. The gun had ejectors and a single trigger and before committing I asked Gary for approval to test fire it 25 rounds to check their function during the 3 day inspect/return period. He readily agreed as long as I used appropriate shells, and on test the gun passed muster. It was just as described and pictured in the on-line advert and I was totally satisfied with the experience and purchase.

I was talking to a dealer buddy of mine who said he knew that gun.

I’ve talked to five or six dealers and every single one of them put the value around $10,000.

No, like I said, he dug in his heels after saying we would work something out. He started mocking my lack of expertise and told me I bought a used gun. I gave him every chance in the world to do the right thing. But I also understand that it’s on me for not having the gun checked out… but I have no time for people that lie about what they have for sale. After buying guns for 40 years, this is the first time I’ve been lied to by a dealer… a dealer with a good reputation at that.

In your first post, you say that Gary has the gun. Is he refusing to refund your money? Is he refusing to send the gun back to you at his expense? How does he propose to "work something out"? If you put up a fight, his legal expenses will exceed the value of the gun. So will yours. The problem I see is that his original ad doesn't say anything about "original finish". How would your lawyer see that aspect? Did the dealers who valued the gun at $10,000.00 value the gun as original or refinished?

I must say I have never heard any bad news on Osprey. There are dealers out there that I can not say that about and they have been n business many years.



Arrieta
John Boyd

He sent the gun back… the post was getting long, and I wanted to shorten it. I thought I had left that part there. Sorry.

He said we would work something out in response to an email I sent after I discovered he had refinished the gun.

I originally sent him an email when I saw the listing. I wrote that if the gun was all original, I would take it. He said the gun was all original, except he thought "the barrels might have been refinished". I said OK.

When I discovered he had purchased the gun at auction and had it completely refinished, I called him on it!

He lied about the gun; he insinuated that he knew nothing about its history by saying, “I think the barrels might have been refinished,” But he knew the history of the gun because he had purchased the gun at auction and had it completely refinished.

When did I mention a lawyer?

No, he admitted that he had purchased the gun at the auction house. For some reason, he told me that the auction house told him that the gun had been sitting above a fireplace for 30 years.

I had always heard good things about him.

Another question- do you still have the emails of the conversations when he told you it was original? And the other emails of the conversations between the two of you? It would be nice if you have them........... Who has the gun now?.........Did you get your money back?

Jimmy, he said the gun was sent back, so he is again stuck with a gun he doesn't want. "I want a lawyer". That's a boatload of money.

I understand now. I think that's a shame. I guess the old saying goes...... anytime there is money involved, people are going to be cheating. 😔😔

It was a long time ago, but, Gary sold me a gun that was at a gunmakers shop in England, that he knew about. A very early steel barreled NacNaughton boxlock 12 NE, that had been vetted and reproofed for 2 3/4” ammunition. He had the stock bent left before he brought it here. It was a really nice old gun, and I used it a lot, back in the day, mostly for early season grouse and pheasants with light loads. I sold it when a regular at my club fell further in love with it than I ever had. It wasn’t terribly expensive, he didn’t get rich on me and everything was good, as far as I knew. If Gary had time, he would shoot the breeze for a half hour or so, when I called.
His offerings are a bit out of my wheelhouse, but, I was treated well.

Best,
Ted

Lawyering up will exceed the value of the gun in question. Why don't you contact the "Judge Judy Show"? She'll sort things out!...Geo

Upland 28.

Just wondering. Once you got the gun from Osprey, how long was it until you notified them that you were unhappy with the purchase?

John
Arrieta

[quote=Geo. Newbern]Lawyering up will exceed the value of the gun in question. Why don't you contact the "Judge Judy Show"? She'll sort things out!...Geo

Judge Judy only pays out $5,000.00. No help there. 🤔

Wouldn't take but 5K to get the guy back on track...Geo

Agree here, John. If it was weeks or maybe months later, it's too late to bit ch about bad news. I have the feeling there's a lot more to this story. There needs to be definitive proof Osprey had the gun redone, not just hearsay. My opinion: the gun was grossly overpriced at $15K, and even at $10K not a good buy, more like a $6500 gun afaic. Not judging, just saying, but buyer's remorse can pull out a lot of animas.
JR

As I said in my original post, the inspection period had long passed. Turning a blind eye to re-blued barrels, etc., is one thing…I'm sure sellers do it all the time. But when you talk to a dealer and specifically ask them if the item they have for sale has been refinished, and they lie to your face/ear, that's something else entirely.

After seeing the auction listing, I called Gary to see what he knew about the gun, and he started yelling at me. If he had told me the truth about the gun when I asked him, I never would've purchased it!

I think called him about the gun a year later, but he's the one who said, "We will work something out." long after the inspection period had passed.

It’s not buyers remorse, it’s being lied to that bothered me!!!

Did he ever admit to having the gun redone?
JR

I purchased a 1930’s vintage Arthur Howell 3” BLNE from Gary 10-12 years ago, with no issues…

"Well, he ignored me for the next few months. I finally sent him an email telling him I wanted to return the gun and to make sure he reimbursed me for the return shipping. He agreed and asked me to send the tracking information."


I personally think this part of your argument ends the argument. It doesn't matter if you were in fact ripped off, or it was buyer's remorse, you held onto to the gun for too long.

I bought a Model 21 from a well-known dealer. While discussing its condition on the phone I specifically asked if the gun had been reblued. The person on the phone with the company replied, no it is all original. When I received the gun, it was clearly reblued. I never left my receiving FFL with it, I had him ship it right back. Once received back by them I had to be proactive with getting a full refund. I could have lived with it if it had been reblued correctly, and he did better on the price. But it wasn't and he claimed it was all original.

Most dealers will make good, but you have to do your part. A few well-known dealers exhibit a stunning lack of candor. Not necessarily lying, but not telling you everything either, unless you ask. You want to buy a gun; they want to sell a gun. Its why they call it a deal.

You have to move quickly on this sort of thing, and "the next few months" is on you, I believe. JMHO.

I sold a double to a dealer in PA. It was a shooter, not collector gun with wear and most of the finish worn away. About a year later I saw the same gun listed for sale on his website. Description was mint, almost un-fired, highly collectable condition and very rare to find in such condition. But you could not see the serial number so was not 100% certain it was in the fact the same gun. So I called and asked about the gun. When given the serial number to confirm date of manufacture it was my old gun. I asked about it being refinished and was told in no uncertain terms it was not. "All factory finish." Then I asked him if remembered me selling him that same gun about a year ago. Crickets. I then asked him if he wanted a couple photos of the before refinished gun? Crickets and then dial tone. That dealer was not the same as the one here but when you hear high condition, you need to be very skeptical and consider few nice things go unused for decade after decade. I am sorry for the buyers loss and think it should be a tail of caution for us all.

There must be a school that dealers go to that teaches how to take pictures of guns that do not answer questions that potential buyers might have. If I had a dollar for every “High grade Darne V-whatever” that was ever posted on the web that did not show the barrel flats, thus keeping a prospective buyer from knowing EXACTLY what they were looking at, I could buy the factory and move it here. I’ve been the bearer of bad news far too many times over the years, to guys who bought a mid grade R who were sold a V model. I hate it.

Good example:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ked-f-f-make-offer-.cfm?gun_id=102658703

I’m at the point where if there isn’t a clear photo of the flats, I tell interested folks to move along. The dealers play stupid, but, they’re not.

Jon, the very worst of those guys seem to have met their reward. I haven’t seen the phrase “never had a screw turned” in a long, long time.


Best,
Ted

I once found an Ithaca 28 at a low price that lacked photos of the flats and water table. This was a large dealer on GB. I asked about pictures and they made no bones that they couldn't take them because the gun was modified so that you couldn't remove the barrels. In the ad they alluded to work done in a manner that made me suspect that was the case. They updated the ad to reveal the situation. I wanted to buy the gun because I believed I knew what the problem was, and I could repair it. I bid up to a point about half of a repaired value. It finally went to a rather notorious dealer at about what it would be worth after repair. A month later, it appeared on his site at a price about twice what any reasonable person would pay.

These people irk me because they take useful or desireable guns out of the market, add them to the 1000-2000 guns they are trying to market and which they never sell, so that collectors may not have access to them for years to come.

I often think that if the inventory of around 10 dealers I am familiar with were to come to market all at the same time at true market prices, the double gun market would collapse.

About a year ago, I stopped at a used car dealer's to look at a older Ford Ranger. It was in very good condition. And when the salesman came out to talk to me, I can't believe that he told me the story-- "It was only driven by a little old lady to church on Sundays." I thought he was kidding, so I asked him to repeat it- and he said the same phrase over again and he was dead serious. I could not believe that somebody would say such a thing when they were trying to sell a used car. 😏 But maybe it was true.🙃

Gary Downey was named in this thread. Can we hear the names of others, like "a Pennsylvania dealer" and "a rather notorious dealer"? If the stories are true, we shouldn't hear any replies from these guys disputing the stories.

eightbore, I am guessing on who the Pennsylvania and notorious dealers are. Probably won't get much reply from them as they are dead .

Daryl, I doubt that the two posters I questioned are referring to Tom Gibbons. I would guess that the dealers I am asking about are alive and well. I don't see the harm in naming the dealers in question if the stories are true, which I assume they are.