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Posted By: SDH-MT R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/03/07 10:12 PM
This dbl rifle walked in the shop the other day and I've been unable to turn up much information about the maker. About a .40 cal, marked R.Wakefield, London on the brls and R. Wakefield on the lock plates. Looks to be transition era; off-center top lever screw, single under-bolt, keyed forend, percussion era guard.
Any ideas or experience with such a rifle or the maker?




Posted By: crossedchisles Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/03/07 10:42 PM
SDH..Interesting Gun-Rifle! Does the Top-Lever Cam off the corner of the 'cut-out' at the top strap? Looks somewhat kinda, sorta like a Westley R. Have you stripped it down? any Initials stamped anywhere? Engraving looks a little Provincial' Or Belgium. The only "Wakefield" that comes to mind is the street that Hollands Factory is on as it Intersects The Harrow Road...I'm sure that 'Diggory' or Salopian' will be of help..CC.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/03/07 10:45 PM
Pull the barrel and show the proofs.
Posted By: John Mann Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/03/07 11:07 PM
Sure looks like a Richards to me. This Wakefield could be a seller and not a builder.
I have found a couple of other references to this name but there is no history as a builder, so far.
Best,
John
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/03/07 11:29 PM
Might be a London marked Belgium gun ?
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/03/07 11:55 PM
I haven't taken it apart yet so there is much more that I don't know than what I do.
Here's pix of the barrel and action flats. These are the only marking other than the signatures.


Posted By: Mike Bonner Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/05/07 10:02 PM
British back powder proof marks, what happened to the exterior of the barrels? Waiting for browning? Reblue on the mechanical end, seemingly,
Mike
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/06/07 12:02 AM
It looks like the whole gun was hot blued at one time. Estate gun, this is the way it came in the shop. Extractor & sights missing. Very nice locks (no interior markings) and excellent lock inletting.
Anyone know anything about the maker? I haven't got all the references, all I can find is one sentence in Carder about a shotgun.
David, that little tiny mark on the short rib behind the loop looks like A through a B?
Posted By: Terry Buffum Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/06/07 01:33 AM
R. Wakefield is not listed in Nigel Brown's "British Gunmakers - Volume One - London" or Crudgington or Boothroyd
Posted By: MickeyD Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/06/07 01:36 AM
Reading from left to right I would like to know what the last marks on the barrel are called or what they signify. I have a shotgun that I can't ID with a similar mark.

Pictures of the gun were posted here some time ago and we were never able to ID the gun. Maybe knowing what the mark means will help. Dealers have looked at the gun--some think it is English others German--no on knows for sure.

I can't post pictures--too dumb. Daryl Halquist did it for me earlier.
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/06/07 08:29 PM
Thanks for checking Terry!

To the best of my knowledge, the crown over BP is the Birmingham preliminary blackpowder proof, making the barrel address a curiosity, or?
Posted By: John Mann Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/06/07 10:19 PM
The Birmingham proof mark might not be such a curiosity. It is unusual but not unheard of that a gun with prelim proofs (seems the law required it before a gun could be put together) and not finished in England. It may have been sent to India or Australia to be finished there.
What is a mystery to me is the color of the wood. It does not seem to be something that would have been used by any British maker. The more I think on it, the more I do think of India and some wood from Asia.
Just thoughts.
Best,
John
Posted By: PeteM Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/07/07 12:54 PM
Steven,

From Lee Kennett's article, both marks are from Birmingham. The 1st is a view mark 1813-1904 and the second mark is provisional proof.

John may have something. Apparently it was made in England and submitted for provisional proof. Where was it finished? If in Europe, it should have final proof marks.

Pete
Posted By: Roy Hebbes Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/07/07 09:06 PM
Can find no record of a Wakefield in London.Could be associated with W.H.Wakefield & Co; of 10 Whittall Street, Birmingham. 1897-1900.Proof marks are Birmingham pre,1901. Top lever is similar to the Westley Richards design of the period.Could be a W.R. action finished by Wakefield or a rifle made for Wakefield by Westley Richards. The & Co; suggests to me that Wakfield was a dealer as well as a possibly a maker.
Posted By: Salopian Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/08/07 08:50 PM
W.H. Wakefield was also listed at 2, Price Street B'ham, the proof marks date coincide with the listed dates for Wakefields existence, perhaps when you strip it Steve we may learn more.Can't find a Wakefield listed in Australia.
I'll keep looking for this maker.
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/10/07 07:35 PM
Thanks to all!
I'm afraid it will remain somthing of a mystery, at least until I can find the time to disassemble it and see if there are any further clues.
Steve
Posted By: Steve Meyer Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/10/07 08:18 PM
Not much to add 'cept that "70" as a gauge is about .407"
Posted By: ellenbr Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/11/07 01:57 AM
I don't know where Steve Meyer's reply is but it would be gospel. The marks are Birmingham black powder proofs for a 70 bore. The gun was made in Birmingham for a retailer in London, I think. The last mark(L-R) is a crown over BP which is a preliminary black powder proof.

Raimey
rse
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/11/07 01:59 AM
Originally Posted By: PeteM
Steven,

From Lee Kennett's article, both marks are from Birmingham. The 1st is a view mark 1813-1904 and the second mark is provisional proof.

John may have something. Apparently it was made in England and submitted for provisional proof. Where was it finished? If in Europe, it should have final proof marks.

Pete

Posted By: SDH-MT Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 08/17/07 01:44 AM
Salopian provided some very interesting info about Richard Wakefield & family while the board was down. Maybe he will post it here. Just what I was looking for.
Thanks salopian!
Posted By: AO Sword Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 12/07/14 05:37 PM
Mr. Hughes, here it is over 7 years on from your initial post, but I only just joined this forum and I do have information on this make. Even if the shotgun has long since passed from your hands, it may be that other folks have come across this site via a search for the elusive "R Wakefield" make. I therefore hope that this information is of value:

"R Wakefield" was not a real person's name, but rather a trade name registered by Mr. R. H. Kilby of Montreal, Canada. Mr. Kilby was a prolific dealer and importer in the 1870's.

http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/scripts/l...;imageID=141372

Mr. Kilby manufactured no firearms, but was a dealer for many British arms manufacturers in Montreal. As he expanded his operations, he began commissioning custom-marked firearms under the "R. Wakefield" name. These were low- to mid-market offerings, constructed from roughs and finished by cottage makers in the custom of the time, especially for export to the African and South American markets. Kilby's self-stated intentions were to invest slightly more time into the finishing stage, in the hopes of serving the North American market.

Here is Kilby's letter to the editor of Forest & Stream, Rod & Gun, a sportsman's periodical in Montreal. The letter was published in 1873, Volume 9 of the publication.

------

"WHO IS R. WAKEFIELD?"
The above question was asked by one of your correspondents at Whitehall, in your issue of October 4 r and you gave a very correct reply. "R. Wakefield" is the trade mark I put on guns of English manufacture, and this, in conjunction with the Lion and Beaver and the mono-gram BHK between them, is registered at Stationer's Hall, London, England, and can only be used by myself.

Craving your polite indulgence, I now ask you to permit me, through your columns, to state by what motives I was actuated in adopting any name as a trade mark, which was not my own. I don't make guns, I profess to be the architect, but not the builder.

My guns are constructed after my own designs, and I employ builders, who will furnish the best work at the most reasonable price. Makers who are both the architects and builders of their guns, and who have deservedly earned an enviable reputation, may sometimes yield to the temptation of trading on their fame, and tons either furnish an article of mediocre merits at a price beyond its real value, or a
really good article at a fancy price.

My motives then are:
1. Not to be identified with, or tied to, any maker;
2. To be entirely independent of fancy prices;
3. To secure the best work at the lowest figures;
4. To employ such builders as are best calculated to satisfactorily construct the various-varieties of guns suited to fill the wants of my correspondents.

I hope your readers will have charity, enough to refrain from saying that I must be some relative of the famous Captain. Bragg, if I assert that I understand what a gun should be. I have handled a gun ever since I had strength enough to carry one, and I hardly like to confess how many years that is since.

Thus, you wouldn't invite the trade of any particular maker. I strive more to put (through the trade) Into a sportsman's bands as good a gun as can be made (no matter by whom) for the price charged. Sportsmen are as quick as moat men to detect anything In the form of humbug; and, as I have the conceit to believe that I am not an unwelcome member of the kind and hearty fraternity, I must, therefore, ask them to accept my assurance that my endeavor now is to put in the market the best work and material at a cost which cannot be achieved under other conditions.

I would not have ventured to trespass at such length on your space had I not thought the reply to your correspondent at Whitehall— accurate though It was— might have placed me in a position capable of various interpretations. Your love of fair play— which I have so often seen evidenced— could not, I am sure, permit this, hence my reliance on your good nature to receive this communication.

I am, dear sir, yours truly, R. H. Kilby.

-----

I hope this information is of use to you, and any others who might happen upon this page in search of info on the elusive "R Wakefield" make of firearms. Your shotgun is likely a mid-1870's cottage import. Mass produced by a large maker in Birmingham with London registration, shipped somewhere in England for finishing by a small cottage outfit, commissioned by Kilby for export to Canada, and sold in small numbers throughout North America.

It is fairly rare, reflecting the low volume of a cottage maker, but unless someone has some particular affinity for Kilby himself, that rarity doesn't impart any measurable increase in value. I believe it to be an average example of cottage guns of this era, having held two in my hands.

Respectfully,
David
Posted By: lagopus Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 12/07/14 06:33 PM
70 bore might be for the .450/400 Black Powder Express 2 3/8" round. E-mail the Birmingham Proof House and they should be able to confirm the 70 bore mark. Markings were a bit vague back then. Lagopus.....
Posted By: Roy Hebbes Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 12/10/14 02:01 AM
AOSword
I was very interested in your post related to Ralph H Kilby.
In his book The Canadian Gunsmiths, 1608-1900 the late Prof; S.James Gooding ,The author, lists Ralph H. Kilby as a Gunsmith and Manufacturers agent, 346 St Paul Street Montreal P.Q.1871-1875.
Records[official Catalogue] show that Kilby exhibited the Evans breech loading rifle at the International exhibition held in Philadelphia in 1876. It is very unlikely that Kilby was the manufacturer.
It is also recorded that Kilby was one of the first Canadian agents for Smith and Wesson Revolvers.
There is no mention of Kilby using the name, R.Wakefield on firearms in Gooding's book.
Some years ago I owned a rook and rabbit rifle bearing the Wakefield name. Prior to your post I had always thought that the gun was a Birmingham import bearing the name of a Birmingham maker. We live and learn, thanks for your post.
[Retd; member of the Canadian association of antique arms historians.]
Posted By: canvasback Re: R. Wakefield, London DBL Rifle? - 12/10/14 02:49 AM
R. Wakefield? Didn't he play keyboards with the English prog-rock band Yes?

LOL
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