I went skeet shooting yesterday using a circa 1953 M12 in 20. Great fun if not exactly great results. We then shot some trap and for this I broke out my 10 lb SKB lefty target gun. Still fun but...very different, including results. Comparatively easy after the skeet session and for several reasons. The later M12 actually fits me fairly well, but even with a 28-inch tube, it was hard to swing through and steady for me at times. Now...I was having way-too much fun shucking it (it's been too-long!) which is a distraction, and the winds were fierce which made the high-tower birds really dance. Even my shooting partner was grumbling about it (& he's a past State Champion). But the abjectly striking difference for me was how well/over under target guns work on clay targets....they simply work better in that set of circumstances. A game gun, which in my estimation the sun rises and sets upon, seems so out- of-place on a clays course. It's too-light, it's too-short, it obscures the targets, it isn't choked right....it's simply not at home there. This is a huge reversal for me in so-many ways and one I would have never seen coming if I hadn't started shooting more clay targets and then with the appropriate type of gun. Am I alone here or am I the only thick-headed, slow-learner on this forum?

If you shoot skeet like you would for game, ie low gun, etc., a game gun is where it’s at, in my opinion. After all, it’s a game designed to imitate various types of flushes. I don’t shoot for scores when it comes to skeet or sporting clays, I shoot exclusively to keep my reflexes sharp for the bird season. I can consistently shoot in the 20’s, and I rarely run a straight. I could care less about running straights. When it happens, that’s great, when it doesn’t (which is a lot), oh well, life goes on.
When I shoot my weekly 2 rounds I usually bring 2 guns, usually different gauges, maybe even entirely different action (ou’s, sxs, pumps, autos), it doesn’t matter what I shoot, I’m pretty consistent when it comes to breaking clays, some days are better than others. I don’t think about it too much.
I’ve shot in the 90’s a couple of times on sporting clays courses using a 6.5 pound English game gun. It felt right at home, even if it’s never, ever shot a “springing teal” in the field.


Trap….well, I don’t even bother. I’d rather put tabasco in my eyes than shoot that boring ass game.

The opposite may be just as true. An appropriately game configured over/under will hold advantages in all areas except if use of a third shell is offered?

I like shooting all clay disciplines, but, if I want to be humbled, shooting the duck tower at Metro will do it. I’m just trying to find my groove, and I try to shoot a round of skeet and a round of trap on the same trip, just to mix it up a bit. I change choke tubes, but use the same 20 gauge gas gun for both. It is a process, at this point, trying to get comfortable with my hands doing different things.

I seemed to notice I always shot way better on real birds than I ever did on clay birds, no matter what gun I was using, before the eye injury. I don’t have an explanation, it just was the case.

Best,
Ted

Just like you are unlikely to be successful, bringing just a knife to a gunfire, I learned that taking a hunting rifle to a rifle match is not a recipe for success in serious matches. I suspect the same is true of shotgunning, but I've never shot a target shotgun. The again, I'm not very serious about shooting clay pigeons, as much as I like to do it on a weekly basis.

AND there are morning guns and afternoon guns !!
After a long morning hunt, heavy lunch and brief nap,
I gravitate to a very light gun for the afternoon

My wife claims that I have Sunday guns, and Tuesday guns, and guns for the third Saturday of the month, and well, a gun for every type of bird and every type of occasion.

I would like to think so, but not yet. I'm still just one short

Game guns are much different that modern clay guns. One weighs seven pounds and the latter near ten pounds. IF you are looking for a double gun more suited for clay targets wild fowl guns which come in near eight pounds are more the ticket. Slightly barrel heavy and tightly choked they have a more modern feel to them. If your pocket book is deeper you can find the same gun which much better fit, finish and wood which we call pigeon guns. Same function but finished nicer and the market for them was well off shooters looking for a gun to kill live birds with and do so while wagering sums which would massive today. Nothing like a 250,000 pounds bet on a live bird shot.

Do you shoot Handicap competition with options? Have you ever plunked down $75 on 100 targets with 300 other shooters...and WON?
Handicap trap is far more demanding for gun control and mind focus.
Trapshooting is way more involved than old men on Wednesday afternoons making empty hulls at 16 yard targets!

I found out the same thing you did, about 15 years ago. I have always loved S X Ss, having learned to wingshoot with one as a kid. But, I was given a 1100 on my 16th birthday, and literally shot it to pieces, twice. I began gravitating back to S X Ss in a more serious way, and eventually bought a AH Fox A grade with 32" barrels. The barrels had been opened to .020" and .020". Restocked with a straight grip and long LOP (to suit me), and a BT forend ........ I reasoned I could be competitive on the NSCA tournament circuit, in my class, being the only one shooting a S X S. I shot the GA State Championship that year, in A Class I believe, with it. That was my one and only attempt at competing against the O/Us and the SAs with a S X S. One hundred targets with it convinced me it was not competitive, and that I wouldn't live long enough to make it so, regardless how badly I wanted to. Oh, I still enjoy shooting the S X S events at big shoots, and often do well. But, out of dozens of long barreled S X S guns I own and hunt with I shoot none of them anywhere near as well as my Perazzi MX 8, or even my Super X2, at sporting clays.

On a side note, I disagree with any notion that serious clay target shooters can't be ahead of the curve in the wing shooting field. Show me a man who is successful in FITASC and I'll wager my hard earned $$$$ on him on the dove field or in the duck swamp as well. Not having shot enough skeet or trap in my life to get serious about either, I can't say that about it. Low gun skeet ......... maybe. But remember, the max distance a skeet target is broken is 21 yards. That doesn't prepare you for wild birds at 30-45 yards. Sporting and FITASC will. FITASC requires a low gun when the bird is called for, and without a very good, consistent mount one is not going to be successful at it, or in the field on real birds.

Being a good clay target shooter and being a good field wing shot are not mutually exclusive. You just need the right equipment to do either. Earnhardt couldn't have ever been successful driving a showroom stock Buick.

Keep the vintage S X S guns doing what they are best at, killing wild birds and competing against each other.

Up until shortly after the turn-of-the-century Live Bird and Inanimate Target guns were limited to 8#

The Baker Gun Quarterly, Volume 5, No. 3, May 1900 had an article on the weight of Trap/Pigeon guns used by Capt. A.W. Money (8 pounds - Money used a Greener, Smith, and Parker), C.W. Budd (7 pounds 14 ounce Parker), H.D. Bates (Winner of the 1900 GAH at Live Birds; 7 pounds 13 ounce Parker), R.O. Heikes (7 pounds 15 ounce Parker but after the GAH at Live Birds he went back to his Remington hammerless and won the 1st GAH at Targets), J.S. Fanning (7 pounds 15 ounce Smith), W.R. Crosby (7 pounds 12 ounce Baker), and Col. A.G. Courtney (7 pounds 14 ounce Remington CEO).

And most of these fellas were using 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 Dr.Eq. loads

7- 7 3/4 pounds regulated for 1 1/4 oz. 45 ( 3 1/4 Dram) to 48 ( 3 1/2 Dram) grains "Schultze"



With damascus barrels ?!? What were they thinking ?!?

Why would you ask me that knowing I already stated I dislike the game and find it boring AF and I already said I don’t shoot for scores?? Dense much or you just trying to let everyone here know you’re a great trap shooter not to be reckoned with?? I’ll save you the trouble and pat you on the back!😂
You think I’d plunk down money, to shoot with 300 other shooters on a game I dislike? No, I didn’t think so. I’d be more likely to plunk down money on a game of lawn darts before I would for a round of trap.

With all that said, I’m glad you enjoy shooting your preferred discipline and that you’re good at. Super excited that you’re happy. To each their own.

Fifteen years ago, I was probably better at upland shooting than now (better vision, better reflexes, less wear & tear on everything) and likely less-susceptible to accumulated recoil. Now, when I shoot my 557 Arrieta with the Vintagers, that constant 12-bore pounding with a 6 3/4 lb gun is noticeable at the end of the day. For me, the clay games are a pleasant distraction & a good excuse to get out and shoot. I don't keep score either (I'm just not that consistent) and I'd like to think they make me a better shot on game. If I had a decent vintage gun right now that I was using on targets, I'd likely be concerned about the accumulated recoil of the target-specific ammo being used. I don't sweat that with my 10 1/2lb SKB, & I don't seem to notice the recoil as much either. I absolutely love SXS guns and the older the better. On game they are still my go-to option. I also still enjoy using a classic pumper (the guns of my youth!) but I can now see the appeal of the stackbarrels. I just couldn't before, largely because of an eye-dominance issue, but also because of the perceived cost and machine-made nature (& modernity) of them. A pragmatic concession on my part, I suppose.

Since I only own SxS's, that's what I use for target shooting as well as hunting. For the comfort of my old shoulders, I've dropped down from 1 oz. loads to the 7/8 oz. ones in 12 ga. Much more comfortable and they work great. My 12 ga. guns range from 5 lb. 12 oz. to 6 1/2 shooting sporting clays and the occasional SxS meets.
Karl

Enjoyed this thread.

Interesting to see W.C. Scott in 1893 charging £8.5.0d extra for Whitworth fluid steel barrels when in 1895 Edwinson Green charged 3 guineas extra on the £35 price for them on my BLE with chopper lump Whitworth barrels.

Talk of gun weights prompts me ( when she’s not looking) to use my wife’s best scales to compare the weights of my SKB 500 over and under with my more modern B. Rizzini Premier Sporting. Both are 12 bore with 28 inch barrels.

The latter has a much more chunky Sporting Clays stock so I would guess it will be about a pound heavier.

The gun I shot at Mike's is a 1892 Monte Carlo B nice guns really well made

Lloyd
There’s a reason that all Olympic shooters use O/U guns while competing, don’t you think?
It’s kind of like fly fishing with cane vs graphite. If I’m deadly serious about catching a particular trout, I’d choose a graphite rod. If I’m just out to have fun, I’ll fish cane. I too just happen to like the aesthetics of a vintage SxS. If excelling at a particular game, I’d choose an O/U. Thankfully I no longer compete except against myself.

Courtesy of Stephen Helsley

Trying to shoot sporting clays or skeet with a light bird gun can be a challenge, but doable if you start gun off the shoulder, swing through and trust your instinct. This becomes more difficult when the targets are farther out, requiring more lead than a normal swing through provides. Using maintained lead or pull away technique with a 6 1/2 lb bird gun is much different than a longer barreled heavy O/U. Accept the limitations and enjoy the experience.

Nitrah,
I make it work with plenty of practice and a long developed muscle memory. My 76 year old shoulders thank me!
Karl

A couple of observances:
I know of zero competition SC shooters using a gun heavier than 9.5 lbs., with most using a gun weighing 9 lbs. or a hair less, max. I also don't think an SKB o/u can weigh 10 1/2 lbs. unless its crammed with extra weights front and back.

Clayshooting games like Skeet, Trap, and Sporting Clays, and variations on each, require a proper gun IF you are a serious competitive shooter. Casual shooters who say they are just out for fun and don't keep score are free to shoot whatever they want or need to use to remain proficient in the field with a particular gun(s). And that is just fine. But please don't tell me score doesn't matter, because it's way more fun to break the little orange bastards than to miss them. The guy who walks out of an SC station having missed 8 out of 8 targets with his 6 1/4 lb. Churchill and is laughing and yucking it up like "so what, I'm just shooting for fun", ain't havin' fun...
JR

Yes it’s always more fun to break targets than to miss them.

This is why I so much like the superposed. For me, a nice compromise between field and target. I don't feel much handicapped or burdened in skeet, SC, upland, ducks, or whatever. Decent at almost everything. However, when I'm shooting well, any gun will work pretty well, add when I'm not, switching it up does not help.

Mr. Roberts: It sure feels like 10 1/2 pounds at the end of the day. I looked up the specifications for my 90TSS LH gun and it says 9lbs4. Loaded it'd be more like 9lbs6 but you're right, it's unlikely to be 10 lbs plus. I guess I'll need to drag out a digital scale to confirm all of that, but what I've noticed is that with a gun that really fits me (left-hand palm swell, adjustable comb, adjustable for LOP and rotate-able pad) when I mount it...everything is right where it should be. Those long and heavy barrels force me to swing through my shots and the substantial weight of the gun really sops up the recoil.

As much as I love them, my game guns don't always fit me that well and their light weight, which is so-lovely in the field, does not translate well to the clay games I've been attempting. As the old saying goes...different horses for different courses.

I say different chokes for different "fokes".

My 1946 Webley 600 Special A&D boxlock features 30" barrels and a semi-pistol grip. With a weight of 6 lbs 13 oz it is easy to carry in the field all day yet continues to swing beautifully, making up for the deficiencies of its owner.

Here the fashion for new shotguns is for 20 bore o/u with 30" barrels weighing 6 lbs 12 oz or so and firing one ounce of shot. Does that sound familiar?

Swings and roundabouts...

HB

When a gun feels heavier than it is, the gun has poor balance. A friend of mine has a Purdey pigeon gun that is dead nuts at 91/2 lbs. when you pick it up you would swear it was 1.5 lbs lighter. That’s balance. Perazzi have this and that’s why they point so well and move to the target.

I am going to add a little side note. Using the light bird guns is fun but I think a little more dependent on good timing/rhythm. I shot a couple weeks ago with a 6 lb 3 oz 20 ga. and could hardly miss. I shot yesterday with a friend and my wife and their gabbing got me off balance and I missed all the targets I couldn't miss a week ago.

Through the years shooting doves and sporting clays, I have become enamored of little .410 doubles. When I first began trying to use a sub-5 lb. S X S it was humbling, and at times frustrating. I missed birds that I could not understand the reason why I did. Only through trial and error did I find a way to switch from a 9+ lb. Perazzi to a S X S half that weight. I found that my shooting technique had to be drastically different. For the record, I shoot sporting clays pre-mounted.

I found that, for me to shoot what I consider light weight guns well at doves, or clays, I must begin my mount by having the muzzles closely on line with the bird. As the butt nears my shoulder pocket the muzzles stay in line with the moving bird and begin to slightly pull ahead of it. Almost instantaneously, after my mount is completed, the gun is triggered. Shooting these little guns in this way enabled my hit ratio to go way up.

It is my belief that the reason .410s have the poor reputation they do in the field on gamebirds is not because of a lack of killing ability, it's because the little waifs require such a different method of shooting.

I shoot my MX8 just as bad as I shoot my Purdey