I was just involved in a mail order purchase with a dealer that is supposed to be reputable. Before I had him send me the gun I said get it in your hand and I proceeded to ask him numerous questions of which all the answers he gave were good....I then told him..."I don't want to send the gun back...if there is anything wrong with it you better disclose it..because I and others are going over it with a fine tooth comb.

The minute I opened the package there was a very serious defect that stood out like a knot on a log....I called him up within 10 minutes of the UPS delivery.
First he tried to blame UPS...I said no then he claimed "he didn't see it"...then he tried to "accuse someone he had sent it to previously for inspection of doing it" I told him this damage was not caused by your averagejOe it was caused by a gunsmith...

That day I showed it to a gunsmith friend who explained how the damage to the gun had occurred...during the previous restoration. I told him at his price I couldn't live with the defect...he was willing to negotiate but I wasn't. I told him I was returning it for a full refund and that I expected him to cover all shipping costs as he didn't disclose the obvious defect.
He then proceeded to try and accuse me of doing the damage...which I very quickly stopped and he then apologized.

I got my refund check for the gun but he kept shipping charges...

If he had've told me about the defect and I had said "ship it and let me decide"....the shipping should be on me.....but I feel he wasn't honest with me to start with....with very little coaching my wife spotted the defect and I'm sure a young child could have also.
I took pictures of the problem in case he gave me a problem.

I'm sure he will read this and figure out that if I don't receive the money for shipping I'm going to post pictures of the damage along with the link to his website.
L.F.Cox

Same type thing happened to me with SLY on auction arms. Hope it wasnt him again.Most of us are honest, but same ain't.

If he knowly DIDN'T disclose the defect they he should pay for shipping. May we ask the damage and the gun?

Who was it?

He saw the problem before he sent it. He was hoping you would overlook it once you got it. Or if you squawked, he would cut the price.

Gun dealers do that kind of stuff all the time. Why? Because a lot of times it works.

OWD

I hope this isn't the hammer Purdy? Lot of one-eyed dealers about. On the other hand, my fine-toothed comb has come up short on eye teeth a few times when it was in my interest to see it in three. But sears can be rehardened, cracks fixed, pin rust lived with.

jack

No it wasn't the PurdEy cartidge gun.
This problem would be very costly to repair...if it could even be repaired.

HoJO,

Please start throwing in an E in Purdey.

PurdEy....is that better.

It's a start.

Here's picture of the damage...my picture sucks. The rib is mashed on the right side it's over an inch long...said he didn't see it.
This was not caused by a blow.

The only thing I don't understand about dealers is why all they seem to attract a certain following of 'groupies' who love them.

Rest assured as soon as you post the dealer's name there will be a backlash from guys who will tell you they would slice out their own liver for the guy.

I guess it's kinda like how I don't understand how anyone could follow the Rev. Jim Jones, Jimmy Baker, or Madonna.

He runs a big add in Double Gun Journal.

They better get to cutting....he screwed me out of a 100 bucks shipping and wasted about a week or more of my time.

Here's another pic it's kind of hard to see in the picture but I can assure you I could see it without glasses...and I'm blind as a bat up close.

Any gun dealer will tell you he is an expert on guns when he is looking to buy your gun and is in the process of pointing out all the flaws. He will assure you he knows so much about guns that you will need to sell him your gun because he can tell your gun is actually a fake made of cheddar cheese with a clever paint job.

The same dealer will tell the guy he is looking to sell the same gun to that he is not much of an expert on guns and it's entirely possible he could miss something that any other human with eyes would see.

So true.............

I can see it in both photos and I would be extremely upset with a "dealer" who would ship me a gun like that without telling me about it first. If he "didn't see it" then he should definitly pick up the shipping costs......he's a professional and gets paid to see such things. He should pay if he didn't!

I, for one, would like to know another name to avoid. If its one of my guys I'm keeping my liver!

I can see the problem; but what caused it? I'm thinking of events or custodianship from which no gun could return...
How the hell can someone with even a rudimentary knowledge of guns not see it?!
Name and shame!
RG

Attention mall shoppers, or oaken and leather gunroom old h0meless0ne?
The asking price tells many tales!

Anyone else having trouble seeing the pictures? In any case, I hope you get your shipping money and then some for the wasted time.

Lowell the asking price was astrO'nomical...

The part that really ticked me off was that I asked him point blank with the gun in his hand.
I said..."I know the gun has been restored that doesn't bother me if it's a good job..look it over really good. What fault kind you find with this gun ?"
His reply was..."The only thing I can see wrong with it is the color case is too bright"....I replied "thats probaly the least of my worries" at which he replied "that's all I can see wrong with the gun".

The Makers name was polished from the rib not a big deal but the pits up the rib were. I could've lived with that but not the smash...the smash was about 7 or 8 inches up from the breech plugs on the right side of the rib....there is only one way to smash a rib without denting or damaging the barrel.

Cadet it's a muzzleloader with re-case colored breech plugs ?

That's the key to the damage. I'm no gunsmith but I do talk to a really good one all the time. He told me that when you go removing breech plugs he builds wooden blocks to contour to the barrel...my best guess is the guy that removed the breech plugs during restoration crushed or smashed the rib. The rib was only smashed on the right side the breech plugs would screw out counter clockwise.
The barrel tubes on this gun inside and out were pistine. I couldn't spot any damage to the tubes with high magnification....I gave it alot of thought but I wondered if the damascus tubes could be damaged from the stress of mashing the rib on the right side.

Sorry to hear about one in the trade that responded like that. He should of said he was sorry for the error. Naturally you should always take advantage of the 3 day inspection.

JOhn Boyd

HOmeless, Bullseye Sporting Arms is in the liar category. Ivory Beads sold me a shotgun as, "Brand New, Never Fired". It was fired. I don't name names to get even, but people should know who is honest and who isn't. I wished someone had tipped me off to Bullseye, they told me the gun was in good working order, and I asked every question in the book. it came with the top lever left of center, off face and paper-thin barrels. The Ivory Beads gun was nothing that I couldn't live with, but they were not forthright either. I currently have a situation with another dealer, I will let the board know if he does the right thing and refunds my shipping and FFL charges. After this I think I am done with used guns. It's too bad that people have to resort to deception to sell something. They get no further ahead and just buy themselves bad publicity. The actions of greedy and desperate men.

I have bought a couple guns on-line and a couple on this BB. The two from dealers (everyone here would recognize the names) were NOT as described. One which was said to be "unfired" was filthy inside with powder scum and plastic but otherwise OK. The other was said to be choked mod/full and the first thing I looked at when I opened it was Imp/Mod stamped on the barrel flats. When I called the guy he went into a full-scale BS spin about constriction, his work with a bore mic., patterning, etc (beware of dealers in Rhode Island). The guns I have purchased from guys here were exactly as described.

Do not be so quick to say that a gun is not new when it could be. I have several new Berettas that came direct from Beretta that have quite a bit of residue inside the bbls. Also Arrieta and AYA guns, same. If I was an uninformed comsumer, I would think these we used too. But they are not. So might be ok.


PS. I have puchased several new cars that had from 30-75 miles on them, should I have called them used?


John Boyd

If I can't make the round trip - I won't commit - no matter what.
It'd take a very special gun to get me into the van again.
In my early days I bought a English name sounding gun, sold to me as an English gun....it was Belgian!
The gun went back!

The dirty gun referenced above was a Beretta. The crap I swabbed out of the barrels was identical the the crap I swab out of my guns when I get home from shooting. So maybe I'm an "uninformed consumer" or maybe I'm a guy who's cleaned a lot of gun barrels that have been fired. If I were a dealer I might think about cleaning up my unfired Berettas before sending them to customers... just to avoid confusion.

75 miles I can live with, a butt in the ash tray rubs me the wrong way.

I had a guy I work with try to buy a Hyundai for his daughter. They selected the car from the database, 'prepped' it and pulled it around and it had 5,000 miles on it. He said, "Is this a new car?" and they told him "Yes sir! It's a 2007!"

The dealers are in business to make a profit and some dealers akin to make more than they should and those will also turn their back on their moral values.
As for Joe’s encounter with this dealer, I feel the item was misrepresented from the start and I believe the dealer intentionally took advantage of the circumstances, while he (the dealer) exposed to no risk and at the expanse of his customer, he press on the merchandise as in good condition hoping to get away with his calculated oversight. That said, I believe this dealer is dishonest businessman and should be avoid by the shoppers.
I’ve purchased many guns online, both new and used, form private and dealers. Fortunately, I only had one bad experience, in my case the stock dimension was misrepresented and was put right by replacing the recoil pad. I also purchased a gun from Ivory Beads not too long ago that did not work out and they did refund it in whole including the shipping one way. I did lose out on the return freight charge but that is acceptable in my book. Just as I don’t expect a local retailer should reimburse my gas or the wear and tear on my truck if involved returning to the store for refund or exchange of merchandise.

I have about weened myself from buying on line as well. Fortunately I shoot with a group that includes three or four dealers who specialize in quality SXS's and rifles. There is nothing quite like picking up and taking down a gun for oneself.

A recent bad experience was a Lindner in "outstanding" condition with "absolutely nothing wrong with this gun." Upon receipt it had a badly rebuilt head and had been converted from pistol grip, probably during reconstruction, to English configuration. Was able to get my money back, but not the shipping.

There are some good guys out there. I will give an endorsement for Thad Scott to anyone. He has always taken the time to walk me through any gun thoroughly over the phone, and the one I did have to return to him didn't take place until three months after purchase. It was a 7x57r drilling, that looked fabulous, but upon finally getting to the range, I discovered it had been drilled out to 7mm Von Hoff by some idiot (chamber walls were paper thin). Thad took it back immediately with sincere appologies for not catching the conversion. I highly recommend his operation.

HjO, you weren't kidding about the rib. It is obvious this damage was down before the refinish on the barrels. I would have sent it back too.
I frequent his website often, but not anymore...

Talk to you soon,
CFWs

Ps. I still think the barrels were shortened...

It must have been the bi-polar Thad Scott that I spoke with at the Tulsa show several years ago.....I'd be hard pressed to buy a pop gun from him.

I agree with the senitments of others that you should post the name of the dealer in situations like this (and also when you get very good service). Obviously some here already know from whom you bought this gun but most of us are kept in the dark, which only serves to perpetuate improper tactics such as those you describe. T

he internet has allowed commerce to range far and wide, but without corresponding far and wide dissemination of important information about sellers the market cannot work. Think pre-1933 securities markets.

I guess I should...

it seems his friend (a member on here) has figured out who I'm talking about....and the dealer has sent me an email.

Said "I left out alot and also added"....I guess I left out the part about him "needing glasses"....and that "he had never had a negative comment in all his years in business".

Oh well....$99 bucks is $99 bucks.

After having a bad experience with Bulleye Guns in CA., I could never recommend them for anything to anyone. Shitty service from shitty business people.

Would love to get an email again from them. Feel free to contact me.

Cory

Gee HjOe, you think he can get glasses at 4-Eyes for that $99 he took from you?
He can afford to place an add in DGJ, but does not have glasses he needs, what?
Sorry to hear you got screwed.

I don't see why people shouldn't post good and bad expeirences with dealers here, by name. Everyone learns from it... including dealers who look at this site.

Which page in the summer DGJ? Thanks.

Come now, let JoE work it out at his leisure.

One of the reasons ebay is so popular is the "feedback' section. A seller's(or buyer's) past performance is available for all to see. Wouldn't it be great to have those data available on the front door of any store you walk into? Think how it might change the performance of car dealers!

I feel a whOle lot better now I recieved another email from him....he's keeping my $99 bucks but has offered me free shipping inspection on future purchases...lol

"I do not like anyone unhappy. If in the future if you would like to examine one of our guns I would be glad to provide free shipping both ways. This way if you see something I missed it will cost you nothing."

I feel honored...but I'm still out $99 bucks.

I never read the adds...

I love it...."If you're unhappy with how I screwed you, give me another to chance to screw you in the future."

This website is underestimated by some dealers. A lot of serious buyers here who have good memories.

I am done business with Bob at Bullseye and have always been pleased.

John Boyd

I'm in the middle of a deal with Bob at Bullseye and he was very nice on the phone and I have high hopes of a successful transaction. They get alot of interesting guns and if my deal id satisfactory, I'd consider buying again.

John, with all respect, he knows that you are also a dealer. That puts you in a different category from the typical "bozo" (at least in his eyes) that he believes he can scam.

And the dealer being discussed is......

The trouble is he did this to a pristine muzzleloader with perfect barrels!! If it was a breechloader who cares but to screw up a muzzleloader that's unacceptable!!!
All the best

John,
do you not think sending that gun without disclosing that very evident defect would merit returning all of the buyers funds including shipping,whoever the seller is?This "if the buyer does not ask don't tell thing" is becomming more and more common.I personally feel better buying from another collector or an auction house (where I can attend)then playing that game.Its not good for the hobby and certainly not good for dealers in the business both good and bad when collectors get screwed.
Dave K

For the record..My post has nothing to do with Bob at BullseYe...never heard of him.

HomelessjOe,
why not name who it is??Your not going to buy anything more from him and that C note's history.

You might as well post the dealer name, right now, you are giving every dealer a blackeye

[/quote]
You might as well post the dealer name, right now, you are giving every dealer a blackeye[/quote]
As much as I detest discord, I have to agree. Either that or let the thread die a natural death.
We are all grown and mostly mature men. Ladies and young'uns excepted. It does not reflect well on us to be name calling and pointing fingers toward the vast crowd. Seems to me that when all attempts to bring a deal to a happy conclusion have failed, and one needs to "warn" an unsuspecting public of a dealer or buyer, it is the mature thing to state the facts and name the name.
Just my thinking.
Best,
John

Regarding the dealer's "Don't tell if they don't ask" policy: If you're like me and have ever tried to buy a gun sight unseen from a dealer, you'll find that most dealers, since they are so busy and all, will quickly run out of patience if you start asking more than a handful of questions.

They combine that approach with the '.....for its age' disclaimer and you might as well just call and say 'send me the gun' without asking any questions.

That leads to TURNBULL.

I would gladly walk away from anyone who is not willing to take my questions seriously and answer them honestly. Business is more than an exchange of money and products. If they do not have the patience and time to answer my questions, then they have nothing I want.

I've had excellent experiences buying several second hand guns from Steve Barnett, Cabela's, British Sporting Arms, and Westely Richards Agency. In two situations things were not exactly right, and the dealers gave me all the possible options to correct the situation.

Sorry about the situation Hjoe...

Joe,
A dealer that does not return shipping fees when he is clearly at fault in his description, is basically having you pay for his attempt at deception. This game repeats itself until the seller eventually finds another buyer who does NOT catch the inconsistencies of his less than honest description. The last unfortunate buyer learns too little too late the cost of an
oversight.

O-D

Agreed...

I had a similar experience with Woodcock Hill a year or so back....he turned from Mr.Nice guy to a smart aZz but...when caught he "returned all the shipping"...still babbling how "it was a good gun for the money"....

I don't know about you guys but I don't have three grand to throw away on clunkers.

I don't look in the direction of his website anymore. I bet the gun is still on his site with no mention of the breech face being coroded to hell and back....you could almost add an extra firing pin.

My only good mail order/internet experiemce has been with Montey Whitley....(I don't blame him on it at all)....he returned shipping no questions asked...never once tried to tell me I was wrong....after he got the gun back he called me...said "you know I believe you are right that the forearm wood was replaced at some point".
It didn't jump out at you like the mashed rib or the coroded breechs....It was a very old job on a 125 year old gun it wasn't that bad of job but didn't suit me.

I've purchased another gun from him since....I guess 'one out of three ain't bad' when it comes to internet gun dealers.

If he was being a smart aZZ about how it was a good gun for the money, you should have told him to make sure it stays in his personal collection and that you hope he did not pay too much for it.

It's not like this sport has a hundred million people buying these types of guns everyday. It's a niche sport and one would think dealers would be aware how quickly word spreads if they try to take advantage of someone. If this guy had returned your money on the spot, everyone would be saying what a good guy to deal with.

When things go right for both parties in any exchange, almost anyone is a good person to do business with. It's when things go wrong that you find out who is a good person to do business with and who is not.

Would it be a good idea for this board to have a "Sticky", where a Dealer List might reflct both good and bad experiences. A little like the eBay feedback, but with a more specificity in the commentary. That way, a single bad experience might be offset by many good experiences (or vice-versa).
It would be a help to everyone in this community and probably get the dealers' attention.

Well, I guess he's not going to tell us who he had trouble with. Now, every person who places ads in DGJ is suspect. Oh well.

If there is something that I did not see, I return the shipping.

You guys gave me great ideas, since you expect the dealer to return postage for misrepresentation (which I agree) I am now going to expect people who send me guns to buy to pay return postage for misrepresentation. I guess you will agree with me and have not problem with this issue. I have not done it in the past but sound like you would approve.

Thanks,

John

Sound good.

Absolutely, it has to be a 2 way street.

Been reading this thread w/interest. I read often but seldon post but this one got my jucies flowing. I was discussing a gun recently with a dealer from the Guns American located in Conn.I required 3 day inspection period and we exchaged email concerning this as well as phone calls. See his reply when i told him to keep the gun if not a 3 day period" and i must say it has never taken me more that 2mins. to decide if i liked a gun or not i can build a motorcycle in three days i does not take that long to look over a gun open it close it look down the brls check the wood and look at the brls test the triggers done 2 mins" This was an LC Smith specility grade with the #7 serial number made in 1946. May still be advertised. Has a VH for 1295 now- does not states steel or wooden barrels

One more who advertises this great well know gunsmith that does his work in Guns American should be avoided. I will not be biten twice.

But Safari, Cabelas, Dawson and others has delivered as advertised, no issues.

I told the board in an earlier post on this topic that I would keep you guys posted as per my latest transaction that had gone wrong, here is the scoop: I ordered a Gulla Mod. 216 from Harry Marx, Hi Grade Imports. Ginger, the person who helped me was very intelligent and knew all of the gun lingo such as, Purdey, Boss and Holland and Holland engraving. She also described the checkering using tech lingo such as "crossover", Etc. I asked her in an e-mail how the bores were, she replied, "The Bores are Clean". I bought the gun and as soon as I checked the barrels I saw a large black spot, half-way up on the bottom of the #1 (right) barrel. I felt like I had been kicked in the gut. I hoped that it was just fouling and took an oversized brush and several patched to it. After 10 milutes of scrubbing the blemish still remained. I looks like a crater, How it got there, I don't know. The only thing I can figure out is that the barrel was defective to begin with. I phoned Ginger and she admitted that she never really checked the bore! I asked for a full refund, including return freight and my FFl Transfer expense, which I promptly received yesterday. I must say I wasa pleased about getting my money back with no hassle, but not pleased with the inaccurate description. Thank you for the prompt and Courteous refund Harry Marx! I hope that other dealers will follow suit and please make sure the info is accurate, it saves everyone a lot of money!