Savage seems to be the inexpensive option for something like this (the venerable Model 24). Is there a more-perfect combination of calibers? Off the top of my head, I would guess something like 16-gauge/.22 magnum (not sure this was ever offered) would work to keep the weight issue down. The more practical version (best lethality, easy to feed) would likely be something like a .223 over a 12-bore? I'm sure there are european versions that are superior. I've nothing against drillings, other than I'm a southpaw and I've never seen one that would actually fit me. There is also significant cost associated with the better versions (and, of course, the age factor). I'm only (mildly) considering a more-practical "tool" at the moment. What says the cognoscenti here?
I recently purchased the new model of Savage 24 (all black, composite stock, etc.) in 3 inch .410 and 22 Magnum. I have not yet fired it but it weighs practically nothing. Well built piece. I have seen Model 24's in 12 and .223 and also I once saw a 12 and 30-30. I recently saw one in 12 and I believe 220 Swift (?). There are several different iterations of these over the years and when you find one it is still holding its value quite well. Happy hunting Lloyd!!
I saw that new version. For the money it's probably not too bad (a 20/.22 magnum combo would be about perfect IMHO). I do have a few "plastic" guns and they work well-enough but...they leave me a little cold. This is an idle pursuit so... I'll just keep noodling through the various on-line sites. You never know what will turn up.
A couple of months ago I picked up at internet auction a plastic camo model 24 in 12g and .223 with a red dot scope. I have been watching for one for Coyotes out west. It is like new and was very reasonable. It weighs just under 7 lbs but feels like 9 lbs. I have not shot it yet. Waiting for warmer weather.
I've owned several Savages and ultimately hated them all for unreliability and inaccuracy. You can buy a Sauer drilling or combo on gunbroker for $1500-2000. They are coming in from Europe where they have gone out of fashion. I recommend 7X65R and 16 gauge.
i have savage 24s in 20 ga/22; 20 ga/30-30, 20 ga/357 magnum, and have had them in 22/410 and 20 ga/223. neat guns but the barrels are not regulated as to point of impact. on the 22/410 use for close range small game this is less of a problem. a savage 24 in 20/223 had barrels so poorly regulated as to be worthless even at 25 yds. sold that one right away.
the Baikal O/U are imported in multiple calibers, the POI of the rifle barrel can be adjusted to some degree by a jack screw. the results can be amazing. i have several of these as well, for instance a 223/12 that shoots very small groups to point of aim and at 35 yards a 12 gauge slug from the shotgun barrel hits dead center into the same POI.
i also have several drillings which i really like , esp a 20x20x25/35 that weighs 6 pounds 6 ounces
cable, you obviously like combination guns, especially to have had so many Savage 24s when they have been so disappointing to you. I'm curious as to how you utilize them exactly. When you are out with one are you targeting one or two species, or are you just "pot luck" hunting?
Noting the OP's lament on the lack of left-handed drillings, they do show up from time to time. If you want a drilling and see a lefthanded one, it's best to buy immediately. I have one, not for sale, and it is an excellent tool here in Maine, all November when all the seasons are open. 16x16x 8x57R will take care of pretty much everything. You can also do well at some of the auction houses. They'll regularly have both drillings and over/under combo guns. I've seen some fun combos - 20 x 30-30 comes to mind.
Having a combination gun is a bit like having an Enduro motorcycle-sure, you can ride on the street or in the dirt, but, it is not the best, not even close, for either. Get a dirt bike, or, get a street bike, or, get both.
Get a rifle, a good, accurate rifle with the optics you need (almost nobody here is using iron sights these days) and get a bird gun, a really good one, and use either for their intended purpose.
A deer poked its head in a cover you were hunting grouse in? Let him go until deer season. None of us is starving. Best, Ted
i just like experimenting with these sorts of things.......the actual use is mostly for opportunistic hunting and plinking and playing. the 20/30-30 has reasonable barrel alignment as does the 20/357. for those two i subsequently located and fitted each with an extra set of 410 over/under barrels. each of those two has a soft case that holds the whole rig, which can be thrown in the vehicle for camping trips etc potentially these are pretty versatile rigs that could cover a lot of situations.
the baikal OU guns are well made and the rifle barrels are quite accurate. i have them in 12/223, 12x 6.5x55, 12 x 7.62x39, and 12 x 30-06. i also had one in 12/308 and it worked very well but the others covered all my [imaginary] needs anyway. they also make it in 12/9.3x74R but i have never seen one. all of these come with screw in choke tubes.
Baikal makes a nifty little 22/410 also with adjustable barrel and dovetail scope mounts.it was imported by remington for a while it weighs around 5 lbs at most and is really deadly on small game.
in reality i probably dont actually need any of these....but thats true of a lot or even most of my stuff !
One week a year here in ky there is a time when quail, rabbit, squirrel, dove, woodcock( or snipe) and deer are all in season. That is a fun time to go on a nice walk about with the drilling. Usually it’s some dove with a rabbit or squirrel and a doe that turns around at 100 yds to see what jumped her. This is a fun time with a combination gun ( until you have to deal with the deer solo). It’s a different kind of hunting much more solitary, dogs just get in the way and can be illegal if you shoot a jumped deer. I don’t think I would spend the money on a Combo gun for this one week every year or so but mine was a gift. It’s worth borrowing one and experiencing it once or twice. In my case it’s more about the gun itself and remembering the grandfather that gave it to me. It’s just more of a walk about than a hunt. Ted is correct; bird dogs and a light fast 16ga sxs is a bird hunt. A fine 270 with a 4x12 leupold is a deer or elk hunt. It’s quite different and a solitary thing with a drilling or combination gun.
20 /22 with 20" barrels and folding stock. the story is that these were OSS issue in WWII and later in the 1950s . if the cold war had gone hot, these might turned the tide in our favor !
actually....i made that all up. the folding stock really is from WW2 and made for savage side by side or combo guns. Sarco had these for sale for years , hermetically sealed in the foil lined pouch, for $4.95
i bought one and used on this savage 24C. the C stands for Camper....not Clandestine...though it could mean both ! HA!
the finish on the folding stock is the original WW2 'crinkle' finish that was used on lots of things, including radio sets, morse code keys, etc.. i scraped ad shaped the forend to be a rough match and used a rubberized messy spray-on to try and match this.
i cant think of much this gun is good for except as a compact camping tool. my son [ who is now 34 and is a software engineer ] has this 24C and loves it just for its funkiness i think
Somehow, I was able to restrain myself from bidding on this interesting little German side-lever opening S x S Hammer Cape Gun chambered in .22 rimfire and 9 m/m shot cartridge. It sold a couple weeks ago for $470.00
I don't know what 9 m/m shot cartridge it takes, but assume it is the 9 m/m rimfire version, or something even more obscure. Fiocchi lead # 7 1/2 factory rimfire loads show a velocity of 600 ft./sec. Highly questionable if it fits the definition of a practical combination gun. Once I talked myself out of bidding on it, I entertained the thought of providing a link to the auction here. Then someone could have tried to make up some 3/16 oz. TSS handloads, and used it to kill a turkey.
Interesting double there Keith. I own a side by side mini cape gun that is .410 shotgun and .300 Rook Rifle by Rosson of Derby; a hammer top lever with express type sights. As for Drillings I also have a double 16 bore and the lower barrel has been converted to .22 rim-fire by Griefelt of Germany with detachable claw mount telescopic sight. The side safety moved forwards allows for the two shotgun barrels to be fired and moving forward the top safety converts the front trigger to fire the rifle and also pushes up a sight along the rib if used without the scope sight. Damned ingenious in a way. Lagopus.....
Ted is right, of course. A fine bird gun and then a good deer rifle is the far-better (more practical) option here. It's certainly not a "need" thing for me, but... a firearm that could do both (and very well) would indeed be "damned ingenious" as Logopus puts it, and the rare occasion where it would be useful would be no-less fun.
Just knowing that Dave-in Maine's drilling even exists makes me interested in trying something like that out. Yet another variation on the theme, which is being out and about in good country with a fine gun in hand.
I find that people that disparage drillings most often either don't have much experience with them or the experience they do have is with one that is poorly thought out. Often, one chambered in 12x12x30-06 is erroneously regarded as the most appropriate, and then often with too long barrels. Such a drilling will be too heavy and unhandy. A 16x16x one of the rimmed 57mm long cartridges is much more appropriate, especially if it has 60mm to no more than 65mm long barrels. In addition, it should be scoped in claw mounts to be useful. After the scope, a 22 LR or mag. insert barrel and quick shortening sling are handy additions. Where I live, deer, bobcat, racoon, opossum, beaver, fox, coyote, otter, ground hog, Ferrel hog, rabbit, squirrel, quail, crow, and dove are in overlapping seasons. I have often gone deer hunting and come home with something else. Mike
I can admire the practicality of combo guns, but they are just not my cup of tea, though I tried one for a brief time, early on. When I go hunting all my focus is on the particular game species I'm after, and equipped for. I do not subsistence hunt. If I did I might feel differently about these guns. If I am hunting deer I'm after a big buck, or a doe for meat. I will not ruin my chance by shooting a squirrel. If I am shooting doves I have zero use for a rifle. If I'm hunting ducks I will not shoot at a deer that may present itself. I want ducks.
I'm not out there just to kill something. I'm out there to kill something in particular.
It doesn't make me right, or anyone else wrong. It's just how I like to hunt.
I also admire the practicality of a combination rifle/shotgun. As a "wilderness shack gun." My ideal of the type would be a 12-gauge 2-3/4" over a .22LR. Cylinder-choked shotgun tube. Shortish barrels. Ready to deal with anything non-deliberate.
Would I ever be likely to carry and shoot it? No.
Would I like having one at hand? Yes. I've watched a (probably) rabid and uniquely intrusive red squirrel try to chew its way into my shack through the aluminium screen door for a few straight days, and I purely wished I'd had a convenient ballistic way of, ahem, elegantly solving the problem. But everything I owned that had a firing pin was 235 kilometres away that weekend.
Back about 1990, I bought a drilling as part of a 5 gun deal. It's a pre-war C.K. Ansorg 16x16x 8x57R. It's a lovely gun with extensive engraving. It is extremely well finished with very fine checkering and internal parts that have a mirror polish. I love the selector on the tang to switch the firing control from right barrel to rifle barrel, while at the same time operating a linkage to raise the rear sight above the rib. It isn't at all heavy or clumsy, but I have only taken it grouse hunting a couple times in all the years I've owned it. I thought it would be nice to try to take a deer with it, but for many years used nothing but my flintlock for deer hunting. Maybe I'll have more time to play with it when I'm retired.
The old German gunsmith who had a shop not far from my parents house had lots of combination guns, piled up like cordwood. He had smuggled them out of Germany after WWII, how I'll never know. They must have been very popular there, but just never caught on over here. We do have some true combination guns, but seem to gravitate more toward stuff with multiple interchangeable barrels like T/C Contenders or the old H&R Toppers. He had a bunch of drillings, and also had Vierlings (4 barrels), Fünflings( 5 barrels), double rifles and cape guns. Many of them had incredible engraving, gold and silver inlays, ivory and intricate stock carving. The four and five barreled guns had some odd configurations and combinations of shotgun and rifle calibers. One gun to cover about every conceivable hunting situation is an interesting concept. I could only imagine the complexity of the lockwork in those. Having worked on a lot of German machinery, I find it to often be somewhat over-engineered. Sometimes I found myself thinking that if the Germans built tanks, airplanes, and U-Boats like the machines I repaired, it's no wonder they lost two world wars.
I've got time on my hands so I get to contemplate these oddities. I think Stans explanation is the closest thing to how I seem to feel about it all, and Fudds situation is probably the best argument for having one available. I keep thinking about the Luftwaffe's lovely pilot-supplied drillings during the second world war and how they might have been used. As a practical matter, the really nice drillings that I have gotten to see (and then hold) are pretty expensive and... at that point I'm probably out of the equation. Moreover, when I look at the Savage 24's online (and the one Ed just listed here) I'm just not captivated by them. The nicer ones are fun to contemplate though.
I have always admired the craftsmanship and engineering of the Drillings. I happened to find one in my price range last year and the Southern SXS. It did need some TLC and turned into an amazing gun. Its a guild gun from pre WWI with and underlever 16X16 with a 9.3X72R barrels. For my location in central NC it works great. 16 gauge is good for birds and four legged animals, the rifle is contemporary with the 30-30 that has taken thousands of deer in my part of the US so i dont feel undergunned with the 9.3x72. Most of my shots on deer are less than 75 yards and usually in heavy woods.
I was able to take my drilling on a quail hunt last november, it did great and i didnt feel that it was cumbersome to carry and it didnt get too heavy as the day went on. It felt good to take a 100+ year old gun into the field and use it for what it was intended for.
A friend used a nice drilling with a low power scope in Africa. He mostly hunted birds, but back "home" we used the scoped drilling to shoot clay birds. Shooting clays with a scope was actually quite easy and much fun.
Quite by accident I ran across the Chiappa Double Eagle combination gun in 20-gauge/.22. Not expensive, but build quality is unknown to me. There is a .410/.22 magnum version as well. They also make a skeletonized survival version in .410/.22 .
I'll wade into this, I have a soft spot for combo guns and drillings, and I use them a lot. I'm a predator hunter and there is nothing better when you're calling in the thicker stuff. Coyotes can sneak in to some very close ranges before you see them, they can use brush and creases in the land to suddenly appear at your feet. Having a shotgun barrel loaded with NP BB's is really handy, then again they will hang up outside of shotgun range and survey the situation and the rifle barrel will do the trick.
My favorite drilling for preds is a 1926 no name drilling in 16ga/16ga/6.5x58R Sauer with a low mounted 1-4x20 scope and handles like lightning. I've killed more than one pheasant on the way back from a stand. Inside 40 yards an ounce of BB's will get the job done, no need for heavy loads of buckshot as the rifle barrel is there for the longer work.
No slouch in the accuracy department either.
Get in a little more open country where you can stretch out the rifle yet having a shotgun is really handy and you don't have to reach down and change weapons, the rifle is just a different trigger away. BRNO 12ga/5.6x52R(22 Sav. Highpower) 55gr .228 bullets are availible.
Literally the worst designed combo gun Sav. Model 24 223/20ga. While both are more than adequate for the job getting them to fire isn't. To shoot it you have to reach up and cock it then move the selector and for the second shot you have to go through the process again. Be sure and mount your scope high enough to get your thumb to the hammer and then build up the stock so you can see through the scope without having to bob and weave your head around, it didn't take long for this one to hit the road.
Now this is a dandy combo gun American Arms(Marrochi) 12ga/222 Rem with Winchokes again it is a sub MOA rifle. It went to a turkey hunter that was plagued with coyotes stalking his turkey decoys.
Someone mention get a bird gun for upland, well this one is one of my favorites it handles as nice as some of my better sxs's. 1906 drilling 16ga/16ga/9.3x72R. It works well on fur also. I do have to reach up and cock it though.
And my favorite big game drilling for still hunting the northwoods. JP Sauer 16ga/16ga/7x57R again no slouch in the accuracy dept.
The ideal combo gun has two triggers(instant barrel selection) and a safety(no cocking hammers), solid scope mount, low power variable for the large FOV and enough X's to reach out a ways and preferably a rimmed rifle cartridge to your choosing for the game you intend to hunt. A set of shotgun barrels are handy too.
oskar, you have definitely had experience with combination guns of most types. Have you ever tried a Valmet? There are lots of them around, and they bring pretty strong prices in good condition. I owned a 12 ga. Valmet trap gunfor several years and found it to be a very solid competition gun. They are built strong and, according to a close friend of mine who owns several sets of combination rifle/shotgun barrels sets for his, are noted for good accuracy from the rifle barrel. Just wondering if you've had experience with them, since you didn't mention them.
I have not used the Valmet yet. I've bid on a couple but haven't been successful. They are or were recently available new and have quite a selection of barrel combinations. I saw one that was being sold with seven sets of barrels. I believe that Sav rebranded some Valmets as the 2400 but don't quote me on that. Interestingly Valmets haver come with single triggers with a selector on the trigger and double triggers. They are good combo gun with the option of double rifle barrels or double shotgun barrels.
The American Arms combo above has the barrels adjustable for point of impact. For some reason I think Marrochi is making the Valmets now, something I might have read.
I have not used the Valmet yet. I've bid on a couple but haven't been successful. They are or were recently available new and have quite a selection of barrel combinations. I saw one that was being sold with seven sets of barrels. I believe that Sav rebranded some Valmets as the 2400 but don't quote me on that. Interestingly Valmets haver come with single triggers with a selector on the trigger and double triggers. They are good combo gun with the option of double rifle barrels or double shotgun barrels.
The American Arms combo above has the barrels adjustable for point of impact. For some reason I think Marrochi is making the Valmets now, something I might have read.
If I am not mistaken the Valmets have the rifle barrel adjustable for POI. They're now being produced and sold by a Swedish company, maybe Tikka? The Remington 3200 and the Kreighoffs have the same locking system as the Valmets and Tikkas.
As is usual here, I learn a few things and then I set off to see what else I can uncover. Drillings are a subject that is very-much on the fringe of the gun world (IMHO) and while I can't really justify any need for one, I still find them appealing on several levels. The biggest of those is simply the level of quality that most were made too (ahh those Germans!) and then... the utility of perhaps having one for "special occasions" (which likely includes showing it off to your friends). Like with so-many things for me, I need to sit with something for a while and slowly do the analysis on it (I'm sorry, I'm just wired that way. No changing that now). I'm usually very deliberate in my actions (& my purchases) which is clearly a vestige of growing up in 1960s Appalachia. Frugal to a fault and pretty hard-headed too. But...I've come to understand what I like and don't like about the various options (& there are plenty).
I'm not a fan of the highly engraved versions and I don't want or need a scope or even a scope mount, simple and efficient is the key (at least for me) on this subject. You hear German guns compared to coo-coo clocks and for my tastes, that comparison is apt. I'm not knocking the level of skill and effort those engravings require but they're just not for me. The English approach to gun decor has always appealed to my sense of form following function. The WWII Luftwaffe guns are almost perfect in my estimation, as they adhere to that minimalist approach.
It seems that they even have their own specialty dealers, and Gunsinternational is fairly loaded with them. There are even left-handed versions that I have found (!), not cheap but they do exist. At the moment, an early gun with hammers and damascus tubes would be just about perfect in my humble estimation & now I just need to find it. All seem to mostly have the bigger 9.3x74R rifle cartridge, but I can work around that one with a sub-caliber insert to suit my needs. I would think a .22 Magnum or even a .22 Hornet would be about perfect. Functional (& more-modern) versions can be found in about the $2,500 range.
Lloyd3, You mentioned Hammer Drillings, saying "all seem to have the bigger 9.3x74R rifle cartridge", while the 9.3x74R is one of the world's great cartridges I think you will find that more of the old hammer drillings are 9.3x72R instead of 9.3x74R. While older, the 9.3x72R is also a great cartridge in the class of 38-55 or 35 Remington, whereas the 9.3x74R is in the class of the 375 H&H Magnum Flanged. I find both 22Magnum and 22LR useful in the righthand shot barrels of my drillings (can use the set trigger and automatic rifle sight). I do find a scope essential for my use, however. Mike
Mike, I get it, but I can still shoot with the blade sights on my .22 single shot. Hopefully that still translates to being able to use the rifle sights on a drilling.
Lloyd3 the reason for the comment is more modern drillings have the rifle barrel selector arranged so the rear sight stands up when the rifle barrel is selected, and the front trigger (rifle/right shot barrel) is single set. Drillings without scope, but with insert barrel often have a device (vizier Sperrer?) that holds the rear sight up when the right barrel (and set trigger) is selected. Mike
Thankyou for that! On the older guns (hammered), I'm assuming that the leaf sight for the rife is a manual selection process. Also, that 9.3x72R round you mention is indeed fairly common in the early guns. How hard is it to convert that to a smaller caliber round in one of these rifles? Something like a .22 Magnum or a Hornet would be perfection for how I'd anticipate it's general use. I would presume an insert of some type is employed, do you have any sense of where something like that might be sourced? A German gunsmith somewhere perhaps?
Lloyd3, Lining the rifle barrel of a drilling generally doesn't work out too well because it has been regulated to shoot the larger bullet to the point of impact governed by the sights. Also, a 22 Mag cartridge is rim fire, and the liner would need to be off set at the chamber end. What Works very well is an Einstecklauf( EL) (insert barrel) in the right hand shot barrel, chambered for 22LR or 22 Mag. These are adjustable for point of impact and leave the rifle barrel available for use with full loads or light, and squib loads. Common light handloads for 9.3x72R would have around a 200-grain bullet from 1200 to 1600 fps. Mike
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/NZ1ObKL.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/sPj6W5o.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/pVqqkvpp/Cape-gun.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1262/mF8Jow.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3594/BOxtQQ.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1486/UmGSI4.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1251/ZQlIF8.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1979/KEncNP.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5393/jGY58X.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6562/cVWfxg.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/764/C3gith.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9640/E8VvYt.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/332/XG9jHC.jpg)