A few years ago I bought a war-trophy Saint-Etienne SxS 12 gauge as an extra gun for guests. It was probably made in late 1920's, has "Wonder" on the top lever, probably a gun made by Ravat, a Saint Etienne company which marketed "Wonder" bicycles at the time using the same font. It definitely has the V-C inverted top lever screw "Helice-style" top lever. It was discussed on this line:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=481696

I rarely use the gun. It's choked very tight .026, .026. However, because of the shortage of 2 1/2" shells, I've recently been shooting the gun using 2 3/4 inch ammo because It's built like a tank. My problem is even after extensively deep cleaning the gun, and putting a couple of hundred rounds through it, it is so difficult to break that I sometimes have to use a table to assist. The top lever is so tight a gorilla might have a problem with it. Looking at the thinning bluing on the left barrel where you have to grip it to break it, it's pretty obvious that the original owner had the same problem.

I'm not a gunsmith but what might I do to loosen things up?

Is it just as hard to open with the chambers empty as it is with them loaded? Fired vs unfired?

How about closing on empty chambers vs loaded?

Pretty much same-o same-o loaded, unloaded, empty chambers, full chambers. I may try to take a video of me wrestling with that top lever trying to break the gun.

I don't know then. I had problems with a gun that was very hard to load and unload but easy without shells. The chamber was super tight and the sizer on my reloader was not getting the job done.

Perhaps your extractors are dragging badly?

Gene,

Is it still as tight to open with the forend removed?

When it is dismantled is the top lever still very stiff to move?

The top lever on my Cashmore hammer gun broke and I had to fit a replacement spring. Not being a gunsmith, I got the spring a little too tight so that gun is a little difficult to open because the lever has to be pushed a little harder than normal, but once that is done the gun opens easily. This does not sound like your problem which appears to be resistance to pivoting on the hinge pin or the extractors are not moving freely.

Taking the forend off - (dismantling the gun) - it is still very stiff - Barrels rotate with difficulty; top lever still very tight and difficult even with barrels off. There looks to be two problems: A very strong top lever spring and possibly it is binding at the hinge pin.

I haven't been down to Roanoke area for awhile. Maybe I'll drive my new 2 dr. Jeep Willys down there and pay Gunter Pfommer a visit.

If you can take the stock off and devise a suitable spring clamp for the top lever spring take the spring off and see if the top lever then moves the bolt freely. If it does you need a lighter spring. If not something is binding - look for wear marks.

The barrel rotation problem sounds like someone may have over tightened it. Again look for wear marks at points of contact.

Take the extractors out and see if they run freely?

Thanks. . .I'll see what I can do. I'm not adverse to digging into a 1967 Triumph motorcycle engine; I can disassemble it from memory. Haven't tried much with a shotgun. But, a boxlock can't be rocket science.

Gene,

I suggest you first go to YouTube and search for the Midway video where Jack Rowe tells you how to dismantle a Boxlock shotgun.

Even if it doesn’t tell you anything you didn’t already know it is lovely listening to a real old Birmingham gunsmith.

If I remember right, the top lever/spindle is kept in place at the bottom end with a nut. The end of the spindle being threaded.
You can crank the nut down way too tight,,that just pulls the spindle/top lever down even tighter than necessary for needed functioning and makes for hard lever movement.

The spindle has an off set pin just underneath the toplever that engages the lockingbolt to one side of center (left).
Opening the lever pulls the bolt back and allows opening the bbls.

A V spring common to toplever set ups keeps things in tension.
An extra strong replacement top lever spring may be the cause as well. Or one that is slightly too long on the one leg that engages the spindle and binds it when you attempt to open the lever.

That Nut on the end of the spindle shaft is likely a multi grooved affair needing a spanner driver to sit over the shaft to get at it to loosen/tighten it.

You should be able to see all of this with the stock off and trigger plate removed

...says every bodger who ends up bringing a partially disassembled gun with buggered screws to his gunsmith, saying, "My dumb brother-in-law took this apart, and I need you to fix it "

Come to think of it, that's also how a lot of old motorcycles end up being sold as "basket cases".

What you really need is this:

Gunther Pfrommer Gunworks
2954 Hopkins Rd
Rocky Mount, VA 24151

And perhaps some of this:

I'll watch the videos - always good to do that and the internet is an amazing place these days for education.

Since this is pretty obviously a copy of V-C's Helice-Grip, Helicobloc, Helistop (all names trademarked by V-C . . .assume they are essentially the same top lever(. . .here's the V-C catalog illustration of the top lever. I'll take some pictures as I go along and thanks and if I reach a point I don't feel comfortable...will stop.

OK. here is my check-off list.

Cocking rods free to move?
Ejector or extractor rods free to move
Di-chem the forend knuckle to check wear pattern
Di-chem forend end joint pin to check wear pattern
Di-chem breech face to check wear pattern

Starting from there, we can move forward

Footnote. The gun when I got it was in pretty pristine condition for a 90 year old. There are no obvious wear marks from external inspection on the lumps; extractors are free and easy. Cocking rods haven't been checked. But the tension in the top lever might not be related to them (and do NOT get your finger caught in that "Helice" lump.).

This gun has not been shot regularly...maybe because of this very problem? How this came to be in a 1920's gun from France, probably buried or hidden during the occupation, but guns are guns, stories are stories...

On the Jack Rowe video, I'm not sure I'm ready to embark on an exploration of the internals of this SxS, not really understanding what I'm seeing except the mechanicals, and the vice on my workbench is not really optimal for gunsmithing.

(It's funny, watching Jack take out a wood screw is excruciating stress and I think of the time I broke off a screw extractor trying to back out the points screw with buggered head in a 1967 Triumph TT-Special with cast aluminum case and had to have it ground out...with no sweat).

Still thinking of driving down to Gunther and asking him to relieve the chokes too (I took the gun down with me last time ....should have had him look at it then).

Haven't seen Gunter for a couple of years so on a gorgeous spring day, drove down to Rocky Mount and hung out with him for a couple of hours, leaving the "Wonder" Saint-Etienne gun with him.

Some surprises - the barrels have been rechambered for 2 3/4" shells - without reproof, obviously done in USA. Gun is very tight and in good shape - he'll change the chokes currently .026/.026 to .009/.018. His preliminary conclusion about the sticky opening is it's caused by the firing pins. These are very long thin firing pins, not retractable; they are getting stuck in the shell primers. Cocking rods are free; extractors free. Hinge pin is a little tight but better tight than not.

While he's at it he'll add a pad to increase LOP another 3/4".

On the way back I stopped by Bedford, VA meaning to visit with MacNabb"s Bob Ney; the address on his card, however, is his house and I didn't feel like disturbing him there.

All in all, a pleasant day and you always learn something from him. It was worth the trip.

Sounds like a good way to spend the day.

Just to finish this story. . Drove down to Rocky Mount today to pick-up the "Wonder" from Gunter. He relieved the chokes, installed an orange pad increasing LOP by 3/4", shortened the firing pins. It looks to be a much better gun and certainly the ergonomics feel better. No chance to fire it down there but based on feel along, I think it points better and it certainly breaks easier - It's tight - not silky smooth but I don't have to hammer at it. This is my back-up gun for when the 6 former special forces guys descend for Memorial Day - in 2016 I ran out of guns - but It points really well and we'll give it a try next go-round. (Never could hit squat before - better use a rifle).



I wish I had you all's expertise. When this was mentioned, Gunter sort of grunted and said, "For tools, start with screwdrivers." He also said a lot of people visit and hang around because they "like to watch gunsmiths work." He doesn't much appreciate that but since I was "picking up" - I wasn't included in the criticism. He also added that it's almost impossible for a "gun smith" to run a retail gun shop - the jobs of selling - promoting and repairing -fixing cannot be intertwined without staff support.

Gunter said he'll be at the Southern next week. I won't make it. But it's worth talking to him. How he wound up in the middle of the Virginia mountains is a question. I asked him. . .got a sort of jumble of reply starting with "economics of real estate." The vagueness of answers may be endemic in the gun-repair community. . not sure of this.

Three weeks ago Virginia and the great valley was a paradise...floating down a corridor of purple - the red bud was out in force and the crab apples like large clumps of pure cotton-color were everywhere. This time it was the Wisteria - purple and white - and the new green of the trees along with the back-country azaleas - purple, white, red, pink and some late blooming white dogwood . I've lived in Virginia for some 50 years - 26 spent abroad of course - and can never count myself as a Virginian. I'm from the Deep South and look for Spanish moss, black water creeks and Savannah's and marshes as my habitat...but on a spring day, in rural Virginia...especially in the Great Valley running from Birmingham to Pennsylvania, with the windows open on the jeep and the smell of new plant and cow funk, mountains to the left and right, trying to figure out the drainage basins of the Shenandoah and James Rivers, it is pretty exhilarating.

As for the video, I looked at it...decided I wasn't really mechanically ready to start down this road. I talk all the time with David Trevallion but am not ready to do my own work other than cosmetic stuff. Can't explain why. But at this age - I'll watch (so to speak).

And as for the South - here is the last performance of "Dixie" by the Ole Miss Band.


I grew up with this - at my (segregated) high school we stood up for "Dixie." The brutality of the culture cannot be denied - I was hitch-hiking from Duke University through South Carolina in the dead of night in 1963 - a Black family picked me up at 11:00 PM and asked me to drive their clapped out station wagon - 100 miles. Afterwards it occurred to me that they were terrified. Not of me - I'll leave it at that.

And yet the Confederacy is my history - My sons don't care - But you cannot understand what it was like growing up in the South in those days. There was a famous book "Mind of the South" which explained it.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1941/04/the-mind-of-the-south/653368/

I took the Saint-Etienne "Wonder" out yesterday for the first time since getting it back from Gunter. Two problems immediately manifested. 1) the gun was still hard to break. 2) using some old ammunition one shell got stuck in the left chamber. In trying to break the gun (using the now accustomed pressure) I bent the extractor.

Now what to do? I don't feel like sending it back to Gunter.

Bring the shotgun to me
I will fix it within 7 years
When you get her back, she will be smooth.
I promise to put lots of shells through her

Mike

Mike, it's on the way. The guy with the goat cart who picked it up, promised that his cousin's sister's Uncle had a clever way to get it to you non FFL. I have a receipt from them; Should be there by Christmas. (Forgot to ask the year).
Gene

Gene,
It shouldn’t take that much effort to open an old Boxlock.

I’d wager my left one that the firing pin on the side of the extractor that is bent in is projecting too far out of the breech face. Send the gun back to Gunter. He can likely straighten out the extractor, and set that pin to the correct projection out of the breech face. He needed to fire the gun after he worked on it, if you rushed him, shame on you, if he didn’t, shame on him. All good gunsmiths are overworked these days, I wouldn’t be too quick blame him, yet. Some ammunition has hard primers, but, never seen shotgun primers be so hard as to impede opening after firing.

Pistols, yes, that can be a thing.

He needs to see what happened.

Best,
Ted

Wish I had saved the cartridge. During Covid I bought some old Federal 2 3/4" 12 gauge shells 1145 fps, thinking I might use them in this (then believed to be) 2 1/2" chambers. Gunter enlightened me that they had been lengthened to 2 3/4" without reproof, no doubt in America.

The Shell case was deformed and as I pulled it out of the chamber, the rim actually detached from the central base of the shell. Perhaps I will go back to Gunter. But the problem of the sticky, hard-to-break gun, appears to be more than the firing pins (which he shortened last time).

Sometimes it takes a gunsmith more than one try.

I have guns I run “old” ammunition in. Most of my “good” doubles (all of them, to me, actually) get fed better, more current stuff.

Your gun features French single proof, fairly stout, but, I’d wager the right one that the Federal load you fed it, is outside the pressure the gun was expected to be used with, day in and day out. The rim separation is more than a bit concerning to me, and, I’d stop using that load in your gun, posthaste. Did the opened shell have a rough, or, torn appearance, up at the business end, after it was fired? Classic symptom of a hot load, fired in a short chamber, or, a steep or stepped forcing cone. The rim separation might indicate a chamber that has suffered a polish that was too great, or, inconsistent.

That should be a good little gun. That design is common as the rain France and Belgium, and I probably handled a hundred of them over the years I was importing French guns. It can be put right, in that I have no doubt.

Best,
Ted

Ted, that "Wonder" gun is stout - side clips and all. It should take about anything. I'm suspecting the cartridge was the problem. There were some bits of rust on it and the husk was distorted after ejection...rim and primer pulled away from the base. But, even after Gunter had shortened the (very thin) firing pins, it was still really stiff to open. That should be looked at before going back to the firing pins.

As mentioned, this is probably a 1920's Saint Etienne gun I speculated was marketed by a well-known manufacturer of bicycles and motorcycles in Saint-Étienne named “Ravat.” Ravat was founded in 1898 and in 1910 came out with a famous bicycle christened “Wonder.”

The problems with the gun are frustrating. It obviously was a war trophy gun, cost a few hundred dollars and was meant to be backup for when my Special Forces comrades came to town for Memorial Day and I needed an extra gun. I hate to discard it, not least because it's part of son's heritage in a way (Grandfather is from Lyon/ Saint-Chamond), but it's costing me more than it's worth. (This said, I don't think I ever said that about a motorcycle so will probably soldier on to a solution). (Or maybe not - I tend to get too stubborn over mechanical stuff; I just don't want to pass on problems to the next possible owner, even for a few hundred $. . after it gets back from Mike down in the panhandle).

Don’t leave your son a broken gun. That, is not a heritage. I know people who have left sons and daughters perfectly good guns with the knowledge that those kids have absolutely zero interest in hunting and shooting, which, is also not a heritage, but, that is a conversation for a different day.

Most guns cost you more than they are worth. Such is the nature of retail, be it guns, cars, groceries, et al. My father was a career Marine, and very sternly warned me that no gun should ever be left broken or nonoperational, his feeling was fix it or destroy it, now. I would prefer it go to an outfit like Numrich, to be used for parts, but, it is still technically being destroyed.

I guess I take the “in for a penny, in for a pound” approach with decent old guns. You might feel different.

Best of luck, at any rate.

Ted

Thanks as always Ted. I hate to give up on this but it might be time. I'll still try to fix it before passing it on. Can't do otherwise ethically.

Thus far, there are a lot of clues pertaining to the problem. It seems evident that the bent extractor problem is due to forcefully opening the gun with a shell stuck in the left chamber. The barrels were a pretty effective lever. Archimedes would understand. Were both barrels fired, or just the left? As Ted says, the extractor can probably be straightened.

Since Gunter has already shortened the firing pins, I'd like to assume a gunsmith of his repute at least checked for correct protrusion. Unfortunately, some gunsmiths do not test fire with live ammo. The old German gunsmith who had a shop near my parent's house had a hole in the floor of his shop so he could test fire guns into a drum of sand in the basement. The first time I saw (and heard) that, he fired a .30-06 into the hole without any warning. It certainly got my attention. The Federal factory loads should be sized to fit any correct chamber dimensions, so the chamber may be undersized (which would be evident when loading), or rough from reamer marks, or pitted. The empty stuck for a reason. Tearing part of the rim off is a real big clue.

You told the Nutty Professor that the opening force was essentially the same whether the gun was loaded or not. Then you said it was somewhat easier to open after Gunter worked on it, but still fairly stiff. Did you mention to him what Kutter said about checking the spring, and checking to see if the spanner nut on the top lever shaft was over-tightened? Those things would account for the stiff top lever. I think Kutter has demonstrated that he is very knowledgeable, so his advice is worthy of attention.

I am also curious if the opening force is somewhat less once the gun is cocked. There isn't a whole lot going on to check. Opening force on the empty gun involves some friction at the knuckle and hinge pin (hence the obsession some have with hinge pin grease), cocking the hammers (cocking rods and compressing main springs), and moving the extractor outward (which you already said moved freely prior to bending it). Adding shells to the equation adds the friction or force to extract the empties, and possible firing pin drag, (which has supposedly been professionally addressed). A loaded gun can also be more difficult to open and close if the critical rim recess (headspace) dimension is a tiny bit too shallow, allowing the case heads to drag on the breech face.

Finally, you might need a gunsmith who has a hole in the floor and a drum of sand in the basement. Bring ear plugs.

McLean, I remember a LONG time ago I was at Alphabet Headquarters teaching the folks
there some special stuff. They were so interested and helpful, twas a good week there.

Seems like all the students were named Smith and Jones, so I just left training certificates
with the names not filled in


Mike

Argo, thanks for the link to the Rebels band. In spite of the band being from Ole Miss, they were excellent. It makes me weepy to hear Dixie and I wonder if reconstruction will ever end. I love to hear the Tigers play "Hold That Tiger" and the Longhorns play "Yellow Rose Of Texas."

Long Horns

Tigers

Of course, the LSU band is the best.

By the way, I can't count the number of brand new European double rifles and guns I had to finish fitting for clients so they could open them. A lot of them needed the forearm fitted because they couldn't get them off. I once had a client send me a pair of new Merkels because he couldn't open them. I could, with a rubber mallet.