Grouse Guy's question about measuring cast got me thinking about my upcoming trip to Tulsa in a few weeks. I've never been there, but I'm going with a goal in mind to buy a 12b-2" gun. Given that, maybe it would be interesting to see what other folks bring in the way of tools to inspect a potential purchase. I will load my pockets or a shoulder bag with a bore light, tape measure, fish scale, and magnifying glass for sure. I may bring a bore scope, but I'd leave it in the truck until I really absolutely needed it, and I don't see that happening. What else to carry around?

As often as I see dealers selling high priced guns that haven't seen a brush and patch in the bore in years, I am tempted to bring a take down rod with brush and some patches. I suppose some dealers don't want to know what is under the dust and lint, but if it is bad enough, and I was serious about the gun, I'd be cautious about dealing for a fuzzy-bore gun that a dealer would not let me wipe out.

I don't have barrel measuring gauges, so, as much as I would would like to know, I'll have to take my chances. I wish I had a plug that could measure chamber length. I may try to make one, but not sure if I can do it with sufficient precision.

What sort of tools do others take?

uh...bring cash...

o yeah...and wear rubber boots...

Snap caps in the gauges you are interested in buying, and a wooden dowell 3/4" dia and a bungee cord looped, to suspend the barrels and "ring them"-- Any dealer who will not allow me to use the snap caps to test firing pins, sears, safety set and timed ejection will NOT get my money, nor will one who won't allow the barrels to be "rung" and scoped for rivelling, and checked with bore gauges (Hosford's) for wall thinness, will also NOT get into my wallet. shortencaution is a watchword, the gun trading world is full of crooks--RWTF

Snap caps are an interesting idea. I wonder if mine will fit in a 2" chamber.

My experience is the dealers appreciate a pair of those cheap brown cotton gloves.

Beg, borrow or steal a skeetz type bore gauge. While it won't measure mwt it will at least tell you how much honing was done if any. Gil

i don't even walk the crummy local gun shows without my bore gauge....with basic knowledge about original bore sizes, reproofs, metric conversions, etc., it can provide enough information to tell you whether to keep talking....or start walking.

will accurately tell you what the chokes are too....a lot of knowledge for not much money.

best regards,

tom

Bore gauge and chamber gauge(s) and snap caps.

Brent,

Make sure they aren’t over 2”. I have a pair of A-Zoom that are 2 1/4” and they won’t work for my 2” guns.

Ken

Take a piece of one thousandth inch (.001") feeler gauge - if the gun closes on that, it's off the face.

Brent,
Along with the usual things mentioned, I'll include digital calipers as well as a three piece rod and brushes with patches. Long ago I avoided a mistake by discovering that baby/talcum powder was used to hide barrel defects. You would think that someone serious about selling the gun would have the bores clean and shiny. It always amazes me how many are presented with rust bloom in the barrels!
Karl

Thanks for all of these suggestions. I have the cleaning rod and patches set aside already.
My snap caps are 1.75" long so they will work in any chamber (unfortunately). But, Ken, that your's don't work in a 2" gun is interesting. What size are they at the muzzleward end? I think I could make a muzzle gauge if I knew that dimension.

A Skeetz muzzle gauge would be really sweet to have on hand. I agree it would tell me lots of things. However, I don't have one. Gil sent me an ebay sight that sells them but they are out of stock (and kinda pricey), so I'm watching ebay for a used one to show up. No luck so far.

Feeler gauges. Great idea. I can do that.

Gloves are a great idea. I have a pair of those $0.99 cotton jersey gloves handy.

Brent.
I use the digital ID/OD calipers to check muzzle/chamber among other things. These days, there are so many things to check!
Karl

Galzan choke and chamber gauge tape measure.snap caps.Good luck on the 2 inch gun some nice Spanish 2 inch guns out there.

Thanks pipeliner - I'm going to probably hold to English or Scottish. I don't know much about Spanish, but I know I really like the way vintage British guns handle.

you guys are jokin around, right?

i use ta set up at gun shows back the eighties until around 2000...mostly in new york...

if you pulled any of this crap back then, the promoter of the show would quietly escort you to the door...

with the advent of the internet and firearms specific web sites, i gave up doing shows...just about the time i began to loose patience with trying to do bidness face to face with the public...

best things that ever happened for hobby gun dealers like myself are gunbroker and gunsinternational...

Oh, so we're just meant to take a gun dealer's word for everything?

OK.........

Can you imagine taking Ed's word for ANYTHING?

Serious dealers, looking to sell the type gun you are looking for often expect a higher level of evaluation of their guns. But the one tool you really need, looking for a 2" gun is going to be barrel wall thickness measuring of some type. They, 2" guns barrels all started out thin, and you must find a gun with more than minimum barrels wall thickness to still be in proof. Not that dealers pay that much attention to "proof" in the US. High dollar guns deserve a higher level of evaluation and guns made with thin barrels when new do as well.

You have a purse?

Why don’t you get a monocle while you’re at it.


_____________________________
Imagine . . . no possessions.

I'd love to have a way of measuring wall thickness, but that isn't very realistic for a guy that buys only an occasional shotgun. It would be nice if someone rented the tools at the show.

I carry a cheap choke gauge, chamber gauge a small measuring tape as well as 12 and 20 bore snap caps whenever I'm shopping.
You would be surprised how many people will tell you a gun has X barrels when are actually shorter. Also can measure LOP.

Brent check with Mark @ MBABLLC. I usually see him when I'm at the show. He may have a wall thickness gauge he brings. He sets up on top.

Thanks. I'll look for him and see if I can find him.

I think I'll make a chamber gauged. I thought there might be go no-go gauges, but a piece of brass will be easy enough to use as a chamber gauge.

Under the British Rules of Proof are there specific MWT per gauge or is it only a range of bore sizes per gauge that are deemed proof appropriate? When the gun is furnished in the white for testing, and chamber size and bore size are determined and it passes the proof shot, is there anything else to be done? Was there a requirement that finished guns(barrels blued or blackened) required further proof testing? There was talk at one time that on the 2" 12 barrels that occasionally the barrels after passing proof were further struck by the gunmaker to save weight, if that was the case, then the barrel had been altered which escaped further testing despite an illegal end around the law. However if the barrel hadn't been altered after proof load fired and say the MWT was below what we now feel is safe, but the gun survived proof load, the Brits would deem since it survived proof it was safe to shoot service loads. British guns would still be considered in proof if the bore size remained within a certain range, was free of pits, and chambers hadn't been altered. This is the alleged reason that some barrel makers made barrels on the tighter range of gauge so that honing could be done as long as removed metal didn't exceed the largest diameter of the gauge. Correct me if I am in error. Gil

You can find snapcaps and other possibly useful items at https//fakebullets.com.

There is no MWT rules per say. Guns with MWT of .015-.020" pass proof. Proof is lost when internal barrel bores are altered. Like making the chambers longer, adding screw in choke tubes, honing the barrels so much that they become enlarged by .010". Striking the barrels is external to the bore and should not take them out of proof. I think it is a odd distinction but it does make some sense. Proof just declares the barrels can withstand a load and are still on face with no damage afterwards. They did not blow up, bulge or suffer damage to the action or locking.

Dents get removed, which cause the barrels to need re-striking and refinishing. If you watch closely, many guns end up at auction after having a dent removed but not yet re-blacked. The owner finds out how thin they will be and decides to dump them. They are still in proof and hence still legal to sell. But they now have thin barrels and are more of a dent risk than before. Thin barrels, in good shape will give good service and be safe to shoot, with proper pressure loads. Hence my never ending issues of what is safe and how to make safe shells. Worse, with the spot shortages of powder it seems like when ever I find a safe, proper load that powder suddenly becomes unavailable for the next two years.

I have several guns with thin barrels and I pay much more attention to where the dent is than just how thin they are. A thin area 20+" from the breach is one thing and one at 10" is a very different thing. Pressure is great, the closer to the breech, and my fingers never venture 20" out but do 10" out. So it is how thin and location, location, location. I bought a very nice hammer gun several years ago which had thin areas that were in the choke areas, 28" out, on 30" barrels. One barrel was .012" after some previous owner had the choke removed. Why you needed to alter the chokes on a gun which came with cylinder I can not figure. Perhaps he was removing pitting. Anyways the barrels measured .024+" in every other spot but did have a very thin muzzle. I sold the gun and explained the risk was much great for denting a muzzle with such in muzzle areas.

Was the thin spot an attempt at jug choking?

Jon, thanks for your considered response. Gil

"with the advent of the internet and firearms specific web sites, i gave up doing shows...just about the time i began to loose patience with trying to do bidness face to face with the public..."

anyone who begins the process of a business transaction, with a negative attitude, is a deal killer...and is not worth ones time...

Must be hard when your reputation precedes you on the internet Ed. Was it a flameout or just a lack of new customers?

I think it was a clean out of pitting on the barrels. In the thinnest area you could still see a few traces of pitting. It is a shame because pitting there was from lack of cleaning or poor cleaning routine. Too many owners seem to only spray on some dreadful WD-40 concoction and wipe down with some nasty tee shirt remnant. Never even touching the bore. I see chambers rusted, and bores like black iron sewer pipes. In a generation any reference to sewer pipes will be mean less to those who grew up with PVC. Guess we will have to say like a set of old barrels. !

I do not believe any of the posters here are showing a negative attitude.
The OP is wishing to learn how to check out what may be a well used product, which may have suffered the ravages of time, user abuse or an incompetent workman.
Such an approach is entirely reasonable.

Jon: Your input on this was especially interesting, and as usual, right on the money. Thanks for taking the time to do it thoroughly. the other Gil

well, ky jon, my reputation on the internet among buyers and sellers is excellent...

on gunbroker alone, it is approaching 17000 positive feedbacks over a 20 year period...

do you have any feedback to share with us...from anywhere? by anyone? about anything?

Mike, I agree- if some gun show promoter tried to "evict" me after I paid my entrance fee at the door, because I had the cojones to question any table dealers word, there would be a real brewha-ha.. Case in point- Local show at fairgrounds, Hastings MI 16 years ago. Table dealer had a few fair to midlin' small bore side=by-sides on his table, one was a later Series Ithaca NID 20-- SST, AE, VR= nice wood, but barrels looked "odd' to me, so I asked permission to pick it up, nice feel, but when I laid it back on his table, and pulled out my small Stanley pocket tape to check the barrel length- the dealer acted flustered, and spluttered, Oh that's OK, no need to measure, they are the standard 28" that comes with the optional VR on later series NID Ithacas- OK- but I was already "there" guess what- the taped a 25&5/8" even--what a surprise. I told the dealer I'll pass- he was asking $2500.00-- but would take my Stanley tape to the lumberyard back home for "Recallibration"--RWTF

Ed, your reputation among us, is not so well renowned. Your nick name instead of being Rocketman , ought to be Tourchman for your history of torching beaters, to make them look pretty for suckers to buy and them get defensive when called out about it. As to feedbacks on GunBroker, I have seen many negative feedback just disappear, so I put very little value in feedbacks when the negative ones get purged too often. The term Caveat Emptor ought to be the first words in every transaction, and might be your family motto. Do you understand how I feel about you better now. If you have any questions I would be glad to continue.

ky, oh, hit souns like you wanna play...

well then, i will repeat my question to you:

"do you have any feedback to share with us...from anywhere? by anyone? about anything?"

hell, we dont even know who or what you are...

Go away, Ed. Just go away. I wouldn't buy anything from you, ever, under any conditions.

prof...not sellin here...

but if i were, it would certainly not be to the likes of you...

not even if you sent dave your back dues, for the priv ledge of pon tif ah catin here...

knives out...

come on boys, cant member last time we had a good joust...

The OP asked a reasonable question.

For no reason that I can fathom, Mr. Good (if that's your real name), you are behaving like an ass.

Going to be hard to find a 2inch gun here in the states. With the lead ban coming you might search gunbroker.uk.I have handled a couple Skimin andWoods nice guns.Also the Arrieta Light Game gun was imported by Jack its a very nice 2inch sidelock.Arrieta2 on the site might know one that can be purchase.I do use a 2 1/2 inch gun for teal and doves over tanks here in Texas.Good luck.Pipeliner

Thanks. I have found about 6 for sale so far. 2 are H&Hs, and I won't pursue them. One has a single trigger. The others are in play.

I've got a 6# 12 that I love, and a few 6.5# guns as well, but I am thinking more like 5.5 lbs, if the fit is there.

I know about the existence of the Arrietas but I'm looking for something more vintage and British for no particular reason than that's what I like. A big part of this is just to have something different to try for a while. I could also look for a 20 or a 16, but the 2" 12 just has bitten me hard enough to ignore those options for now (though there is a pretty nice 20 gauge Wesley with drop locks out there). This is as much about the hunt for the gun as it will be about hunting with the gun.

I'm watching the English auctions at least a little. The prices are right, but the time commitment (ie, waiting for it to deliver) is a bit tough.

You could go outside of the box and find a English 12/20.

Not sure I even know what a 12/20 is. A 12 bore on a 20 gauge frame? A 12 gauge with 20" barrels"? Does Ed sell it?

Lang

Francis, just because a barrels "rings" does not mean that it is solid. I have used a .002 feeler gage along the bottom rib of a few guns that I was able to insert the feeler gage in. Also in rust bluing I have seen bubbles coming out along the bottom rib of so-called ringed barrels.

Edster- "You got to accentuate de positive, eliminate de negative-etc etc etc"" Old Phil Harris sung it best, IMO RWTF..

David,
Instead of the barrels, I check for loose ribs by tapping the ribs themselves with a bolster on my pocketknife and listen for a "hollow" rather than solid sound. Enen then a small loose section might show up, evidenced by either bubbles in the water tank or leakage when the barrels are removed from it.
Mike

uh guys, even i know the bottom rib is there as a filler only and has no structural value...

so who cares of it is loose in spots...so long as it looks nice...

and this barrel ringing game is nothing more than a ploy to chisel down the price...

gun show shoppers, aka tire kickers are there for entertainment and rarely buy anything cept a little ammo and beef jerky...

oh yeah, then there are always the hot dogs...

so, go kill a couple of hours at the show and then go pick mama up at the mall...

EDD s comments should let you know what kind of crap he is hawking and how he views you as a potential customer .

sum of you guys remind me of why i gave up doing gun shows 20 years ago...

Edd look in the mirror

Maybe that should tell you something Ed. Maybe you should move on down the road. You have never added anything useful here.

Hahahaha, now that is some seriously funny shit Prof!

Ed's name is number 5 on the 2023 Doublegunshop donor list.... while you continue your one man campaign to defund this site. It certainly appears that Ed is quite a bit more useful than you.

My question is, why does he continue to subsidize your presence here??? And why would anyone wish to assist you with gun show gun evaluation tips and tools? I won't.

well, prof, much of the ho cus poke us you describe in this thread is irrevelent...

i have been trading in doublegons for about 40 years now, with many hundreds of double guns passing thru my hands...

the problems you image with doublegons, which actually affect the safety and shooting qualities of guns, are so rare, that your apparent concerns are borderline paranoia or more likely used car buying subterfuge...

follow this simple rule, if it appears to be too good to be true, then it probably is not...

and dont act like a thief...

oh yeah, and remember this, people do business with other people they like...

which is why you and i should never do business...

Being a consumer and having the ability to check the safty of an item you are buying is a great proactive way to protect your self and other people around you.i have purchased pre owned cars and have taken them to a specialist who looks for potential problems if the seller objects deal is off .you would think a honest person would want to know if there was a possible danger.

You occasionally hear this motto tossed around by merchants: "An educated consumer is our best customer." Obviously, some gun dealers prefer dealing in ignorance, either their own or their customers'.

well, now, we are gittin to sum rele vant stuff...

- using the same atributes for evaluating a used car vs a used doublegon is nonsense...

- ignorant buyers and sellers are to be avoided, unless they are willing to be educated...

- experience is the best teacher...

and here is a new one...

human beings reveal themselves in very sub tile ways...

after a lot of experience, one learns a lot about people...

enough to avoid those who are potential trouble makers...

for example, there are some users of this fine forum who have revealed themselves to be cronic malcontents...

and hence, trouble makers...

Wow. A very good original post sullied by school yard bickering.

Chronic- NOT Cronic "Eddie" Your improper and diction reveal you to be a clodhopper who thinks he is funny and amusing by adopting a "Cornpone dialect">> Give it a rest. RWTF

Chronic- NOT Cronic "Eddie" Your improper spelling and diction reveal you to be a clodhopper who thinks he is funny and amusing by adopting a "Cornpone dialect">> Give it a rest. RWTF

well gee foxie...ah cant be bodered via sum bodie elses spellin rules...who was dis guy webster, any hows...

ah callin erm like ah seein erm an spellin erm how day soun...

hal, the premise of this thread is predicated on a negative approach to what could be a positive experience for both buyer and seller...

too many guys like the prof and others take the fun out of gun shows...

In keeping with the positive question at the start of this thread, what tools would I take, and have actually taken to Gun shows and the local Cabelas gun room, etc.

An exhaustive list of absolutely everything, probably overkill:

-A very Bright flashlight. (Useful depending on lighting)

-Cleaning rod with patches, like you I have been amazed looking down barrels that were not cleaned since last firing, I doubt it was deliberate to hide something, but is indicative of a failure to care enough. I have experienced this even with some sellers I like and now consider friends.

-Chamber Gauge for whatever gauge you are intending to buy (long term having chamber gauges in at least 12/16/& 20 is very useful)(note some chambers were made so tight they appear short on chamber gauges, but when checked with a Skeets gauge show to be good)

-Bore Gauge to verify bore and degree of choke, and chambers sometimes (again a tool most should have and worth the investment)(without a wall thickness gauge being able to measure bores can help)

-Tape Measure

-Snap caps (though many gun shows put trigger locks or zip ties on the triggers)(if 2in is your focus then cut one down or have one short enough)(used for checking safety, trigger, strikers, and ejectors

-Manson gauge for wall thickness or better an Ultrasonic Wall Thickness Gauge (the Manson gauge is better than nothing and was my go to tool - but a quality Ultrasonic Wall Thickness Gauge provides better data more easily, though at a stiff price)

-Loop of 550 cord for hanging Manson gauge and to hang barrels to ring.

-A postal scale (to weigh overall gun and to weigh the barrels separately)(I weigh all my barrels which from experience does indicate

-Trigger pull gauge (some of us are sensitive to too light or heavy a pull, though I have not used it much if the triggers felt ok, which they normally do)

-A fulcrum or balance to rough check the CoB (I record CoB in relation to the front trigger not the hinge pin)

-A stiff wood dowel or cut off yard stick (to place on rib to aid in measuring cast, drop, etc)

-A reference card for proof marks or shortcut on your phone

-A cloth and oil bottle to wipe down gun when done handling it (can also be used to pour down the rib if the ringing indicated a fault to see if the loose spot can be easily be shown)

-Though I have never brought one a cradle to hold the gun is useful too.

Everything fits in a gym bag.

Most sellers are decent guys, I do not carry the stuff to avoid being taken, but because many sellers are not as educated or equipped and I want to be sure. I also do not go through the trouble of measuring a gun if I am not really interested in buying it. I am always especially concerned about the barrels. It is not for the purpose of pushing down the price, but does disqualify a gun from consideration that was otherwise of interest. I have the kit in my car, but if I do not see the right gun, I do not bother taking it inside.

Over the internet asking questions of sellers has shown me most sellers are not expert, however well intended. Asking minimum wall thickness is most often stupefying. Looking at a gun in person is always better. On several occasions I have been lucky enough to set an appointment to meet a dealer I initially found on the internet at a nearby gun show. I have ended up buying on two of three occasions, though one was not the gun I went to see, but a different one on the same dealers table.

I have found talking through things positively all but one time I have met agreement in checking a gun out. In fact several times sellers have taken notes so they could remember the data. Some sellers are fascinated as they have never seen some of the things I have or measured some of the things I can.

Yep being an informed consumer takes the fun out of a hukster ripping people off ,selling tarted up turds.if a gun dealer won't let me do my due diligence then he won't get my business ,,no one enjoys finding problems with a gun down the road.and most honest dealers have a good return policy

I haven't been to a gun show in years but my kit is still here and ready to go...

Cotton gloves.

Wipedown cloth

Skeets bore gauge

Bore light

Chamber gauge

Cleaning rod, patches, etc., I filled empty eyedrops bottles with Hoppes, etc.

AA Magnalite w/fiber optic extension

Small tape measure

Pen and pad

Plastic digital calipers, with the bore gauge I could get an in-exact idea of wall thickness, OD minus ID /2

Book of proofmarks

Set of Magna bits

Cash

My contact cards.

Copies of my C&R FFL, if you dabble in old guns, well worth it.

I also carried books about Savage 99's, Winchester Handbook, etc.

Gun sock

These days I also would carry the $30 borescope I got on Amazon that displays on phone or pad.

I also carried a copy of British Proof Laws.

Everything fit in a shoulder laptop case.

OK- "Show me a man who 8s sloppy and careless in his speech, manners, etc. and I'll show you a man who pays scant attention to the finer details that comprise an educated, honest gentleman." author unknown, but those attributes also pertain, as to honesty and fair minded dealing, to gun dealers, used car dealers, etc. I have a brother-in-law who is a used car dealer in MD- specializing in Mercedes and Volvo's-- he stays in business even in tough market times, because his customer base knows he is reputable and stands behind his autos. RWTF

wow foxie, your b in law souns like one hellava uv ah salesman...

wonder if he could sell ice boxes to eskeemoes...

which reminds me uv one hellava story...

wanna hear hit?

Recoil Rob, I like the addition of cotton gloves and borescope.

Is there a map of the vendors available at the Tulsa show?

I've been to Tulsa many times. I don't ever remember seeing one 2" double. But it's a large show I'm sure i missed them.

Brent you're better off buying the Midland for $2200 and having it redone how you want. The barrels and wood is good, all you need to do is whatever cosmetic finishing you want. JMHO

You are almost certainly right on both counts, but it is the hunt that counts. Stalking a 2" in the wild has already been a lot of fun, and I've never been to Tulsa, so that's an added benefit.

Rebuilding the Midland would work, but it would take a long, long time and I'm not that young anymore.

The show will be fun, and maybe I can sell my Smith 629 Mt. to increase the funding for the next gun, even if I don't find it in Tulsa. Just an adventure here in the late doldrums of winter while waiting on turkey season to commence.

Brent,
Very true ! That perfect gun in your search could very well be right around the corner. After years of searching, it happened for me.
Press on and good luck and happy hunting!
Karl

I can understand that. Good luck Brent. If I make it out maybe we can connect.

I like that!

Regardless of what it's chambered in, that is a Sweetie!

On of my "big fears" is that I should happen upon something else like a bargain price H &H or Dickson that is not the 2" gun I want and then I'd have to choose.

Karl don't hesitate to show off that gun some more. I can't quite read the label with the specs on it.

Brent,
I had been looking for a light weight / open choked British gun for Woodcock and Grouse hunting for some time. Light weight meant 2 1/2" chambering as well. After nearly giving up I stumbled on it! It's a 1910 Churchill box lock with 26" barrels choked .003 & .011 weighing 5 lbs. 12 oz. AND it fit me! It had been shot very little and was in great condition. At the time it was Churchill's best and only box lock and I had to have it. With the shortage of RST's and other 2 1/2" ammo, I've simply fed it 2 3/4" light 7/8 oz. loads that replicate or less the recoil of the RST's and it has worked out well. I save my remaining RST 1 oz. loads for hunting.
The gun you seek is out there, don't give up!
Karl

That is gorgeous, Karl.

I just realized that f I can find a 5.5# 12x2", I I will have a 12 gauge double in every half pound increment from 5.5 to 8 lbs. I don't know if this really has any useful significance, but I definitely want that light 12.

Brent
The thing that I realized was that once you develop the necessary muscle memory for the weight of the gun, the magic happens. It will take practice and time, but it will happen. The lighter SxS's have spoiled me now, and has become a preference. Make sure the gun fits and that the balance suits you, I think you'll find it. I'm looking forward to your post of that prize. I think your incremental weight range of guns can be very useful.
Karl

Brent: There are the 2-inch 12-gauge guns and there are the "lightweights" built by various English makers. Both should fit the bill for what you're trying to do, and you're right, the chase is a big part of the fun. Lincoln Jeffries and another maker (can't recall the name, they had the scalloped-out stocks and the short forends) built them specifically, and in 2 1/2-inch 12. Both were well under 6lbs.

Lloyd3,
I've seen one scallop-stocked gun. I have to say, it did not trip my trigger. Effective though it may be, it's not my cuppa tea. The Skimin and Wood's actioned guns are all pretty nice, regardless of who finished them. I think I'm leaning that way strongly.

This is a fun hunt already. It includes looking at my midden of firearms and deciding what can go in the interest of repurposing some dollars. At the top of that heap is a SW 629 mountain pistol has to go and this is time to do it. Looking down a bit further, I'm not sure what else needs rehoming, but I may find some others.

Yes, things were going well until a couple unruly guys decided it was their civic duty to personally attack Ed again. This crap wouldn't fly on the great Upland Journal forum. What this place really needs is more Moderation!

But I seriously wish I had the money I spent on gun show admissions and travel costs over the years. And you know what? After attending literally hundreds of gun shows, large and small, I have yet to see anyone actually using barrel wall thickness tools, or ringing barrels, or pouring oil on the ribs of a fine gun to check the integrity of the solder joints. I did see some pics here of some self-styled expert in a funny hat measuring barrels, but what good is it to preach about the deadly importance of measuring barrels, and then knowingly continuing to shoot a gun with thin pitted tubes? That's about as crazy as the Biden administration giving the 2023 Woman of Courage Award to a biological male. But it's true.

And for many years, I concentrated mainly upon side by side doubles, and all but ignored other stuff. Maybe I need to get out more, but I think Ed's comments about the reality of gun shows and gun show vendors is closer to truth and reality than some of the funny stuff I read here. The vast majority of sellers would not consent to me or any tire kicker with little white cotton gloves removing the barrels from an expensive double, and hanging them from a piece of cord, to rap on them with the scales of a Barlow knife or some other blunt instruments, just to hear them ring like expensive wind chimes. They sure as hell wouldn't let me pour oil or some other unknown fluid into the ribs. I could imagine their mocking laughter as they told me to take a hike.

Never once have I witnessed any vendor permitting anyone to rub the transducer of a several thousand dollar portable ultrasonic wall thickness gauge all over their barrels either. By the way, most Ultrasonic testers are not suitable for small radius tubes such as 12 gauge and smaller, and the transducer is rubbed over the surface with a contact fluid to get accurate readings. They aren't going to give accurate readings at all with Damascus either. All those welds and inconsistent layers of iron and steel will just raise havoc with the reflectIon of the sound waves. I believe that a skilled and reputable gunsmith like Dewey Vicknair owns and has the knowledge to properly use such a tool. But I'm quite dubious that even our more anal gun buyers here are likely to commit to that sort of investment, unless they have an insatiable need to appear impressive.

I certainly remember the rolled--up index card method of measuring chamber length. I myself like our late friend Miller's method of using a simple 6" machinists scale, so won't be wasting time on my lathe to turn brass or wooden gauges that may not give near as accurate a reading, since chamber reamers are not identical. But all that info has been repeated here as often as Mobil 1 for hinge pin lube.

Lloyd:

Thomas Turner was known for building the lightweight guns with the scalloped butt and very short forend.

Turner built nice guns. I owned one, a box lock but not the lightweight version for a number of years.

Rem

Rem: Thomas Turner is the one I couldn't pull up, thank you. Always wanted to try one of those out on grouse. Charles Daily also made some very nice lightweights guns.

Brent: I'm in the same boat, just can't let go ( yet!) of the guns I won't likely need going forward. Those Turners do look a little odd but I'd sure like to try one out. They even made lightweight hammer guns. A Skimmin & Woods gun is almost always very nice, no matter who's name is on them.

My Turner Lightweight appears to have a Westley Richards action and was made between 1875 and 1887 if memory serves on the proof marks. 6 lbs. 1 oz. Damascus 28" barrels, jug choked.

I believe that is the shortest forearm I've seen on a English double. I to dislike the scalloped stocks.

Just about all English makers did or would make any gun how the customer wanted it. But rarely have I seen a Westley Richards under 6-6oz.

The late Alfred Gallifent told me one time that Turner made parts for Westley Richards and took actions in trade, which he then finished.