I am a doublegun.com outsider who is currently assisting my brother-in-law in researching the history, value and provenance of an heirloom Fred Adolph, Genoa, NY 20 gauge, side by side shotgun in its original wood case that has been quietly handed down through several generations of our family.

I'm here because in my research I came across an extensive 2007 thread on doublegunshop.com forum with information about Fred Adolph guns. One of the post’s contributors, Michael Petrov, who it sadly appears passed away in 2014, expounded on the history of Fred Adolph’s work. The extensive dialogue around Fred Adolph’s guns and history suggested there may be more enthusiasts with knowledge of this gun’s maker who might be able to assist our quest to establish its history and value. We’re hoping that with your collective and extensive experience with collectible firearms some of you might be able to shed some light on the importance and collectability of this particular gun.

We can trace ownership back to a great grandfather who lived his whole life in Auburn NY (1869-1937) quite near Genoa, NY but we have no paperwork related to original purchase. One intriguing clue regards the trigger guard which is monogramed in gold with the initials WBS.

While we have some experience with shotguns we are neither gun enthusiasts or collectors ourselves. This being the case, the family may consider putting this shotgun on the market, so we’re also researching what might be the best way to offer it for sale. We’re reaching out to a number of experts for appraisals, advice and suggestions if and when we do chose to sell it. But at this point we are primarily interested in educating ourselves before determining the next step.

Thanks for any help you can offer. We appreciate any knowledge or referrals you might be able to offer that could help us learn more about the importance and value of this particular gun. Thanks, Tim H and Tim F

[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/xshWijash5TqtSBw5[/img]


There are guys who know a lot about German guns .its to bad you don't want to keep a great family gun like this, it is artwork on a gun

Hey 2 Tims -

Nice looking gun. Thanks for sharing. Does it have a retractable sling in the butt?

Do you have any pics of the markings on the underside of the barrels? How long are the bbls? Any pitting or marks inside the bbls?

What does it say on the rib/top of the bbls?

OWD

John Allen in Franklin Tennessee is a good appraiser. I would guess it would bring 6k on GB. Just an educated guess. After an appraisal you can decide to list with big auction house or sell directly to someone like Lock Stock and Barrel or GH. BEAUTIFUL gun though!

obsessed w dbls - yes, it does have a retractable sling. i pulled it out about ten inches with no trouble but didn't go any further, not knowing what it was all about. Top side of both barrels are marked KRUPP STAHL in a circle and GERMANY across middle of circle. Underside each barrel stamped KRUPP. Each barrel also stamped with two hexagonal impressions with a raised "S" inside and a smaller stamp that i can't read. I did not inspect inner barrels and don't have the gun here to do so. I can say there was no evidence of rust or pitting anywhere else on the gun. I'll ask my bro-in-law to inspect. Also I'll try to add photos of details described above asap. thanks.

Thanks!

TDH,
There are a couple sources of information for Fred Adolph and his guns. The German Gun Collectors Assn. Published a special edition of the Assn's. publication DER WAFFENSCHMEID relating to Adoloph. If there are any left (likely), you can buy one for a reasonable price. Also, the website German Hunting Guns has a good bit of information concerning him. This site was recently hacked and was infected by a virus. It is currently being redone with a different server and I have been informed it will be completed within the next few days. I hope this helps you.
Mike

I have added a few more photos in the original link. here it is again. (Hope i am doing this correctly. i'm unfamiliar with the functions on posting)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xshWijash5TqtSBw5

Could you pleasure us with an image of the other flat of the ejector gun and also the water-table? Is the word >>Safe<< on the top tang?


The stamps of the S in a Chevron note the Krupp tubes were sourced from the Schilling forge and more than likely performed a couple tasks on the tubes.

AW are the initials of the tubeset knitter and I will search for matches.


I would 1st guess the longarm originated in Zella-Mehlis and the adornment was either by Gustav Ernst or a student of Ernst. I do not think at all that Austrian Rudolph Kornbrath contributed any effort. An American engraver would not have put an Auerhahn/Capercaillie on the floorplate. The Anson & Deeley Body Action longarm looks to be for export and was totally made in Zella - Mehlis. The word >>Stahl<< on the tubes were read instead Steel if the tubes were sourced in the rough bore state from Germany. Too, with the steel terms Krupp & Germany coupled, that would note export as every German well knew Krupp. The tubes wear the preliminary shot test but I am curious where the full regiment of German proofmarks might be? One might say that Fred Adolph worked them off in making the longarm. But I state that is a very low probability and Fred Adolph had connections, didn't want to pay for the proof fee and since the longarm was destined to a country that did not have proof laws, then managed to circumvent the German proof effort. Fred Adolph made few guns, maybe finished a few stocks? But the sourced his wares from the talented mechanics from Suhl & Zella-Mehlis. Look at his business modell & why he went broke. He wasn't sourcing components and finishing weapons, he was purchasing them completed in the final state. That's what broke him when clients didn't pay.

Also, with the tubeset knitter being a German mechanic, the longarm was brought to a final state in Germany and shipped to the U.S. of A. Fred Adolph was a Firearms merchant @ Best and had bolts of Wool.

More images of the marks will substantiate the above hypothesis, actually reality.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Alfred Wilhelm of Zella-Mehlis comes to mind as the tubeset knitter and he is appropriate for the time period.

Emil Wilhelm could be the Schäfter or stocker as they may have wanted to keep the work in the family???

Otto Weiss might have been the Schäfter too??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Oh yeah, Adalbert Wolf of Zella - Mehlis easily could have performed the tube work as he, or his family, had been stroking tubes since 1879.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Fred Adolph began his business of importing nice German guns and marketing them under his own name before WW1. He depended, in large part, on the endorsement of well-known and even famous customers. This was an often-used method of advertisement going back to before the Civil War, and Colt. These practices may be frowned upon now but were common and accepted then. The quality of the work was never in question because of them. When WW1 began, and especially after we became involved in it, there was a lot of anti-German feeling and rejection of many things-German, even changing German spelling of family names to the English version, such as Mueller to Miller or Battenberg to Mountbatten. In this environment, it is understandable that Adolph may have encountered some customer's reluctance to pay. Also, the war naturally affected his ability to deliver prior orders or make new ones. It seems that he tried with some success to reestablish his former business after the war but didn't do as well as before. With regard to the lack of proof marks on the gun in question, German law required guns sold in Germany (and German possessions) be properly proofed under the German proof provisions. Guns exported to other countries were subject to the proof laws of the country into which they were (and are) imported. The US did not (and does not) have a mandatory proof law, depending instead upon civil liability laws to ensure safety. Since they were not required, had to be paid for, and considered ugly by some; it is more likely that proof marks were not applied, than they were removed. Richard Hummel, former editor of the German Gun collectors Association's publications wrote an article about another Fred Adloph gun in one of the issues of Double Gun Journal, which includer a goodly amount of information about Adolph himself. If I can, I will try to find out which issue it is in.
Mike
.

Raimey;

I am sending you a PM.

Stephen Howell

THANKS Raimey. I added my one other photo of the top of the barrels. I regret to say that I didn't get shots of the ejector gun and other internal details while I was there with the gun. Thanks for all your knowledge. Ultimately we're trying to find the gun a new owner and need to figure out the best way to do that.

Ford:

I concur with Adolph's modell but I just have low regards for him as I think the was purely deceitful, and stretched the Truth till it broke. He was just dishonest & and I do not think he to have been that good of a mechanic. His upper rung wares were from the hands & backs of the most talented mechanics in Suhl & Zella-Mehlis. Those are the bona fide craftsmen. And another punch: Adolph sourced the Zella - Mehlis mechanics because they were cheaper and he could pad his pocket.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
He is not my favorite either, read between the lines regarding the endorsements. Charles Daley's wares were from the hands and backs of the talented craftsmen in Suhl also. I think, from Dick's article that he was mostly a stockmaker. Still, his business model was common then and now.
Mike

Ir is a bit hard to say that Adolph depended on oversea work like Daly. Kornbrath engraved Adolph guns on this side of the world and apparently Adolph was quite a stocker at one point. Adolph. Used Springfields for some of his custom rifles. Is there evidence that he sent those overseas for completion ?

No, I don't think he sent them across the Pond but Springfields along with Mausers are quite modular and since the platform already exists, add a barrel along with adornment. Adolph may have been a mechanic of merit @ one point but I would hasten to wager the chicken scratching on the forend is of his hand? Yes, He may have added some Wood but I think that was to the extent of his abilities. Adolph's whole life is a sordid tale and I for one think he was something of a con-man??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

His whole life was sordid and you figure him a conman, Care to elaborate on either of those points? I have read something similar but it hardly seemed credible.

Bottom line....what is the gun worth ?

Being German made is not a plus in price.

Even though Petrov told me & strongly informed me to never post on his threads in order to prevent our >>research<< from being mixed:

>>Fred Adolph
Published September 2002

I have resisted writing about Fred Adolph. It’s not that I don’t have enough information. In fact, that’s just the problem. I have too much information. My Adolph file is the thickest of any research file I have, plus I have copies of several of his catalogs. The problem is that there is so much conflicting information on Fred Adolph. After many years I am just now getting a picture of the man and his work. There has never, to my knowledge, been a custom gunmaker in America who was as self-promoting as Adolph. His catalogs are works of art, one numbering sixty-seven pages in length. It’s apparent as soon as you start reading an Adolph catalog and looking at the pictures that every gun in the catalog was for the most part made in Germany for Adolph. The exceptions are the restocking of sporting rifles such as the Krag, 1903 Springfields and Mauser rifles. He sold drillings, double rifles, shotguns, both side by side and over/unders, single barreled trap. Also single-shot pistols made by Webber of Switzerland. How much work was done on these guns in Germany and how much did Adolph do? This has always been the big question. I have seen Adolph guns that were made in Germany with engraving done by R.J. Kornbrath in the United States, and a 1903 Springfield with engraving done in German. I have found no evidence that Fred Adolph did any engraving. Most Adolph guns have a lot of carving in the wood and the workmanship is uniform and appears to have been done by the same hand whether on a 1903 Springfield or a shotgun. I am not sure if any totally completed guns came from Germany. Many would have been imported in the white with possibly an inletted stock blank for him to finish, have engraved, hardened and blued. I do believe if you ordered a custom sporting rifle on your action the work would have been done by Adolph.

Both Whelen and Crossman, writing about Adolph in the sporting press in the early years, attributed all the work to Adolph. This is a mystery to me because they knew better, the proof marks on both action and barrels tell the story. For the purpose of this article I will stay with the sporting rifles and leave the shotguns, drillings, pistols and others for someone else to sort out.

Fred Adolph was born in Glantz, Germany one January 29, 1875. After a basic education he apprenticed to a gunsmith in Silesia, a historic region that is now in southwestern Poland. After his apprenticeship he worked in several European gunmaker firms such as Webber in Zurich, Switzerland, Steyr in Austria and Haenel, Sauer and Schilling, all of Suhl, Prussia (Germany).

Adolph arrived in the US in 1908 with his English-speaking wife Minnie and became a naturalized citizen in 1919. It has been reported that Adolph worked for several different gunmakers in New York State. The only employment I was able to confirm was that he worked for a short time circa 1909-10 at Baker Gun & Forging Company Batavia, NY, makers of the “Baker & Batavia Guns”. He did work during 1910 when living in Rochester for Bausch & Lomb, the optical firm.

About the same time that Ludwig Wundhammer made the first 1903 Springfield Sporter for Stewart Edward White out in Los Angles, California, Adolph made one for Townsend Whelen. (This sporter is a part of the NRA museum collection.) Earlier he had made a Krag sporter for Whelen. With Whelen writing about the fine work of Adolph there was no shortage of customers in these early years. Looking over Adolph’s catalogs and advertising it’s clear that many well known sportsmen of the day bought his guns. Some of his customers were Teddy Roosevelt, Townsend Whelen, E. C. Crossman, Charles Askins Sr., Charles Newton, Henry Ford, George Eastman, and Roy Chapman Andrews (the real Indiana Jones). Adolph’s guns were expensive; a plain 1903 Springfield conversion could cost around thirty-five dollars without stock carving or engraving. Some of his doubles sold for over a thousand dollars which would be several years’ wages for a working man. From a used gun ad in Arms and The Man May, 1919 “$175 Adolph rifle, 30 U.S. 24-ribbed bbl. Krupp, very accurate, handsomely checkered, absolutely perfect inside and out, $95.”

Fred Adolph was one of the first in the US to advocate mounting a short telescopic sight with a large field of view on sporting rifles. He designed high velocity cartridges and collaborated with Charles Newton on cartridge development. He also introduced rustless steel barrels and was the sole representative in the United States for the Poldi Steel Works of Vienna, Austria selling Poldi “Anticorro” Steel. Griffin & Howe offered Poldi Anticorro barrels as an option and most will be found on the higher grade and engraved G&H’s.

In these early years Fred Adolph was in a position to become one of the leading custom gunmakers in America. He went so far as to have an architect design the “Fred Adolph Factory”. His talent in advertising was every bit equal to his gunmaking. There was not a sportsman in America who did not know of Adolph. He also wrote articles in The Sporting Goods Dealer, Arms & The Man, The Outers Book, Outdoor Life and Rod & Gun in Canada.

In 1914 with the outbreak of hostilities in Europe the British, who had a strong navy, clamped a naval blockade on Germany and effectively cut Fred Adolph’s supply line from Germany. I believe that he must have had a lot of money tied up in orders that would never be delivered. He tried to carry on but as the war progressed his money problems only got worse. Stockmaking alone was not enough to keep him financially solvent. It was not long before magazines like Outdoor Life wrote warnings about sending Adolph money. Ads in the classified sections showed up with people trying to locate Adolph or other people who had problems with him. When the war was over there was little improvement in his financial position and it’s possible that none of the magazines would run his advertisements. The Genoa, New York, Tribune where this was published reported on July 8, 1921 that Adolph had returned on the liner “Manchuria” from Hamburg, Germany. I suspect that he was in Germany trying to recover his war losses and establish new business connections. By 1926 the bank had repossessed his house and for all practical purposes he had disappeared. In 1935 Adolph is in Brooklyn, NY and writes a letter to Sedgley trying to sell him on the idea of an over/under rifle-shotgun. He says that he had been out of the gun business for some time. On April 1, 1936 he goes to work for Ford Motor Company in Dearborn, Michigan as a tool maker and retires from that job on June 30, 1952. I find him again living at the Hotel La Brea, Inglewood, California in 1957 at age eighty-two. He died in Los Angles, California August 15, 1957.
From his problems before WWI until he went to work for Ford in 1936 there are a lot of missing years. Trying to find a man who many considered to be one the best gunmakers in America during those years has been very frustrating. Keep in mind that I am still researching his past and more information may surface. I would like to tell you where I think he was for several of those years. I believe that he lived in the greater New York City area, got up every morning and took the subway to 234 East 39 Street, sat at his workbench and stocked rifles for Griffin & Howe. Please compare the pictured “Griffin & Howe” rifle to the Adolph Kurz-Mauser or Adolph-Springfield ad. I have seen several early G&H’s before they standardized their style and discontinued the stock carving that looked like the work of Fred Adolph. At first I just thought that they where copying his style, now I’m not sure. One rifle G&H No. 139 is marked with both G&H and Adolph’s name. It’s quite possible that this one was sent to him for stocking because it was an early 1923 gun. The others just have the G&H name, so the possibilities are intriguing.

Identifying an Adolph:
His first business address was at 10 Ariel Park in Rochester, New York. There are at least two known guns marked “Fred Adolph Rochester, New York”. Sometime between February 1911 and June 1911 he moved to Genoa, New York.

Once you have examined a few of the carved Adolph rifles they are not hard to identify. However the plain ones without stock carving and without provenance can be very difficult to attribute to Adolph. Notice how Adolph used his coat-of-arms as the initial shield on the Cook rifle. I wish he had done all his rifles this way; it would have made my job much easier. Few 1903 Springfield sporters made by Fred Adolph are signed. Some of the Mausers such as the pictured Kurtz sporter are marked on the barrel “Adolph Mauser Cal. 25”. Although marked 25 caliber the rifle is chambered for the 6.5x54mm Mauser - not to be confused with the longer 6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer. I have seen other Mausers made by him that are stamped on the receiver with individual stamps “Fred Adolph Genoa N.Y.” When I saw the first one marked this way I was sure that the marking was bogus. Now having seen three all the same I am convinced that these markings are correct.


From sometime in the late 1920’s until his death I can find no evidence that Adolph, who was such a talented gunmaker, ever picked up another inletting chisel. He wrote and published poetry & music and painted, but turned his back on the thing that had cost him his reputation. I like the rifles that Fred Adolph made. The workmanship is first class; the fit and finish are beyond reproach. Today the carved stocks of Adolph’s may seem a little out of place compared to the modern custom rifle. With so many unanswered questions his work makes one wonder what could have been if he had continued gunsmithing. They are, however, a wonderful portal to the very beginning of the American custom sporting rifles as we know them today.<<


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=72941

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

You take this plus his over the top advertising and claims that with his talented hands, that from the Earth he extracted the raw components, which he molded and fashioned step by step to form his wares,which were bar none. He didn't do anything but but source the Best of the Best mechanics, possibly do a bit of chicken scratching on wood, and then peddle it as his own......



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

So, if strong-arm tactics Petrov is correct:

>>Adolph arrived in the US in 1908 with his English-speaking wife Minnie and became a naturalized citizen in 1919. It has been reported that Adolph worked for several different gunmakers in New York State. The only employment I was able to confirm was that he worked for a short time circa 1909-10 at Baker Gun & Forging Company Batavia, NY, makers of the “Baker & Batavia Guns”. He did work during 1910 when living in Rochester for Bausch & Lomb, the optical firm.<<

You are going to tell me that a Katt that worked @ Baker Gun & Forging Company as well as Bausch & Lomb is going to make a upper rung Sporting Weapon from raw components and then add adornment. Not going to happen; Con-Man.....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I will concur that the above could be considered advertising and a typical business modell(albeit a fan I am not) for the time as Ford suggests, but as always, I wish to toss credit where credits is due: Zella-Mehlis Mechanics like Adalbert Wolf, facilities like the Schilling Forge, etc.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I think that virtually no one or no company made the entire gun, lock, stock, and barrels. Much like autos and other products, the final guns were a combination of work produced by others and combined into a finished product. Daly seemed to do no work at all on their guns, but Lindner and later others sourced Daly guns and parts from all parts of Europe. Yes, Adolph's ads were flamboyant, maybe more so than most, but all ads try to put the best light on the products that are being sold. I don't think you do service to the fine engravers who decorated guns by Adolph when you use the term "chicken scratching". Why that term ? I do appreciate your posting Mike Petrov's research and thoughts and they generally agree with what I have found over the years. I wonder that "con man" might be a bit rough on the fellow. I know lots of people who have gone broke for one reason or another, but they were not "con men". They were people whose business failed for a variety of reasons. I wonder if it were not for the War and the apparent loss of his investment overseas , that possibly we might have been able to enjoy more Adolph style guns.

I agree that in a gunmaking centre that the final product of a finished weapon is a village effort, cottage industry. Too, I am harsh on Adolph but he is the one that set the bar high, and he himself could not deliver. Don't promise to over deliver if you cannot even deliver. Stay out of the kitchen if it is too hot...... Daly did state that they had a factory in Suhl. I too think he was delusional purporting that what he proffered was produced solely by his hand. He could have said he had a shop in Germany? And with that the question begs, where is Adolph's master mechanic sheepskin? Where did he go on his walkabout, if he even went. I think he was just a façade, master mechanic & legend in his own mind.

He seems to have sourced master mechanics and look @ the adornment on the forend of the subject longarm & tell me how you define it. Compare it to the stock, which I say was made in Zella - Mehlis. Tell me that isn't >>Chicken Scratching<<.

I do fully plan to find his German Subcontractors and if data points that his wares were fully completed in the U.S. of A., I will be the 1st to revise my assessment.

I think he oversold his wares, overloaded his boat, which sank due to his inability to finished weapons in the cellar of his house. The preponderance of evidence sure seems to tilt the scales in that direction. But as always, everyone is entitled to the opinion, and fantasy as it is.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

It is interesting if you read Mr Adolph own words in the germanhuntingguns archives, he was especially hard on those great gunmakers he so graciously used and took all the credit for their work. Others like SD&G pointed out in their advertising that it was made by others elsewhere. So I can completely understand Raimeys disdain for said creep. I do still judge the guns on individual merit not the name on the thing, and these can be good examples to do just that. Hope knowing he was a creep keeps pricing reasonable.

Most people can't handle the Truth. Almost all can't stomach it. All want to live in a fantasy world & purport and tout their virtues, as well as their abilities, whilst they do not practice what they preach. Now this is not a >>people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones<< scenario. Adolph lived in a >>Glass House<< that he built with his own hands & he threw the 1st stone.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ramey, so you are saying that Adolph was just a con man and that the unfortunate war [out of his hands] was not a contributing culprit. Could the con men have been those, mostly in Europe , that did not produce the products for him that he paid and contracted for ? Do you consider American makers Donn, Abbey, Jakob, Kuhn, Krider, Tonks, Patrick Mullin, John Mullin, and Thomas [Chicago] to be dishonest because they used European guns to finish up ? Do you consider Eastman, Whalen, Roosevelt, Crossman, Askins, H. Ford, Andrews, Smith [L C Family] to be fools when extolling the Adolph products built for them ? Do you consider Kornbrath, who is in the top echelon of American engravers as a purveyor of “chicken scratching”? I am puzzled by the attitude . Do you find fault with the Petrov history of Adolph ? Do you find fault with the Adolph products delivered ?

Few have addressed Mr. Tim Hanrahan's question about the worth of this superb 20 gauge long-barreled single trigger side x side shotgun in nearly original condition with its original case (that is worth alone US$1,500.00) made in Europe during the time when metal working and wood working perfection was the standard.

First I want to say to Mr. Hanrahan that the today in America and Great Britain is one of the worst times to sell a gun--it is a buyers time; and that the ultimate value of your gun could be several times greater if when and where you sell it that you sell it matters a great deal. And more specific to the details of the decoration of your gun and its quality workmanship areas of the world to sell it that would warrant much attention and amount offered that come to my mind are of course Germany and Austria; Cape Town, South Africa (because of the wealthy Germans who have moved there) and Saudi Arabia and adjoining countries. Saudi Arabia and adjoining countries because of the "desert fox" engraving motif on the left side of the action).

Fortunately this gun only a few screws turned out of its original alignment from the makers and only one place on the knuckle end of the fore-end wood that was not done by the original stockmaker and further except for the noted carving on the fore-end wood was entirely made in Europe.

Several things about this gun need to be known further to enhance its value and promotion for sale and those are the balance and weight of the gun, the barrel bore condition, its current chamber length in regards to its original proof marks, the overall condition of the barrels along their full length and so forth; and does the single trigger mechanism work properly. Many on this website do not like a side x side shotgun with a single trigger, but a shotgun with a pistol grip stock and a singe trigger that function perfectly is a joy to behold and shoot.

I am not certain that an appraisal by an American of the value of this gun is prudent for you, but instead contacting someone like Wolfgang von Brauchitsch in Germany who sometimes comments in posts on this website (Raimey can give you his email address). A poster has suggested that you contact the German gun collectors and doing that will be a wise thing for you to do.

In the current market of America (and as noted by another poster) this gun will bring between US$5,000-$10,000 but in my opinion will bring 2 times or more that if you choose the proper place to sell it. Keep in mind (and this deserves repeating) that you have a long-barreled 20 gauge side x side shotgun with a single trigger and "best quality" workmanship made during the finest era of Germanic gunmaking that has ever been---and where else have you ever seen another.

KIndest Regards;
Stephen Howell

I'll will get back to your Mr. Hallquist on this as I am having so much fun with this one.....


But if any one really believes in the wares Fred Adolph peddled, submit it to Lock, Stock & Barrel's Gunbroker auction, which is a penny(1¢) and watch it fly. LSB has been doing well and they seem to have the pulse of auctioning firearms thru their RV tour across the U.S. of A. program.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I just have to make the statement that Fred Adolph and Otto Reif must have been cousins, Brother-In-Laws, some relation...... as their modus operandi was parallel to infinity and beyond. But old Racecar Driver Otto Rief was tarred and feathered and run out on a rail for doing the same thing in Suhl, Germany. In Adoph's many sundry occupations, I just don't recall him being a Racecar Driver, but apparently he did land up driving a FORD?? Close enough huh??? When one thinks of Otto Reif, think of Fred Adolph......


Serbus,

Raimey

rse

It seems the only thing you're leaving out are the claims of him being a german agent and his plots to blow up bridges. Do you also suspect him to be a foreign agent?

Come now Raimey, don't mince words. Just come out and tell us what you really think.

Canvas-Back:

I was trying so hard to be politically correct, just for you, our Best Mate on the Northern Border.....


Serbus,


Raimey
rse

I very much appreciate the knowledge and wisdom you all are sharing on this thread. It’s a steep but extremely interesting learning curve for me. The makers’ complicated historical background and Fred Adolph’s checkered career path seem to contribute to rather than detract from the intrigue of this particular gun.

Raimey, Daryl, Mike (and Michael Petrov), thank you. Your knowledge of the background and commentary on questions regarding the origins of the components and craftsmanship effect its perception as an American gun and begin to define it perhaps more accurately as a German gun. Your input helps to clarify the significance of Fred Adolph’s guns in general.

Stephen Howell, you hit the nail on the head. I need to determine the significance of this particular piece. Thank you for directly addressing my original mission of sorting out the identity, significance, quality and value of this unique gun. I too was intrigued/perplexed by the “desert fox” motif. (the palm trees made me think it was intended for someone in South Carolina.) And I’m still very curious about the gold “WBS” monogram on the trigger guard. (does anyone know if there exists a file on clients he sold to?)

I have more detail photos but I’ll need to find a qualified person to assess the balance, weight, bore condition, chamber details and trigger functionality as you mentioned. Unfortunately I am in Oregon now and the gun is in Virginia.

Raimey if you are able to get me an email address for Wolfgang von Braushitsch in Germany I would very much appreciate it and will contact him as well. I’ve talked to an auction house and an appraiser in the US but it definitely seems worth investigating the international market if that’s where it’s German roots would be most appreciated and valued.

As I’m helping my brother-in-law and family settle their father’s estate my responsibility is to find an appropriate venue for selling this gun at the best price they can get. But personally I feel motivated to investigate it thoroughly to determine if it has unrecognized significance after having been safely tucked away in a closet for 50 to 100 years. I also feel obliged to respect it and see that it finds a proper new home where it will be fully appreciated.

Again, thanks. You guys are very cool. Tim

Tim; I spelled Wolfgang's surname incorrectly. It is Brauchitsch. Further since the gun is in Virginia I suggest that you take it down to gunsmith Gunter Pfrommer in Rocky Mount, Virginia and ask him to check it out. He should also have numerous German and Austrian contacts that may be helpful to you.

Wolfgang; I apologize for the incorrect spelling of your surname, please forgive me.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

Um, Wolfgang should cycle thru but I will push him thru tomorrow. But the international market, less maybe Russia which probably isn't a possibility, typically brings less and since the subject longarm is Fred Adolph badged, the U.S. of A. is the Best market. In Germany guns fetch 1/2 or less and then to import it will add say an additional $1k.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, if you could pleasure us with additional fotos of any marks, like the water-table & buttplate, we might add some info??

Does it have a menacing muzzle??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey;

It has been more than a decade since I lived in South Africa and the UK--- it is disappointing to hear from your viewpoint that the international gun market has turned upside down. My friend the famed South African gun expert and sporting writer Dr. Lucas Potgieter (Die Kruitvat gunshop near Joburg) would be able to tell us in a heartbeat what this gun would bring to the well heeled sportsmen down in the Cape and who was the person who would buy it, but alas he has passed on. However, Wolfgang's view is welcomed.

Regards;
Stephen Howell

It is just the sign of the times. Germany is on the cusp of passing legislation that will limit each citizen to 10(ten) weapons. Folks have chosen sides and many craftsmen have lost many clients due to the riff. It will be the same & the only thing that keeps things afloat is the U.S. of A. I have heard that many times in SA as well as Germany & Italy......


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Other than >>Lord of War<< trades, the U.S. of A. is the only stable platform that gives all other gun enthusiasts hope.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

If you would email those additional fotos to me, I would gladly post them.

If Wolfgang hasn't contacted, you, message or email me & I will complete the circuit.

Petrov, if anyone, would have had that list of clients.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I added a shot of the butt plate but have realized that I didn't shoot the water table. I can ask the other Tim to photograph that detail if it would help.

Added about 8 more photos but I'm afraid they are mostly redundant.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=257525
Not a Miller





But a Hunter One Trigger(HOT)??


https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ub...p;Board=1&main=12236&type=thread



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Or is it a Baker Gun & Forging type single selective that Sticky Fingers Fred Adolph lifted from Baker & used later? I will say that he may have installed the single selective trigger that he lifted somewhere.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Looking at the butt plate photo gives me a "headache". I am going to rethink the degree of original makers work on this gun and the gun's worth.

Regards;
Stephen Howell

To be honest, I just do not know where Sticky Fringers Freddy got that metal plate but I do recognize his chicken-scratching.

There are a few detractors that I think Freddy added himself, but overall it is a quality piece. I cannot remember what the tube length might be?

bushveld, come on over to the >>Dark Side<< where we welcome you with open arms......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/adolph-fred/

Too, on this Federal Form that Freddy filled out, he attests that was born to father Wilhelm in 1876(January 29th) and that he had 65(or is it 45) years in 1921? And I have seen other numbers for his date of birth. So will the True Birth Date of Freddy please stand up??

He just couldn't tell the same thing twice. He interjected chaos into his data & evidently Chaos was his Life. That's why he advertised >>Never the Same Gun Twice<< as he sourced a different German mechanic for all of his wares.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And to be blatantly honest, you ask a German authority on German guns about ole Freddy Adolph and they run for the hills, mum on the subject. No one wants to um address Freddy's louche history, not now or previously, even Petrov. But Freddy did thru his adverts....... But can Freddy be believed on one single item??


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

[quote=bushveld]Looking at the butt plate photo gives me a "headache". I am going to rethink the degree of original makers work on this gun and the gun's worth......./quote]

I believe you are searching for the term >>rakish<<<......


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Nice gun as long as you avoid looking at her dairy'air....

Yes, it is a quality made shotgun, but now that I see more of it's non-original 'adders" it value has decreased unfortunately by thousands to my mind.

However, for any of you gun case experts look at the beautifully woven ribbon that is attached to the case under the butt stock. Where does this clue indicate the case was made and when? I would like to see photos of the case exterior. The case looks more British to me now that I can see this ribbon.



Regards;
Stephen Howell

Oh I understand now this guy put his personal mark on many of his guns. Kinda reminds me of what tribes around the world would do to their guns. Wish they wouldn’t do that!


Bedazzled! Maybe it was in style back then?

I just added about ten more detail shots of the stock and case. More fodder for the lively discourse. Time has been less kind to the exterior of the leather case. The handle attachment has decayed but the straps are intact and the overall sturdiness of the case seems solid.

sorry. Here's that link again:

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...b0QxX0kzRzgxWU5HakpSQ0VFMGRVaVdIQVJ0VHJn

Here I am with some delay. To be honest, I was not aware of Fred Adolph until now, but it is undoubtedly a very nice Suhl shotgun. The engraving is excellent, unfortunately even Hendrik Frühauf can not say who was the creator.
The value, as everyone here knows, is measured by how much someone is willing to pay for it. My estimate is that the shotgun could bring about 3000 € (+-) in Germany. The problem here might also be the lack of awareness of Fred Adolph in Germany.

Waidmannsheil,
Wolfgang

@bushveld

Don't worry, Stephen! Even Germans have problems with my name from time to time...

WmH,
Wolfgang

I'd think being a 20 gauge in the condition it appears to be in it would sell well over 3 grande...maybe knocking on 5 grande.

Do I hear 6 grande ?

Thank you all. Any recommendations for best venue to offer this shotgun up for sale much appreciated. So far I'm waiting to hear from RockIslandAuction.com to see what value a quality firearms auction house might appraise it at. Of course it all depends on the market and the day. But we welcome any other thoughts or recommendations for the best way to sell it. As you probably already would have surmised, we are not licensed to deal in firearms. Thanks, TimH

Please post when and where you do eventually list, it would be interesting to see how much she sells for. I’m not a bidder on this one but if it was a16ga with 2 triggers I probably would.The added carving really isn’t that bad on this one after looking at his others. My guess( after buying 8 German guns in the last 3 years online) would be 6k. Good Luck and thanks for sharing, as always here I learned a few things from your post/thread.

Well, info does suggest, suggest mind you, that Fast Freddy Adolph was indeed a >>Büchsenmachermeister<< or a Master Mechanic Gunsmith with a Sheepskin stating such. Too, there was a Master Mechanic Gunsmith Gustav Adolph in Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis, who was mainly a target arms fella, but he could have well been the contact for ole Fast Freddy Adolph and would explain just why Fast Freddy Adolph's wares had a Z-M flare?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

How much is it worth ?

Whatever it will realize @ auction.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Follow Up:
We thought those of you who contributed to the discussion and research on this Fred Adolph 20 gauge would be interested to know that this gun and case will be presented for sale in Rock Island Auction's Premier
Firearms Auction on August 27, 2023. Here is a link to the listing:

https://www.rockislandauction.com/d...-20-gauge-boxlock-double-barrel-shotgun.

The pre-auction estimate range seems consistent with the valuations discussed on this thread (of course without the benefit of actual physical inspection). They provide an in-depth description in the auction catalog.

Thank you all again for your kind assistance and contribution to our research on this family heirloom. Let's see how it does on the day.

Cheers,
Tim and Tim

Unfortunately, RIA did no favors for the owner in providing their characteristic dark, hard to access and "few" pictures on their auction site. I would have a hard time bidding on an expensive gun at Rock Island unless I were there.

They will, of course, sent you all the pics you want, if you ask. Their descriptions tend to be sparse and they are prone to "overlooking" details you would want to know about.

It makes me sad to see a gun pass out of the family, a generation or two from now someone will be very sad to have lost it. While a piece of gun making art, it is more than that, when one’s ancestors are connected to it as your gun has been, when I use my grandfather’s deer rifle or .22 lever action I am shooting with him.

I realize that I have profited by being able to buy guns like what I described, but it still is with some remorse for those who lost out on the connection.

PS looking at the above “...never pay Dave "one more dime" drove me to make yet another donation

In the spirit of following through on this thread, here is the link to the now active live auction in which the Fred Adolph gun is scheduled to go on the block in the next hour or two.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/live/

It will be LOT 3429. We’ll soon get an idea of the market value. Thanks for all your help. TDH

Estimate was $5000.00 - $7500.00
It sold for $6463.00.