I have been doing some experimenting lately with relaying ribs and would welcome some input. I always use four clamps (1/4" aluminum frames with brass screws) for most of the work and add nails with round heads if needed. I have tried (in various combinations) solder no doubt designed for plumbing, lead-free solder, low-temp solder from Brownells (my favorite), and probably some others. Several different fluxes as well but consistency of results is paramount and I have done my best work with a water-based paste flux for plumbing. I had some major frustrations in my latest attempt (an English side by side HG--nothing special) but finally got it right. I would reallylike to hear suggestions. Thanks! Gil
gil russel, I don't do that work, but here is some poorly informed advice anyway. If you can "jury rig" some type of oven you will likely have more harmonious results. Soft iron tie wire is your friend. When cleaning the solder residue, be very careful to avoid making the barrel too thin next to the ribs. Mike
Gil, search back through old posts by Chuck Heald (Chuck H). He once posted a thread on how he did it, with photos. Maybe he will see this and join the discussion. Chuck's a sharp guy.
I tin everthing with a very large soldering iron and acid flux and a natural fiber brush, then clean with dish washing liquid mixed with water tie barrels and ribs together with wire and flooring nails every two or three inches add rosin flux keep heat source moving add solder as necessary.pure tin is more trouble then 50/50 solder
Assuming there is no collector value to the gun, going the ribless road, as in the Alex Martin SXS, is a possibiity. And if the ribless gap bothers a carbon fiber snap in top rib can be contrived.
As stated by Mark above complete tinning of the barrels and the top/bottom rib is of utmost importance. I am going to share with you one of the "secrets" of the gun trade in how to make sure that the tinning is absolutely complete prior to the soldering of the ribs to the barrels. The use of a product commonly called "tinning butter" used by the old masters of the auto body repair prior using lead (prior to plastic body filler) is the secret. Tinning butter is available in different combination of lead and acid and even 100% tin and acid. Using it on barrels and ribs THE ACID RESIDUE MUST BE WASHED 100% AWAY AND NEUTRALIZED WITH BAKING SODA AND WATER and you need to do this several times prior to relaying the ribs to the barrels using lead/tin solder and pine rosin flux. I purchase pine rosin from Diamond Forest Products in Georgia http://www.diamondgforestproducts.com/~shop/rosin/1-lb-powdered-pine-gum-rosin/186879/
Do not use acid tinning butter for spot the repair of ribs. The ribs must be completely removed in using tinning butter as all acid MUST BE REMOVED before using traditional solder and pine rosin flux.
Here is a video of a master auto body craftsman using tinning butter so that you can see how it is applied
I use 50-50 solder and rosin flux to both tin and join the ribs. The key is not getting it too hot, once you burn rosin flux you have to polish back to brite steel. I use a medium sized iron combined with an acetylene(not oxy acet) plumbers torch. The torch heats the base metal just enough that the iron will keep things wet on the base metal. It takes some practice to get it down but it is not hard. On the ribs themselves I use just the iron, no torch.
I never use acid flux, It does work great but I've too often seen the result of it not being completely removed from the surfaces. It's not needed IMO as long as you clean everything before you start soldering and don't burn the regular flux.
I use 50/50 or 60/40 ,what ever I seem to have at hand. I've used the Tin/Silver 95/5 stuff and it works OK. But I don't see any real advantage to it plus I don't care for the solder line always remaining a brite white color. At least the lead/tin stuff does oxidize and turn dark grey after a time.
Flux is the paste in a plastic jar from Home Depot sold for plumbing work. No-Corode was the older catch all name for the stuff.
I use a 200w hand held soldering 'gun' to tin the ribs and then also tin the bbls as well. The 'gun' has enough heat to easily tin the bbls all the way untill you get just past the forend hook. Then the wall thickness starts to work against you. A smaller watt unit won't have the power to tin the bbls but will work on the ribs OK.
From there I use a propane torch with a 'pencil flame' to heat the surfaces and tin that last little way. After tinning I go back over the surfaces of both the bbls and the ribs and smooth them to remove any lumps or bumps of solder. A coarse file run over the tinned surfaces takes care of that quickly. This so the ribs lay down nice and flat when first clamped up for sweat soldering.
I recoat the tinned surfaces on both the ribs and the bbls with flux once again. I lay the tinned ribs in place. I use a length of 1/8" square steel 'rod' on top of both the upper and lower ribs. Then a bunch of small C=clamps placed every 3 to 4 inches or so gently tightened down pull the ribs down onto the bbl surfaces.
All clamped up, check the rib for straightness and no canting at the muzzle end. Then begin sweat solding it down into position. I use the propane torch for the soldering. Begin at the breech end,,always.. The rib will 'grow' due to being heated. If you start at the muzzle, the rib can expand in length just enough to be too long to match up with the solid portion of the top rib at the breech. If during the process you need an extra clamp when you are soldering,,take one from the opposite end of the assembly where you already soldered things up. . That'll be set already,,Still Hot!,,but solidified.
I use scrapers instead of files to remove excess solder from the surfaces. Much like wood inletting scrapers/tools, they can be used in a pull fashion and remove the soft solder efficiently and smoothly. You get a feel for how much pressure to apply and at what angle to hold the edge so that when you get to the surface of the bbl steel, it will scrape very smoothly and not leave chatter or gouge marks. Saves a lot of clean up time.,,and no clogged up files with solder. A 'V' pointed tool gets right down into the rib joint and cleans out the solder and can also scrape the steel clean at the same time.
CONTAINS: Zinc Chloride and Ammonium Chloride. PRECAUTIONS: May cause irritation to eyes, skin, digestive or respiratory system. Avoid direct contact, breathing of fumes, and ingestion. Wear adequate protective clothing and equipment. Use only with good ventilation. Wash thoroughly after use. FIRST AID: For any overexposure, get immediate medical attention after first aid is given. Eyes - Flush with clean water for 15 minutes. Skin - Wash with soap and water. Inhalation - Remove to fresh air. Ingestion - DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. Only if conscious, give large amounts of water. FIRE AND SPILLS: For fire, use water fog, CO2, foam, or dry chemicals. Wipe up spills to prevent footing hazard. STORAGE AND HANDLING: Store in cool area. Keep container tightly closed. Do not reuse empty container. KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDRE
Years ago I solder up some stuff with it and left it in the corner of the shop. It got pretty rusty.
Acid flux I really easy to kill ,tin was the prefered methed of putting ribs to barrels tin has a similar contraction expansion rate as mild steel ,I know people who use a clamp system but you can push the rib down between the barrels if you are not careful. my electric iron is 350,400 watts I use it to tin everthing before wireing up ,like I was told there is more then one way to skin this cat
Great to know,,,but I don't use (Trade Name) No-Corrode Flux,,I use a Paste Flux stuff in a plastic jar from Home Depot. It doesn't corrode anything. Oakley or Oatley is the name on it. Works on copper plumbing, wiring as well as Purdey, Parker, Fox, etc SxS ribs. ....But (older) people commonly call any paste flux stuff No-Corrode Flux.
I failed to mention in using c-clamps that positioning a couple to hold the bbls side to side from separating can be done as well. It's not really needed if you are careful, but I usually do use one at the muzzle.
Actually if you are using clamps and you are able to compress the ribs enough to push the bbls apart while sweat soldering the ribs into position, then you are using way too much clamp pressure and allowing too much of the rib & bbl to get to soldering temp at one time. No need for either.
Yes you have to be careful with what you use and how you use it.. and what works for one person may be a complete bust for another. Results are what count.
Kutter, there are three that I find at HD made by Oatey, each a little different. This one is described as tinning flux. Is this the one you use? There are two others in Red and white plastic jars, one called No. 5, and the other H20 5.
Not trying to start a Peeing contest but Oatey contains the same salts as Nocorode .
this from their website:
FAQ
Are fluxes corrosive? Yes. Flux is designed as an oxidation remover and actually etches the pipe in preparation for the soldering process to be successful. This is why it is important to flush the lines when not using water soluble fluxes. Wipe excess flux off the exterior of the pipe after solder joint has been completed, and never wait more than four hours to solder a joint after applying any flux to the joint.
Watching this brought back memories. When I was 17 I purchased an old beater ‘29 Model A coupe whose doors were rusted. I brought them in to my metal shop course in High-School along with some plastic fillet as a class project and proceeded to use the plastic. The teacher said no, you need to do it the correct way: tin the metal then fill in with lead. Went to the local auto parts store and after several trial and error learned the old time way. Still have some thick lead bars somewhere in the garage.
Just plain Oatey #5. Never the after rust issues that 'acid flux' (labled as such) has shown me. I rinse the assembly off lightly when cooled down to rid it of the sticky excess flux left behind. Nothing extensive. Warm water. Maybe there's less of the so called acid flux in it?. I don't know, I'm not a chemist and don't pretend to be one.
Ammonimum chloride is Salamoniac,,a common at one time soft solder flux itself. But hardly anyone still uses it. Sold in a bar form like a bar of soap. Works good as a slow rust blue rusting agent as well..that's where I've used most it in the past.
So yes they are rusting agents. Metalic salts are. Potassium chloride (corrosive primers) Sodium Chloride (common salt), Ammonium chloride (salamoniac). Some more so than others I suspect, some rinse away easier than others maybe too.
The heat used in the soldering process may invite more agressive action of the compounds(s),,another guess on my part. I do know that once you button up that cavity betw the ribs and the bbl's, it's free to do what it wants to and many I've taken apart because of tell tale lines of live rust at the rib/bbl solder joints showed crusty rusting and deep pitting on the inside from the use of acid flux in soldering that was not completely removed. That inspite of the 'smiths insistance that they in fact did a complete job of removal before sweat soldering. I just don't trust using the stuff. If you get fine results then it's great and chaulk it up to the ' Everyone does things a bit differently and results are what matter'.
I've never had one returned to me for a problem that I've solder/relayed.
do any of you guys regulate the barrels to a specific point of aim or do you just solder them full length to the ribs and just hope for the best?
We're discussing RE-laying ribs here, ed, not building barrel assemblies from scratch. There are little spacers soldered between the barrels, between the top and bottom ribs. If they aren't messed with the regulation should not change. It has already been noted that one cannot clamp the top and bottom ribs too tightly during the process.
my understanding is that the top rib joining of the last four inches or so to the barrels is what determines where the gun will shoot each barrel...
was curious to learn from those who have actually done rib relaying work, if they include re regulation of the gun as a necessary step in their process...
and what about the bottom filler rib? is that re attached before or after the top rib?
The barrels are jigged so a line tangent to the tops and bottoms of the barrels are parallel. As long as the barrels haven't been cut the muzzles are clamped and any spacers between the barrels are replaced where they were originally. The tinned top rib is placed onto the barrels as they were originally and wired with wedges to hold it in place. then the barrels are flipped over and the bottom rib is put in place. If the fore end hanger was removed it is important for the keel rib between the breech end and the fore end hanger is critical so the hanger is in the right place to get the correct bearing tension between the fore end and the action. Then the rest of the bottom rib is slid under the wires and wedged. The wedges on the top and bottom go the opposite direction to help maintain even pressure on the top and bottom. Some people put rosin un before and some after but the rosin will act as flux between the tinned barrel and ribs. With everything tight heat is applied. If using a torch, propane is hot enough. Start at the breech end, evenly hating both barrels. Wire solder is pounded flat to easily fit in the joint between the rib and barrels. It is important to apply the heat mainly to the barrels so the heat moves to the rib and not the other way. Add solder to any gaps you may see. As the solder starts to flow move toward the muzzle. It will go faster as the mettal is thinner so you have to be careful not to overheat. Gravity will flow the solder down to the bottom ribs and hanger. When everything is cool double check you don't see any pinholes Then cut all your wires and clean off any solder that is outside the joint. If you didn't have the triangle shape wedges hat filled the gaps at the muzzle put a ball of steel wool in the holes and use a solder iron to fill the void with solder. I've probably forgot something, but this is, to the best of my memory, how Mr. Dennis Potter taught me to do this. Now refinish the barrels and you are good to go.
I point the narrow end of the flooring nails to the breach and so if you tap them to tighten the wire it will keep the rib tight to the short breech rib,,,unless this is a chopper lump or others that have a rib from breech to muzzle you can clamp at breech end
Why look for problems that don't exist? If there was no issue with regulation before a rib relay why screw something up. If there was a problem before that's another deal altogether. ( follow Mark's advice, follow Mark's advice, follow Mark's advice)
well, perhaps part of performing professional work is to anticapate potential problems that may surface later on...
better to check for and fix regulation problems if necessary, while the barrels are being rejoined, rather than running the risk of having to deal with an unhappy customer later on...
and if the cost of re regulation is factored in as part of the re laying job, then getting paid should be no issue...however, if the work has to be done after the fact, one may encounter difficulty in getting paid...
why not do the extra work now, impress the customer with your knowledge and professionalism, get paid for your time and expertise and create a happy cutomer, who is then likely to refer you for similar work...
i have a nice old english hammer gun that needs the ribs relayed...when choosing a smith to do the work, i would hope barrel re regulation would be offered as part of the overall project...
“ i have a nice old english hammer gun that needs the ribs relayed...when choosing a smith to do the work, i would hope barrel re regulation would be offered as part of the overall project...”
Well you dunce, it’s not. It’s two separate jobs. If you want to pay that gunsmith to re-regulate your barrels or to check the regulation of the barrels…and if he wants to take on that job (many will not), then do so, but you will pay dearly. It’s hard enough to find a competent gunsmith to just re-lay ribs let alone one that’s willing to take on the job and expend the time and energy to re-regulate the barrels.
You like to recommend Gunter Pfrommer anytime someone ask for a recommendation, call him and ask him if regulation is part of the rib relaying process. I can guarantee you it’s not. That’s what jigs & taking measurements are for, to keep everything lined up correctly so you don’t have to worry about moving something accidentally and changing poi.
The entire process has been laid out for you in basically coloring book style by some extremely knowledgeable and competent individuals here and yet you still want to flap your gums and either ask dumb questions, make stupid comments or suggestions, etc. It’s so tiresome.
People are tired of your stupid antics here, Ed. You have got to be the one of the most ignorant, annoying, and completely obtuse people this board has ever had.
People are tired of your stupid antics here, Ed. You have got to be the one of the most ignorant, annoying, and completely obtuse people this board has ever had.
I don't know, Frank (jOe) gives him a run for his money.
well, maybe i have had too much exposure to professional gunsmiths who see beyond the immediate task at hand...they try to minimize the risks of being found liable for problems that may or may not have existed before their involvement...
for example, they know that one unhappy customer with a big mouth and lots of contacts can cause far more loss of revenue by not bothering to at least offer re regulation as an option...and of course, if one is not set up for or experienced in barrel re regulation, then the rib relaying customer should be made aware of this skill deficientcy, so that, if the gun is found not to shoot to point of aim as desired, after the rib relaying job, that they then have to go elsewhere for problem resolution...and at their expense, of course...
sort of like when barrels are machined for after market choke tubes, the customer should be advised that the barrels may or may not require re regulation...
in my conversations with professional gunsmiths over the years, they have related that much of their gun repair work involves fixing problems caused by untrained, inexperienced and incompetent gun hacks...who may or may not call themselves gunsmiths...
I have fixed many guns sold to unsuspecting buyers by so called gun experts who hawk tarted up crap and then don't stand by there crap products ,and there first demand to a gunsmith is do the cheapest repair they can so they can flog the turd Onto there next rube. Most guys who who hawk tated up crap have no interest in anything but the sale.if a gun is brought in for relaying the ribs all bets are off on poi because a gunsmith has no idea where it shot before the gun fell apart
sort of like when barrels are machined for after market choke tubes, the customer should be advised that the barrels may or may not require re regulation...
When done properly, the threading a barrel for choke tubes never causes POI to shift. But, I'm not going to waste my time explaining to you why. Look it up for yourself.
Another swing and a miss. Wish we had an umpire, 'cause you're way past three strikes.
Del relaid ribs on a set of barrels for me about 15 years ago. He re-browned them too. The rib relay is top notch….the browning was so-so. Anyway, all I sent him were the barrels. How’d Del check the regulation of the barrels I sent him, Ed? He didn’t. Like his article says….he took meticulous measurements and he also has a really neat, self designed jig set up that keeps everything where it should be. He put the barrels back together the way they were sent to him. Guess what? The poi is exactly where it was when I sent him the barrels.
If you want Del to do your barrels, get in line. He’s probably a year or two out these days.
.....The entire process has been laid out for you in basically coloring book style by some extremely knowledgeable and competent individuals here and yet you still want to flap your gums and either ask dumb questions, make stupid comments or suggestions, etc. It’s so tiresome.
People are tired of your stupid antics here, Ed. You have got to be the one of the most ignorant, annoying, and completely obtuse people this board has ever had.
Sorry Dustin, but I didn't find Ed's misconceptions about rib relaying vs. reregulation even one percent as offensive as the recent off-topic Thread where rocky mtn bill eulogized the Donald Trump hater David Gerson. Not even close! There are things far worse here than Ed's thoughts on regulation.
Really, it just isn't possible to do an actual reregulation job without unsoldering the ribs. So the two processes are closely related. However, I'd agree that the vast majority of gunsmiths who relay ribs are only going to rely upon their jigs and clamping to maintain the original points of impact.... which they could not know for certain without test firing at a pattern board with the desired load. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, most barrel assemblers working for the manufacturers of mostly machine made guns probably didn't do any tedious jig-and-shoot regulation of shotgun barrels either. They likely did little more than check probable point of impact by sighting through the bores before joining. Old hang tags with test firing results seemed primarily concerned with pattern density and choke boring. Regulating double rifles is another story entirely, and the extra work involved helps to explain their higher prices.
So I just don't understand why you were so upset with Ed's comments. They weren't nearly as wrong as when the Preacher argued for several days that lengthening the chambers of vintage doubles will actually increase the wall thickness at the end of the recut chambers. That was just about as crazy as it gets... other than actually paying Briley's to recut a chamber to try proving that was true. I don't think Ed would ever do something like that, so who is more obtuse? Maybe disgusting is simply in the eye of the beholder, and bears little relation to fact???
The more I read about relaying ribs the more I admire ribless guns, from the first Alex Martins to current work like the totally ribless Chapuis OU.Even the ugly duckling Baby Bretton has managed to solve the regulation problem with its plastic muzzle yoke (hand detachable too!).
Makers who tout their million dollar/pound investment in high precision CNC, EDM, CAD still employ 14th century tin smithing techniques to fix ribs that have no functional role in the final product.