A Belgian lady contacted me through Dave with questions about her Grandfather's Reilly. The pictures she sent were not the best but I summarized what it was about:
-- 12 ga SxS Shotgun
-- EM Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London & rue Scribe Paris; Made at 16, New Oxford Street.
-- SN 25044 - dated to May 1883.
-- Originally proofed for Black Powder in London; reproofed for Nitro in London after 1904
-- A&D Box Lock patent use #2189.
-- Action made by Joseph Brazier Ashes.
-- highly engraved in English rose & scroll
-- Westley Richards style top lever and doll's head
-- Damascus barrel in annular crolle pattern. Extractors
-- Unusual stock with half pistol grip (not seen on Reilly 12 bore shotguns) and the gun has sling swivels.. . .both very much in continental/French style.

Reilly advertised Brazier locks in the 1862 London exposition at something like £5 extra but I've never actually seen a Reilly with Brazier locks or actions. Given the amount of engraving, the Brazier Ashes action, the fine barrel, this looks like a custom best gun. The Belgian lady said it was the property of an English lord who sold to her grandfather about 1928. I know there is some controversy over whether a box lock can be a best gun but this one just might make the grade.

Would appreciate comments from anyone who is familiar with Joseph Brazier Ashes actions in the 1880's. Brazier must have been licensed to make it by Westley-Richards

That would be 3 Iron British Best by any standard Gene.

Serious question….how did you ascertain that Brazier made this action? Is there a specific mark on the outside of the action that indicates this?

I believe it reads on the water-table??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Great close up. Thank you.

I'll try to get her to send better pictures. They are Christian Lebanese origin (well-grandfather was) who came to Europe in the 1920's when France had the Lebanon and Syria mandate. The grandfather apparently bought the gun in Lebanon in the 1920's and brought it with him with his Belgian or French wife. The Englishman who sold it said he had sent it back to Reilly to be serviced and customized to his specifications (date unknown but most likely to 295 Oxford Street between 1904-1912 bankruptcy). Her father is now 84 and cleans the gun twice a week. Speaks French as a native tongue...much better than English. Fine sounding people. (I lived in Brussels for 3 years in the 1980's). I haven't seen many box locks in this across the board quality but was most curious about the Brazier action.

edit: The way the gun is configured in continental style with half pistol grip and sling swivels, I would bet it was special ordered in Paris at 2 rue Scribe by a Frenchman not an English lord. Which would explain its presence in Lebanon in the 1920's. But....whatever.

One of our forum members, mc, has 2 Greener A&D guns both marked Joseph Brazier Ashes on the action under the bottom plate.

Greener certainly had a licence from Westley Richards to build A&D guns, that is mentioned in the Facile Princeps Patent litigation. As Greener had already bought a licence from Westley Richards it prevented him from arguing that the A&D was not an original invention.

As I understand it, the firm that put their name on the gun and sold it as “theirs” was the one who had to have the licence, so if Reilly had a licence from Westley Richards Brazier may not have needed one. Westley Richards would get their 15 shillings per gun royalties in any event.

As to whether a boxlock can be a best gun, W. W. Greener would build you a best sidelock if you insisted but made it clear that that he regarded the boxlock as a better action and generally built all his very best guns as boxlocks.

In William Evans 1895 (?) catalogue he shows a price range but all grades including the best at £47/10/- can be ordered as either sidelock or boxlock.

My Edwinson Green BLE, specially ordered in 1894, had Whitworth chopper lump barrels, Tudor Rose chiselled fences, and profuse engravings. It was £35 plus 3 guineas surcharge for the Whitworth barrels and I would rate it as a best gun in any company.

Thanks Mr. Para. That is a very interesting and apt observation.

I believe Reilly like Greener must have had a license from Westley Richards. There are about 7 existing Reilly's built from 1881 to 1888 it would seem on the Westley Richards type top lever/doll's head. None of them have any W-R markings.

In addition, thanks also for your comment on Box-locks and "best gun". I think I will tell the correspondent that it is a consensus that this should be considered a "best gun" from Reilly based on the quality of the build, its components and engraving.

Gene

This is an interesting gun the only connection with WR is the use fee paid .I think brazier was a major player in mfg.guns for a lot of gun companys and iron mongers from what I have read you could buy locks forging guns in the white or finished guns the outworker system made it where small company's could compete in high quality firearms.

I mis-read a couple of things. WR didn't really begin to promote the Box lock until 1877.
24 March 1877 - The Field:


Greener was absolutely one of the first firms in 1877 to go whole-heartedly into advertising and promoting the "box lock."

21 July 1877 - The Field:


Nevertheless, by 1880 I was under the impression (from Donald Dallas and others) that almost every gunmaker in London were using A&D actions bought in the white from Birmingham. (Reilly didn't get into promoting box locks until 1880.)

But my question about the action has more to do with the doll's head and the top lever. Those characteristic features are what are interesting? I'm not even sure they were protected by a patent or what that entailed. Help needed.

Gene,

WR had patents back to the late 1850s for the top lever and dolls head. These were improved upon over time. This is their first patent TL.

There is also this article from Vic Venters on the WR C-bolt lockup CBolt.

Ken

Here from the Greener “Fine Guns” catalogue (undated but no earlier than 1935 from dates of testimonials) is Greener’s single price for a best gun irrespective of choice of action.

In 1910 it had been 70 Guineas (£73/10/-).

Just more proof that Reilly made Guns about like O'Reillys makes auto parts.

More proof brazier supplied more then locks to the trade.i know greener bought A&D guns from brazier and put there name on them

mc,

I have just acquired this very early W.W. Greener A&D boxlock non ejector and its serial number 19886 indicates it was built in 1878. It has the early style round cocking levers.

Sadly it has been sleeved (it bears the early SLEEVED marks externally at the breeches). The original black powder marks have disappeared with the original barrels and it appears to have been nitro proofed in 1939 but then sleeved in 1961.

I have taken the bottom plate off and cannot find an action maker’s mark. Whereabouts on your 2 is the Brazier marking?

I had a John Dickson conversion stamped Brazier Patent. Also have a Needham needle fire with Brazier marked receiver. Brazier did many things other than locks.

Under the action plate on the frame cross member

Thanks, I will have a closer look.

H. CLARKE & SONS 12-BORE 'ANSON & DEELEY 1875 PATENT' SINGLE-BITE SNAP-ACTION BOXLOCK NON-EJECTOR, serial no. 9683, circa 1880, 30 1/8in. nitro reproved (in 1983) damascus barrels, the rib engraved 'H. CLARKE & SONS. MIDLAND GUN WORKS. LEICESTER.', and with acanthus scroll detailing at the breech-end, 2 1/2in. chambers, bored approx. imp. cyl. and 3/4 choke, Anson & Deeley patent single-bit barrel-cocking hammerless action, patent no. 1756 of 11th May 1875, use number 1147, the action flats signed 'JOSEPH BRAZIER ASHES.', Westley richards patent toplever, automatic safety with gold-inlaid 'SAFE' detail, carved leaf fences, fine beaded border and acanthus scroll engraving, retaining very slight traces of colour-hardening and renewed finish, 13 1/4in. figured stock, weight 6lb. 4oz

LOT 6958 in Holt's current sealed bid sale. An early A&D without bottom bolts into the lumps.

Interesting. I know that patent use numbers are not a reliable indicator of age of a gun; unless they are.
-- The above Clarke & Sons, Midlands Gun Works SN 9683 dated circa1880 has A&D use # 1147.
-- The earliest Reilly box lock in my database, SN 22482 dated Jan 1880 per my chart, is use # 1156 .

I am curious about the Westley Richards patented top lever. Was that patent still current in 1880?

My 1878 (the year after the WWG advert you showed on the page before) Greener A&D has Anson and Deeley patent use number 1206, but bear in mind that they may have been issued to different makers in blocks of numbers and could well overlap when it comes to the completion of individual guns.

The number 2 is boldly engraved as shown on the action flat and also the fore-end iron. Graham Greener tells me it was the number 2 gun of a pair and they were then Greener’s Grade 3.

That would make it a 30 Guinea gun. It seems that A&D boxlock non ejectors were priced at something of a premium at the time of their introduction as being the “latest thing” compared to Greener’s pricing of similar guns in the 1930’s despite the loss in value of money in the intervening 50 years.

30 Guineas in 1878 would be the equivalent of 53 Guineas in 1938.

My greener is earlier then your gun mine has the large square ,angled cocking levers and I think the safe button is a little different mine is closer to 19000 number

Round cocking bars (distinctly over-engineered) were a feature of early (if not the earliest) Anson and Deeley guns.

I have mainly seen them on single lump top-bite only Westley Richards style guns such as this early Edwinson Green serial number 2701 (pre1881) with patent use number 1907. It has a top safe, and there are no obvious manufacturer’s marks other than Edwinson C. Green on the action sides.

mc, does your early Greener A&D have the same ball fences as mine, rounded down at the front edge to meet the barrel exterior?

In Graham Greener’s book at page 93 he shows a similar 30 Guinea A&D gun with rounded fences (but with no evident safety catch unless it is the same gun shown left hand view at page 95).

To set the record straight, Reilly advertised Brazier locks in 1862 for an entra 5£ - a lot of money back then. Per above, 25044 was mentioned as the earliest Reilly with a Brazier action. This isn't right. There is an early extant Reilly with Brazier actions, SN 13688 - dated per the chart to 1865. Holt's did not publish a photo of the inscription.

http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/searchresults.asp?sale_no=A0314&st=D&pg=24
A 20-BORE SINGLE-BARRELLED ROTARY-UNDERLEVER HAMMERGUN, serial no. 13688, Original rifle. 28in. nitro reproved (in 2014) octagonal to polygonal to round barrel, top flat with bold acanthus scroll detailing and engraved 'E.M. REILLY & CO. NEW OXFORD STREET. LONDON.', 2 3/4in. chamber, bored approx. true cyl. choke, rotary underlever with ring detail, carved percussion fence and sculpted standing breech, rebounding back-action lock, action flats marked 'JOSEPH BRAZIER', best bold acanthus scroll engraving with ropework and scrolling borders, brushed finish, 14 1/8in. figured stock with steel buttplate, fore-end with carved shell engraving and sculpted horn finial, weight 5lb. 8oz.