I had something of an epiphany the other day and it's taken me almost 50-years to get to this point (I'm slow, I know, & I understand that this will rub some folks the wrong way) but IMHO...most sub-gauge guns are superfluous. 16s are the very best of them, but they're all a significant compromise past that point. In doubles, a heavy 12 (~8lbs) will do anything that a 10 will do, and perhaps do it better (more load options, easier to carry). A light 12 (~6lbs) will do anything a 16 or a 20 can do and will be even more efficient when it comes to killing patterns. 28s and .410s are fun and even "cute" but largely unnecessary (unless you're into self-flagellation). If you've smaller or have developed some physical limitations and a heavier gun isn't much fun anymore, then by all means shoot a .410 but...you better be awful good with it, otherwise you're just wounding animals unnecessarily.

There is a reason that more 12s are made than any other gauge and it's because they are "the Alpha and the Omega" when it comes to utility and lethality. History has proven that fact over & over again. You wouldn't want to use the 8lb gun in the uplands (unless you had too) and you won't enjoy shooting the 6lb gun on targets because each has its place where it excels.

Light 12’s all the way. Hope to get to the Southern and find one I can afford. I’ll be looking at 16’s too.

Lloyd using your logic on a heavy 12 instead of a 10 can also be used for a 16 vs a light 12. lol

Mike: 16s are the best compromise of all and I'm a giant fan. The "Queen of the Uplands" title is apt, but... the real challenge of 16s these days is ammo. I wish that wasn't true but it has become their "Achilles' heel" anymore. That applies to the 2-inch 12s as well (I think I'd love having one, but the really good ones [w/28 tubes] are too-expensive and too-hard to feed). It's a shame this took me so-long to figure out but I guess I had to try out the extremes on both ends to figure out where the "middle" (the optimum?) really was.

I love short 10's and 16's but I have to agree. On the other hand I don't live in a country where I am only allowed one or two guns so....

While I do own 16s, 20s and a 28 in addition to a bunch of 12s, I completely agree with you Lloyd.

It’s just it’s fun to mess around with all of them.

Lloyd in Alaska I've never seen a 16 ga box for sale in an ammo shop. I reload my own. I have 2000 sitting and waiting.

This thread "lost me" in the title with that UGLY 4 letter word......."need". Right out of the gate your premise is flawed because we don't NEED any shotgun. Food, shelter and clothing (in colder climes) are all we NEED (and we don't NEED a shotgun to get food). everything else is a want. Having said that, gauges I own are 8GA, 10GA, 12GA, 20GA, 28GA and .410 in SXS hammer guns (except the 20GA which is hammerless until I find the right hammer gun to replace it). As you can see, I don't (yet) own a 16GA. I don't have a "need" for a 16GA but if the right sxs hammer gun came along for the right price...............If someone wants to limit their shotguns to 2, then your hypothesis makes sense. It's the "only wanting 2 shotguns" part that, to me, doesn't make sense. There really IS no right or wrong position in this IMO.

What fun is that?

I buy the gun, not the gauge.

I've been advocating light 12s over subgauges for a long time now. Welcome to the club at last Lloyd. Better late than never.

IMO, no one with a light 12 will ever experience the excitement and satisfaction of taking a limit of doves with a .410. How else can you explain the incredible number of .410 shells that are loaded and sold every year? Kiddies ain't shooting them all.

A .410 is the extreme, mind you, but the difference is real.

I am generally against censorship or deleting Threads here, but this idea that a man only needs two shotguns is dangerous in the extreme!

Just imagine the damage and hardship that might ensue if some woman did an A.I. search to determine how many guns a man really needs, and this idea came up as a result. Something like that would spread like wildfire among women, and they would all start nagging us to sell off excess shotguns.

I've tried to come up with some rational explanation for why you might post this Lloyd, and the best I can come up with is that you were either doing some really heavy drinking, or you are posting a late April Fool's Day prank. What ever it is, I'm betting that we won't be seeing you get rid of all but two 12 gauge guns.

This isn't quite as crazy as the nutty idea that it is OK for a gun owner to vote Democrat, but it's getting close.

Stan: If somebody is competent with a .410 (as you clearly are) then more power to them. I'm not saying you shouldn't (at least while this is still a free country) and I certainly understand the appeal, but in a very general reference to humanity, most folks either can't shoot one effectively or probably shouldn't (unless their skill with it is highly evolved). As you mention, the .410 is at the extreme.

Like many folks (most?), I'm purely looking at my own situation and use. I've used my own 28/.410 combo gun to good effect and I've no plans to discard it. I'd suspect that someday it will become even more useful to me. For most of us here (perhaps all?), "want" equates to "need" and if we're lucky or blessed (or both) we get to exercise those wants. I've thoroughly enjoyed the process that got me to this point and I hope (& pray) that I get to keep doing it for many more years, and after all that... I fervently hope that my progeny gets to enjoy those same freedoms.

Are you kidding me????
A .30-06 could successfully harvest everything on this planet.
Surprisingly, I don’t think I’ve ever owned one yet I have three or four dozen other calibers of loading dies.
I think you’re missing the point!
I will certainly agree you could get by on one gun, but to think you would need a light one and a heavy one might be the most superfluous statement of all!

"a 410 has no place on the game field"...

unless one has little or no compassion for the wounded bird...

the above quote is from lord know it all, October 12, 1899...

Ed: This isn't a screed against the .410, you're just looking for a fight.

Marks 21: I'm not arguing for needing only one gun, I'm saying that for pure efficiency (at least in the way I mostly hunt & shoot now) a 2-gun system would work very well for me. Realizing that will allow me to focus my time, efforts (& resources) in those areas.

"Steel shot has no place on the game field"...

unless one has little or no compassion for the wounded bird...

A more modern updated version of the quote . The current issue is FAR worse IMO as the advocacy for wounded birds (the use of steel shot) is MANDATED by law whereas the use of a .410 would be purely optional.

If I had to pick one gauge and one gun, it would be a 12 gauge Winchester 1897, simply because that's the shotgun I am most familiar and comfortable with.

Fortunately I'm not restricted to one gauge or gun and I've bought 16 gauge & 10 gauge shotguns because I wanted to. In the case of 16 gauges I've bought them because they were interesting and significantly less expensive than a comparable 12 gauge. I don't expect to buy a 20, 28 or .410, but if I come across a really nice 20, 28 or .410 I might change my mind if the price is right.

Interesting choice, Chantry.i have one in my hands right now.

I think you got it almost right. A heavy 12 and a light 16 is, in my mind, the perfect two gun battery. A 6# max 16 is the perfect upland gun. The patterning of a 16 with 3/4 to 7/8 shot loads is a thing of beauty and simply outshines a 20. I have a late production NID with well struck barrels and is likely the last gun I would ever sell (and, if memory serves, the one I have owned the longest; 51 years).

I was at a local gunshow this last weekend and a buddy of mine picked top a Sako something-or-other in .375 H&H. Shoulders it a few times and said how much he liked it...but.....he already HAS 6 rifles in .375 and was pondering whether or not he "needed" another. He didn't buy it...yet but the gun will likely be at the next show and he may pick it up then.I think his apprehension is that of all the .375 calibre that he owns, he likes the H&H the least. He certainly does NOT subscribe to the getting by with the least number of guns possible narrative LOL.

I should add that I am a true lover of the 28 gauge and love to shoot it, but I don't believe it or the 20 can measure up to the 16. I own 6 very well made 28's, and I do use them almost exclusively for doves. The reason is pragmatic. Most of our dove hunting involves quite a bit of walking and I can carry at least 50% more cartridges in a shooting vest with no added effort.

To quote Arnie Tex-"There ain't no right way and there ain't no wrong way". This applies in guns as well as cooking. The last two I bought were 24ga and 32ga, but the shot barrels were tied to rifle barrels.
Mike

I understand what you are saying, Lloyd. 12 ga. guns are surely the most practical of all. The mitigating factor that makes a big difference is the physical size of the 12 ga. gun. A 20 ga. gun is much more "slim and trim" in the hands, and less bulky, as is the ammunition, which can make them a good bit more aesthetically pleasing to the eye, imo. That is an undeniable "feature" to small bore shotguns. I dismissed the 16 ga. a long time ago, though I grew up shooting an Ithaca 37 16. It just doesn't achieve anything worth speaking about other than setting one apart from the crowd anymore. For those who use a 16, I'm glad you enjoy them. My good buddy Stan has an absolute peach of a 16 he really enjoys, an L. C. Smith Field Grade with ejectors, single trigger, and lovely 32" barrels that I think is one of his best buys ever. The 28 ga. is, to me an answer to a question nobody asked, but as I've said numerous times here before, it serves to relieve boredom with your battery, which is fine, but don't ask me to buy into it being significantly advantageous over a light 20. Not judging, just saying...
JR

I reload my own 12 gauge and 20 gauge. Those are the two of my choice. I could use 12 gauge for rabbits. The 20 gauge for small game and 12 gauge for larger game like pheasant and clay target shooting. I don't think I'd be interested in buying a 10 gauge for anything. I have a model 12, 16 gauge but I never use it. I would have to buy ammo and I cannot see that. 12 gauge I reload is a medium to heavy all around load. That suits me pretty well.

I am far from competent with a 410, but as far as I’m concerned the energy for individual pellets in say #8 skeet loads is the same. The 12 will fill out a pattern better, but using a 410 can be as simple as not shooting beyond some reference point out in the field. Close in doves skimming over low tree tops or tight bobwhites behind a pointer are big fun factor. I think there are more abuses of reasonable hunting range with three inch twelves, than the subguages?

I do not want to be logical about guns. I want enjoyment, enlightenment, a feeling of connection with craftsman and long dead owners. Need. Use. Efficient. Those things do not enter into the equation. If they did I’d be shooting a SBE3, camo, covered in the latest digital camo. I use archaic guns deliberately. I use tools which require me to excel to get the job done well. And I enjoy things made 75, 100 to 150 years ago which still do their job.

Lloyd...ah no, ah no...

but ah jes tryin to git ah rise by rattlin my stick along the cage o de ole bar, dat lurks here...from time to time...

mea coupa...

hit has been said that a 12 bore gon an ah 30 caliber rifle is all one needs to cleanly kill most any animal worth eatin...

You sum it up far better than I could ever manage.

I'd much rather shoot skeet with an underlever hammered SxS and drop 5 or 6 birds than go straight with O/U or semi-auto. Besides it's fun to give the other shooters a hard time when their semi-auto jams or the inertia trigger on their O/U doesn't reset.

I would have to gracefully disagree with Floyd3 that the 12 will do everything the 10 can do. Having carried all of the gauges from .410 to 4 gauge afield I can attest that the best "all around" gauge is the 10. I could make a strong case for the 8 gauge but it is not mainstream so I will stick with the 10. The 10 patterns better than a 12 and can carry a bigger payload if needed. Yes, if we are talking store bought ammo with a modern gun the 12 makes much more sense. But if we are talking vintage guns then the 10 is hands down the king. Those who know, just know. I own more 12's than 10's but I prefer to shoot the 10 at almost everything. Even at quail, a 10 loaded with 1 1/8 ounce of shot is a joy to shoot. I can also put gauge reducer inserts in and shoot 28, 20 16 and 12 gauge if I wish. But the magic of the 10 comes with using real black powder.

I have done both. I once ran a hundred with a Mossberg 500, on a bet, at a registered shoot. It was a nasty, windy and rainy day and I had the lone 100 straight. Many "top" shooters went home early so they did not ruin their averages. I understand that because one bad day could cost them a chance at state or nation honors. I just wanted to shoot and hunted in much worse weather.

I also have run hundred straight and been in shoot offs against shooters who I had no chance of beating under most circumstances. I went anyways and got beat most of the times, but had fun. Now I no longer want to shoot competition anymore. I would rather shoot a round of skeet with a new shooter than a All American. For one it is still fun and the other it is just another day at work. I can not beat the pros but I can share a sport I enjoy with a newcomer and make it easier for him to have some success and enjoyment. And speaking of those hammer guns everyone I shoot with all get a chance to shoot mine if they ask. I always bring extra ammo and give it to them so they too can enjoy these old guns. If I do not give them a chance to shoot a hammer gun, many never will shoot one and miss the hammer gun bug.

Your posts are excellent, KY Jon!! I can see you really enjoy what you do. That's what it's all about!! Good luck to you!!

I try to let shooters try my old guns as well, both the hammer guns and a few side locks as well. They all appreciate it and are usually surprised how light the guns are compared to their O/U and semi-autos. I've even managed to get some of them to either buy a SxS or drag them out from the back of their safes, although none of them have gone far enough down the path to the pre 1900 SxS's like I and the others here have.

Mr. Roberts: I completely understand about the beauty of a slim, light and long sub-gauge gun. They ARE quite attractive! My brother shoots a Scottish 20 (a Graham BLNE) that I talked him into (many years ago now) and he absolutely loves it (and he does allright with it...perhaps more good than great). I've had several 20-gauge guns over the years and while I loved how they looked and carried, I didn't like their lethality on game. Now...that's probably all on me (and my many failures as a shotgunner), but no-matter as I am primarily interested in two things when I go afield...filling my bag when hunting and then achieving only "clean kills". I like everything about a good day afield (& look-forward to it all winter and summer long) but...there must be a reasonable chance at success (at least as I define it). A good 12 (& possibly an exceptional 16) seems to better serve those ends for me.

12boreman: I've never had the luxury of shooting or hunting a "fine" short 10, so I'm still open there to argument. I've seen several over the years that I was quite impressed with, but I've never gone further than that with one. The ammo challenges are even greater than the 16-gauge issues I mentioned earlier here and clearly limit them for the vast cross-section of gun folks.

KY John: I own and use archaic guns as well, and for exactly the reasons you articulated earlier here so-adroitly. They are not "efficient" in any modern sense, but they are "art" to my eyes and I love how they feel in my hands.

I like and use light guns. I don't use heavy shotguns except for automatics. In a sxs, a light 12 is still fat, and there is no way around that. I can wrap my thumb and finger around my 4 lb 11 oz 28 ga sxs at the breech.

I have been giving this thread some thought (thank you for that, I rather enjoy pondering things that I had not considered before) and figured I would share some of those thoughts. These are NOT a post of "facts" just ramblings that, like the OP, is to get feedback, yea or nay. If one is on a tight budget, certainly a single (or in the case of the OP 2) guns that can "do it all" is desirable and in that vein, there is no question that the 12GA reins king, if for no other reason than cost and availability of ammo. I'm not really buying the "wounded birds with subgauges" argument because that is 100% a function of the shooter, not the gun in many cases. Most .410's. for example, seem to come in full choke. If the shooter is proficient enough to hit a bird with the centre of the pattern, a full choke .410 will bring down an uplander just as efficiently as a 12GA with a more open choke since with an open choked 12 shooting 1-1/8OZ for example could have similar pellet count in the same circle as the full choke .410. Perhaps I will pattern a FC .410 and compare to a modified and IC 12 and do a pellet count to see if this hypothesis holds water or not. HOWEVER, the 12 GA with the more open choke leaves a LOT more margin for error with the wider pattern. On the flip side, shoot a grouse at 20 yards with a 12GA full choke and, while it is unlikely that it will be wounded, it is equally unlikely that it will be edible (if hit with the centre of the pattern). IMHO, sub gauges are Wonderfull BUT require more skill to use effectively. For the record, I am NOT a highly experienced shotgunner like many here so these are all just "thoughts" with not a lot of field experience to back them up. I posted this to get the thoughts of those more experienced as to whether or not this makes any sense. Interestingly, I was having coffee with a buddy that used to be a trap shooter. He has a 22GA French flintlock SXS. Said before buying it he took it to the range and tried it out in a round of trap and hit 20 (I am assuming that is out of 25, I have never shot trap before) and that is with a 22GA cylinder bored. In the right hands, I believe that the sub gauges can be just as effective on most stuff as a 12GA but more pleasant to carry and shoot. Even a 12GA will wound if the bird is only hit by the fringes of the pattern. In closing, it seems to me that sub gauges can be just as effective as a 12GA but require more choke, closer shots and a skilled handler. There WILL be exceptions of course (hunting geese come to mind) but would like to hear if any of that makes sense or am I overlooking or misunderstanding something. Flame away.

it ain't about gauge...hits mostly about shot quanitity...

less than 3/4 oz of lead shot ain't enough to cleanly and consistently kill game birds...

with woodcock being a possible exception...

Have to give Ed credit here for the phrase "cleanly & consistently". An ounce and an eighth of lead shot seems to do that (cleanly & consistently kill) without failure and it is, of course, the standard 12-gauge load. I like and use many one ounce loads in my guns, and even 7/8th of an ounce will serve on targets quite admirably. But after hunting almost every fall for what now(?)...54 years, I've come to the conclusion that I get way-more clean kills with the standard 12-gauge load. My 16BLE comes very close to that level of efficiency with 1-ounce loads, and enough that I don't give it much thought anymore. Anything much below those numbers however, and I start to see more wounded birds and lost game. Blame that on me if you want but that's been my experience.

Guns are many things to me (insert the long list here), but they are first & foremost... tools (albeit highly refined!) that I use in the pursuit of game. And while I am clearly not a "bleeding-heart, earth-first, counter-culture lefty" I am very-much interested in humanely dispatching the game that I pursue. When I go to all the time, trouble, and expense to get to point where I can actually get a shot on a wild game bird, I desperately want that shot to count.

If a 12-gauge gun doesn't fit your circumstances, I completely understand. This is not a "knock" on your choices or tastes in guns. FWIW: I keep a very light and slim 28-gauge double hanging around here for the day when my light 12s (and even 16s) are more than I wish to carry on a long day's hunt. I know that day is coming, it's just a matter of time now.

It also depends on what type of shooter you are. Are you a quick shooter or do you let the birds run a little bit? My 20 gauge Ithaca is ideal for quail, but it has a full choke so I let the birds get out of ways before I shoot. I'll use a 12 gauge Model 21 for pheasant and sometimes I can get on them so fast they are still vertical. Or real close to it. So I have to let them get out a ways even though my 21 is I/C--- I/C. I've never shot a .410 or a 28 gauge. I guess I was never interested to shoot something so small. So, 1 1/8 oz 12 gauge or 7/8 oz. 20 gauge does it for me on just about anything.

I reload for all gauges 10 through .410 and shoot, well used to shoot, all but the 10 gauge. Since I hurt my right shoulder years ago I started using 3/4 oz. in 12 gauge for target shooting. Most times when I used to hunt pheasants, most were pen raised, with my setter I shot a sxs 16 ga. Fabrique Nationale with 30" Krupp steel barrels. Gun weighs 6 lbs. 1.8 ozs. and is a pleasure to shoot. When I lived in Northern New Jersey I hunted public hunting grounds with a Beretta BL 4 in 28 ga. and killed hundreds of pen raised pheasants using reloads with 7 1/2 shot and 9 shot. Most all shots had to wait for them to get out there. Back when I was in Germany in 1967-68 I bought a Winchester 101 20 ga. with 26" barrels and sent it home. I did buy a Remington 11-48 in .410 with 25" ICY ventilated rib and used that over there on hares, Hungarian partridge, Mallards, Teal. The hare weighed at least 10 lbs and hung from my belt its ears were dragging on the ground. I still have those guns and have used the .410 here at home on wild quail and woodcock.

So the whole point on the merits of a 12 gauge, I don't see it. If you are not confident in your shooting ability then shoot your 12 gauge with 1 1/8 or 1/14 oz. shot but not me. I was quite happy shooting the small gauges back then and have now started shooting a new to me .410 Hunter Arms Hunter Special. I will start shooting Trap again with my 12 gauge hammer gun using 3/4 oz. reloads. When I miss I can almost always know why, not the payload but me. No trophies or money involved but pleasure when they break.

Hey, I get it David. The smaller stuff is very likely overkill with a 12. Not many quail or dove hunting opportunities in my world these days. If there were, I'd likely see things differently. It sounds like you've had a good run in the gun world, and being an author, you'd know what I'm talking about. If you ever run across another copy of that book of yours I'd love to get (at least) a readable version. You've earned your opinions and I respect that.

Shot column or "square" loads. 1oz and ⅞ in a 12 light or heavy works.
I remember reading MM that a light 12 became popular because of mens hand size on a sxs.

A guy I shoot with shoots a 28g . ¾ load. He is deadly.

I shoot sc and do not like 1 1/8th