A really interesting discussion between TGS Outdoors and Holts Auctioneers on British Boxlocks,the workhorse of the side by side world, pre the Spanish import period.

Boxlocks Explained

Great video and well worth the time.

Simon sounds so confident about what he says and admittedly this sort of clip is for the casual observer. However, as usual there are unfortunately historical errors in what he says. The most egregious of these occurred early on when he conflates WW Greener the father, who hated center-break guns, with his son. The two broke over the issue and did not speak for 10 years. This sort of thing unfortunately leads one to sort of want to move on to something more intellectual and accurate.

I watched it a few days ago. As usual with Simon and Jonny it’s pretty British-centric but I’m used to that from them. I think the key thing to remember is people like us aren’t the target customer. We know too much. I learned nothing of note in that 50 min video although it was somewhat entertaining. Now, the first 10 guys that come to mind that I shoot and hunt with, other than CJO, would likely learn a fair bit.

I was shooting at a private hunting club a couple weeks ago and the guides are all English and trained games keepers. Graduates of a two year course somewhere in the English north. And every time one of them handled one of my SxS, they would make some laudatory comment about the gun and by extension, often humorously, about the gun’s owner. They made no such comments about any one else’s guns…..invariably some O/U. My host, who happens to have been a very close friend of mine for the last 50 years, suggested we walk back to the clubhouse after the last shoot. He wanted to talk guns. Started by asking me why the guides always commented on my guns. That wasn’t the first time it’s happened. What my friend really wanted to know was WHY do they view my guns differently than most others.

My point being that there are a ton of guys who have hunted or shot lots, who have the cash to spend if they wanted to, but they didn’t get bitten by the bug we did. To our way of thinking, they know remarkably little on the subject of what guns they shoot. That’s who Jonny’s videos are made for. And Simon joins him to hype the next Holt’s auction. Lol

I totally understand that. It's a simple entertaining video with lots of accent and properness. It's just that the falsity of some these declarations get to you. It's ok, I guess, since it's pretend, it's advertising and it's show biz along the lines of selling a car (with a dual quad, double supercharged compressor, spark induced advanced combustion air intake) but wrapped up in that sort of quaint ta ta old chap bonhomie. But it doesn't have to be like that and it does make you wonder if Simon really knows what he's talking about.

Simon is in sales. Not research. Lol.

Now, I was in sales and marketing most of my career so I don’t denigrate it. But I don’t imagine the practitioners as necessarily or even needing to be experts. What they need to be is confident and, as you noted in the earlier post, Simon's nothing if not confident.

Annoying to see them hold a Greener next to an Anson barrel set, get told of the details and never get a close up of the things. Seems that the video was got up in a hurry and camera work and editing were rushed.

Seeing that there are some hundreds of boxlocks in the auction catalog I get the need to drum up interest in the type.

Particularly as the Facile Princeps was the relatively uncommon first model with the swinging cocking hook attached to the front lump.

A very interesting and entertaining video.
Here in the UK with the current dire British economy and £ versus $ it is a fine time to consider a purchase.
Many , many SxS are simply not wanted here by the younger shooting enthusiast , gunshops will give you very little money for a SxS either as a sale or a part exchange for a new or used O/U.
For the novice you would be well advised to purchase Diggory Hadoke's book Vintage Guns for the Modern Shot ( a super Christmas present????).
Experts amongst you will realise that birds or targets can be shot equally as well with a SxS as with an O/U but at a fraction of the cost of an O/U but with far greater joy and excitement.
Enjoy the video , have more enjoyment reading Diggory's book , but have exceptional joy and entertainment shooting a wonderful British made SxS.

Great video, but I sure wish all the true experts here would show what they can do with a better one. The bar has been set and it seems many think they can do much better. I'd love to see it done.

Well,,,.i don't think the westly richards was a Anson and deeley unless the 1884 pat.is a A&D

I don’t think anyone here has suggested they could do a “better” video Brent. For what it is, most would acknowledge it’s very well done by two professionals. But Gene’s point about being factual and my point about us not being the target audience are both reasonable comments.

Brent, I could not make a better video. These two really do give a good show and it is fun and is meant to be introductory. And I still have to pick at annoyances and think that with just a little more effort, it could have shed some light on some interesting topics.

For instance claiming that Greener the father and Greener the son were the same person,(beside making the narrator look like an idiot - can you imagine someone combing George Bush 41 and 43?) misses a really neat fable about family conflict, company regeneration and gun history which could have been put into one sentence. Both Greeners were experts and both wrote very important books in their time.

There are numerous examples of these types of errors in their videos. And it would have been nice to have more close up pictures and a more detailed explanation of the difference between the A&D Box Lock and Facile Princeps..something more than "it was hard to work on and had too many small parts." This could have been done in two sentences.

Of course, there is a danger in a pod-cast like this of trying to make too many points at once, at which time it loses its sales value and becomes pedantic. That's perfectly understandable. No matter really since the video probably will sell some guns for Holt's. But, we do know better and for the record it is bad history.

The test of all gun designs is which one got made after the patents expired. The best ones did not always win, but no great designs were ignored and those which were solid and reasonable to make, at a profit, became the bulk of the market. Hence A&D box locks dominate doubles. They, like everything could be made to a price point, and came in all different levels of fit, finish and qualities of materials. Some of the lower grades are not too different from our Stevens or Fox B's and some were so nice that they were just a desirable and finished to a high standard as any Side plate ever made.

I like the mid grade guns which have almost no market at auction right now or some of the hammer guns which have recovered a bit in interest but still can be a value find. My 20 bore Pape hammer gun is a favorite Clays gun right now or my 12 bore Westly Richards, crab joint hammer gun seems to get a lot of action at the trap and skeet fields. A recent purchased Lang swept central fire, shot a decent score at Sporting Clays last month. Swept Central fire shooting is a bit different, but once you shoot a few stations you just forget about it and see the bird and shoot the bird. This Winter I am going to shot a few rounds with a left and right handed crossover double. You never know when you might lose an eye if WWI comes back, so those crossover guns might come back into fashion.

Even thinking about having a club shoot with a different gun to be shot by everybody on every station. Each station would have a gun and shells provided, so station one might be a Hammer gun, station two could be a 32" waterfowler, station 3 has a right shoulder, left eye, cross over double gun, station 4 is a swept central vision gun, Station five will be a left shoulder, right eye crossover gun, station six another hammer gun and station seven another long barreled gun. Skeet shot under old rules, low gun and option of delayed call/release. I did this a few years ago with a combination of pump and doubles which amused and confused most shooters.

That’s who Jonny’s videos are made for. And Simon joins him to hype the next Holt’s auction. Lol[/quote]


Yup....Johnny Come Lately and Simple Simon???

BrentD, maybe not in video, but in print some have put together fairly accurate work on the boxlock.

To be fair, the two presenters clearly state they are presenting the British boxlock. However they do offer it as an attractive buy opportunity and on that score it is prudent to widen the scope and compare with non British products.

Well, there is one boxlock out there which engineering wise runs circles around the Anson-Deeley design. It is the Beretta 626. It is owner serviceable, parts drop ion without hand fitting and are available, at a reasonable price. To give an example, the articulated front trigger of the 626 can be bought for about 50 Euro, and when it arrives it can be fitted with no smoking in etc in a few minutes. The 626 is the most "LUX" alternative, there are othes like the French Robust, whhich are equally serviceable and have affordable spares.

Such comparisons are useful for younger people considering a SXS. It is useful for them to know that there are SXSs that are as serviceable as any modern OU and can be found at similar or lower prices.

cept new gons made after ww2 have no soul...

Soul.... well you tell a 25 year old shooter that he has to pay 3000 dollars for a new V spring on his soulful English boxlock, plus wait for a year for the work to be done and see how far you get in popularising SXS shotguns. pre or post war.

That is about ten fold the going rate. The idea that a well kept old gun is costly to maintain is simply nonsense. Find a sound example, feed it proper ammunition and enjoy.

Yup....Johnny Come Lately and Simple Simon???[/quote]

This is doublegun.com where bragging how much better one is than everyone else is important and insults are stock in trade.

I don't see this as a sale promotion. It will exist well after the auction is gone. It doesn't particularly promote any one gun, or is it clear that any, much less all of them are for sale next week. Overall, it's a nice production that is about 1000 times better than I've seen by others on guns of any type on Youtube. I even learned something. And how many other places will one get to see the drop locks on a Wesley. And how many times is too many to view a Dickson? I can live with the inaccuracies for just those things alone. I can only hope they will make another soon.

But go ahead and pick it apart. That's what you guys do.

Hey Brent...... chill out man. Have you watched many of Jonny's video's? He has done a ton of them. He started as an employee in a gunshop and began the videos as a way of promoting the shop and it's wares. His videos have been so successful that he moved to doing them full time. Simon joins him, typically shortly before a Holt's auction and the topic is usually germane to Holt's ambitions for the auction. A sales promotion. THAT'S WHAT IT IS!

That doesn't mean it's bad, evil, useless or a waste of time. One poster here, who hasn't often contributed to the conversation, called a spade a spade in a humorous way. Big deal. One of the reason's Jonny's videos are so successful is because he imparts a lot of good information, targeting those who don't know very much about classic SxS, in a very accessible and entertaining way. But that doesn't mean they aren't, at their core, promotional vehicles.

Of course it doesn't promote any one gun. Holt's auction isn't selling just any one gun. But you don't need to be a university professor to figure out that low and mid range boxlock prices in the UK are tanking. That happens when there are lots of sellers and not enough buyers. So doing a video focusing on the qualities inherent on British boxlocks makes perfect sense. It's promoting a product range or class, not an individual item. Companies do that all the time.

I can find a lot of examples of Simon and John's entertaining videos containing false information. This video was brought to my attention on the Reilly line 9 months ago:
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436564&page=84

In it Simon and Johnny discuss the difference between a Stephen Grant and an "E.M. Reilly." The only problem as detailed in my response is that that gun is not an E.M Reilly. So did they just pick up a gun and and add a name to make a point? Was it a gun Reilly sold but did not claim to build? It's an entertaining video illustrating that you can get quality in lower priced guns but what about truth? I sent Simon and John a request for more information on that "Reilly" for my database. Crickets.

It is useful to know that some things might be easy to acquire but can be very expensive to keep. Anyone who lived in England and bought a used Jaguar knows that.

Ed: I think new guns that are still handcrafted have soul. I admire both the Spanish and British shotguns for that reason.

I don't know about Holts personally as a business, but my British boxlock came through them and I’m very happy with it. They do sell a lot of very nice unique guns.

One of my favorite TGS episodes with Jonny was his in depth discussion of the Beretta 680 and progeny series. With a Leatherman tool, he stripped it down completely with commentary that parts availability is readily accessible, inexpensive, with no fitting required. The genius of the replaceable trunnions, ejector assembly, etc. was demonstrated. Well worth watching for those considering the series or owners who seek affirmation of their choice. Gil

Hahahaha, this is rich!

When I first came to this forum back around 2007, one of the first things I noticed was this bird, and his frequent personal attacks and insults directed toward poor old Lowell Glenthorne and others he didn't like. Those personal attacks are still there for anyone who cares to check... just to see how disingenuous and hypocritical the statement above really is.

And when this crybaby didn't get his way after personal attacks came back at him, he not only cried, but also attacked the site administrator Dave Weber, and launched a personal campaign to encourage others to support his boycott of donations to the forum. He often has had problems posting photos here, and blames Dave for not having free photo hosting, instead of blaming his own ineptitude.

He hates it here... but can't stay away. Petulant and immature doesn't begin to describe this behavior, which seems quite common among Liberal Left Democrats, for some reason.

My son will be learning that lesson shortly with his new to him TR6.

I learned it well with larger sailing vessels. I’ve just struck a deal to look after and maintain a 30’ sloop (Alberg 30 for those who care) with someone else paying all the bills. Oh, and they don’t know how to sail the boat. Lol. So basically I have a boat to sail literally whenever I want and someone else is paying for it. Dumb luck. Should be good for a 5 year plus kick at it.

My father used to joke that sailing was standing in a cold shower tearing up 20’s and 50’s all the while claiming you have a good time. We sailed the Chesapeake and off the coast of Virginia. Dropping sail to take advantage of blue fish boiling after bait fish spin casting into them is something I will always remember with a smile.

Sometimes I think it it true for vintage guns and long range hunting trips that yield few birds for hundred of miles and some great walking and sights.

I recommend the Apostle Islands, James. I spent a pleasant decade crewing on a similar sized craft, usually 38-42’ boats when a few friends had charter captains licenses. Ours were rented in Bayfield, all had small motors on board, highly recommended on Lake Superior.

Had a lot of fun camping on those islands. It got even better when we started dragging my 20’ runabout to use as a cab, or a barge to move crews from one boat or island to another. If you have the means to run 60mph back to Bayfield from one of the islands, you are truly never out of beer. Pretty strict equipment requirements on the big lake, but, those were good times.

Have fun.

Best,
Ted

Ted I spent 10 years sailing my own 30’ boat on Georgian Bay and the North Channel of Lake Huron. Fantastic sailing in those areas. I’ve wanted to sail the Apostles but just too far away. I’ve also bareboat chartered and sailed 45’ to 50’ boats throughout the Caribbean and the Adriatic coast of Croatia.

But I’ve spent 15 years ashore so this will be a good way to dip my toe back into that sport.

One thing about sailing pretty much anywhere on the Great Lakes. If you can handle that, you can handle anything. The most difficult winds and Georgian Bay is a freaking mine field of reefs. You better know how to navigate. I did most of my sailing in the pre GPS days.

A very good book on the A&D is John Campbell's The Birth of the Boxlock which utilises a hell of a lot of research done by myself about William Anson