Had a call this morning from my close shooting buddy. This guy was responsible for fueling my addiction in English guns. But I could tell he was distraught very fast into the conversation. Started by saying he had just left Fed Ex shipping his nice Boss to a dealer up north. And plans on shipping his Purdey pigeon gun tomorrow as well.
All his other English guns are going as well. Mostly Grants.
His frustration stems from multiple things and last week something happened that broke the camel's back so to speak. Seems he is fed up with repair costs, wait times on repairs (I'm talking months), no 2 1/2" shells nowhere to be found.
But the straw last week was he just got one gun back after months wait at this well know dealer / repair shop and paid almost $1400 for one repair only to find they had scratched the blueing off one of the barrels.
I suppose I should have seen it coming. I mean it's true about everything he was saying. It's expensive for repairs and the long wait. I want a leather pad installed and had to get on a wait list three months ago and still have a month to wait before I just take it there. No telling how long it will be before I see it again.
No ammo and if you find any the cost is more than I can stand, but I pay it anyway.
So for me to hear this guy say all this it just comes back to me everything I have been seeing and hearing for the last two years.

reload. Always have shells and it's cheaper. I have 1600 16 ga 2.5" shells loaded up. Nothing else to do when I was recovering from shoulder surgery. lol I'm on an 8 month wait list to have a Westley oak and leather case refitted.

Shooting vintage guns can be like sailing, standing in a cold shower shredding 20’s and 50’s, claiming enjoyment. However the enjoyment does exist in doses that for me overcome the negatives.

For example, after buying a project Boss which took nine months to complete import, then onto restocking last May, back in October just in time for pheasant in South Dakota, the six of seven engaged make it all worth while.

Yes 2 1/2 12 is a pain, especially if you are almost pure 16 as I am, but the pleasure of loading roll crimped 1 1/8 #7 nickel silver plated hard shot, then seeing do beautifully again worthwhile.

I may soon be selling some guns, but only to make room in the budget for another, and to accept the guns I do not use need to be used by someone.

Well, the big thing I was into before vintage SxS was sailing keel boats. So your analogy rings absolutely true. LOL

I've spent my fair share of time waiting on gunsmiths. I learned early to stockpile the shells I like to use when I could, because you can never find them when you need them. And I accept the inconvenience of the whole endeavor. If I wanted easy, I'd shoot a modern 20 gauge auto. Easy isn't why I do this. I wave guys off this route if they want easy. I like it the way it is, headaches and all.

I would say that I feel your pain (because I do) but Wm. Jefferson fouled that expression forever. Shooting 16’s exclusively I dealt with the shell question long ago and started reloading everything I shoot. Frankly, it’s part of the enjoyment now and I never tally up the costs.

And as for the ‘smithing costs, there was a period where frustration caused serious reflection. I came out of that with a settled sense that I really, really enjoy owning and shooting and hunting these old SxS’s.

I haven’t looked back.

I’m sorry your friend came out in a different place.

Well said Canvasback and Old Colonel. And agree with Mike Harrell about reloading. Not only does it solve the problem of 2.5-inch shell scarcity, it enhances the whole experience even for standard-length shells. I enjoyed taking a few doves this past weekend with my LC Smith 12 gauge, choked full and full, using 2.75-inch reloads: 7/8 ounce #7.5 in left barrel, 7/8 ounce #8 with x-stream spreader in right barrel. Perfect for those high-flying late season birds.

Primers are as scarce as 2.5-inch shells.

Fortunately I have stockpiled enough for years, and once fired 12 Federal Paper Hulls can be found. Plastic Federal Gold Medal work well too.

Primers, get yer primers here

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/C...0-boxes-20000-primers/productinfo/CH209/

And the price is now down below $60 per thousand

For you 16ga guys these made in France offerings have done well in my 2.5 Krupp barreled sxs and a5s. Factory short!

Now dont blast me, but will someone please tell me why it is sooooo important to someone to own a gun that only safely shoots 2.5 inch shells when there is a myriad of choices of others that will shoot 2.75, or even, God forbid, 3 inch shells. Are the 2.5 inch shooters THAT much more appealing than guns with longer chambers? Obviously I dont own any of these 2.5 inch shooters so I would simply appreciate it if someone will calmly tell me what the allure is about them?? Thanks, and NO, I am not trying to start any arguments or criticize anyones personal choices. I simply want to know. Again, thanks.

Many of the most quality guns made were made between 1900 -1935 which mean short chambers. Now you can buy modern best guns with 70mm chambers but odds are they will cost several thousands more. Much easier for me to buy a fine German bird gun with 2.5” chambers for say 3k vs a Piotti BSEE 70mm chambered equivalent for 15k. Not much difference in quality between the 2, Hence reloading room with 2.5in 12 and 16ga press and lots of supply’s. Often thought of selling 5 to buy the one but 5 is more fun!

Good question, no offense taken.

The answer is not as technical as it is aesthetic. I derive significant pleasure from hunting a 120 yr old gun which was the top of the line in its day and still performs beautifully in terms of function and balance (MOI). As JTplumb notes I am able to shoot an older project gun properly restored for a fraction of what I would have to pay for a modern (last 25 year) original 2 3/4 proofed Boss SLE. I do not even know the current price of a new bespoke Boss or Purdey as I could sell my entire collection and would still be unwilling to pay that much. Even a bespoke Fox from CSMC, though very nice, lacks just a little bit.

It further amuses me to shoot a gun from a time my Grandfathers could not have afforded to buy, it is confirmation their sacrifices resulted in something as they were both bird hunters. I believe they would approve.

I own several vintage guns made with 70mm chambers in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s, but they lack for me what my late 1800’s early 1900’s guns have. One can claim a degree of affectation for the old guns, which maybe true, but I think it is much, much more than that.

Remember, Parker cut chambers 2 5/8” but recommended shooting 2 3/4” ammunition. They wanted the hulls to open part way into the forcing cone, feeling that provided a better gas seal. Other American makers did the same. Me? All my ancient doubles, some 150+ years old, fire the long hulls with zero Ill effects. As long as the mouth of the fired hull is smooth and not frayed I feel the long hull is perfectly acceptable. Tens of thousands of rounds in American and English guns with zero problems. And as far as I can learn pressures only increase a minimal amount, well within acceptable limits. To each his own……much about nothing.

+1

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

I wonder if this is sort of private club, top rail drink talk. After a little venting, it's time to settle on dates for the estate .410 shoot.

Back in the late 80's to early 90's I was sailing a mid 30+ foot Hunter sailboat in the Chesapeake Bay for a break from school. That was an expensive hobby even done on the cheap. I do not care for easy. I like old, unique, odd and obsolete. I have taken dove and wood ducks with a 20 bore muzzle loader percussion double, built or converted from flintlock in 1825. I broke 80 on a sporting clay's course, with a WR crab joint 12 bore hammer gun, beating a friend using his O/U K 80. He was not happy. Shoot better I told him. I have been shooting a central vision 12 and crossover 12's just for th fun of it. I shoot 42's on dove with short shells. I am going to take a Ithaca 20 bore Flues with 30" barrels dove shooting next rip. It has 2 1/2" chambers and is choked F and F which I hope is a great long range gun for late season dove. I am going to find out. All my guns are bought with the intention to shoot them, even the nice ones.

I have one or more example of almost all American made pump guns that I am shooting skeet and trap with just so they get some use. They range from Bannerman Spencer, to Winchester 97, 12, 42, Remington 10, 17, 29, 31, three Toldeo Arms models, Browning designed pumps built by Stevens and Savage, Ithaca 37's, Marlin 28, 31, 42, 43 and 44, High Standard/ JC Higigns model 20, Weatherby Patrician, Mossberg 500/835 and a few even odder oddballs, that time has forgotten. Pump guns are American gun type for the most part and they have fallen out of favor with many. But they are just fun to use and not very expensive to collect for the most part.

You are right that loading our own shells makes things ever so much easier. I am still working through 30,000 Federal Paper hulls I got from the Olympic shooting training facility over 20 years ago. Nothing is as classic to me as a paper hull, loaded with Red Dot powder, shot on a cool morning. They trim down nicely to 2" or 2 1/2" and look great rolled crimped. It has taken me decades to figure out what are safe and effective load for classic guns and now being able to load them makes a ton of difference. I now have over five thousand 2 1/2" 20 gauge shells loaded up for future use and about the same in 12 gauge. All safe to use in my short chambered, classic guns, without worry about pressure or being too long. It is so much easier to just grab boxes already loaded rather than trying to locate safe factory shells when I want to go shooting.

" Browning designed pumps built by Stevens and Savage," in Europe these are exotic items. For some of us their art Deco streamlined shapes rival the appeal of classic best. And gunsmithing on them is simple and cheap.

Personally I rate the Stevens 620 as a classic, maybe because I can't get one anywhere in Europe.

I never thought of mine as exotic, but never it never fails to wow viewers when I take it apart and they see the genius of Jonathan Browning on display. I admit to not being a pumpgun enthusiast like KY Jon, but the uniqueness of this design was not lost on me when Lloyd offered a 20 ga. for sale on here years ago. It is certainly fun on the dove field, as I expect it would be in a wood duck bog. I may just have to see, one morning soon.

I’ve cut back on clay shooting but lack of ammo is just part of that equation. Shooting real game is where it’s at and you really don’t need that many shells for it. We are also doing more deer hunting and fishing.

LOL, It might be....... if I was a member of a private club. Or had a .410. Or didn't like the "hunting" part of hunting.

The Browning designed pumps, come in several flavors, plus private label like those made for Sears or Wards. I like the early models with the forwards safety but own all three types of safeties . I think all of mine have solid ribs which was not that common.

They work well, but are not what I consider to be the best design or the worst. The worst has to be the Toledo Arms designs, both early and late. The best is a personal choice, with the Remington 31, Ithaca/Remington 37/17 and the Winchester 12/42 all worth owning and shooting. The worst to disassemble and reassemble has to be the Marlin “Chinese puzzle” bolt pumps. They work but seem to be a snake when you are putting them back in order. Once you learn how to do it they are only slightly goofy to work on.

About gunsmiths; Most are backed up and have more work that you can say grace over. Think about it. Many have retired, passed away, or not able to do as much as they once did. So we have lost some of the good ones. So now there are less gunsmiths to do the work, but the work still needs to be done by the few remaining ones. Now I just can not think of very many new ones popping up to take the place of the others.

John Boyd

If we want more good doublegun gunsmiths, we need to support the American Custom Gunmakers Guild. An associate membership is $65 for calendar year if I remember correctly. The ACGG is actively trying to pass on gunsmithing skills to the new generation of gunsmiths interested.

Geez, I thought someone died or got a terminal illness when I saw the title of this Thread. Owning guns, hunting, and shooting has always been as expensive as you want it to be. A bird shot with an English Best gun is not killed any more dead than a bird shot with a Nitro Special. But even the really expensive stuff can still be a relative bargain if you buy intelligently. And what hasn't gotten significantly more costly since anti-gun Democrats got control? Add to that the loss of buying power due to inflation, and what most of us have lost in our 401-K's and other investments, and it's little wonder that many folks are reevaluating the costs of hobbies and other interests... such as buying food...

I'd bet the cost of buying and servicing a new pickup truck has increased more than the cost of buying guns and having them repaired. I do all of my own gun repairs, which may not save me much when I factor in the cost of tools. But I enjoy doing it, and don't have to worry about long waits or FedEx losing or damaging my guns. I have shotshell loaders in 10, 12. 16, 20, and 28 gauge. I also reload for most of my rifles and handguns too. The savings from reloading are not as great as they once were. But it does help, and creates options during times when factory ammo is expensive or in short supply due to panic buying or fear driven hoarding. I fondly recall getting some pretty dirty looks several years ago when Obama was president. I would walk past the ammo vendors at gun shows and loudly ask my buddy, "I wonder how many dumbass Obama voters we have here standing in line to pay a buck a round for .223 shells?" Some pain is self-inflicted.

If things get really bad, I can always watch some YouTube videos and learn to make my own homemade black powder. I plan to continue to keep shooting as long as I have the strength to lift a gun and pull a trigger. Cost or inconvenience isn't going to stop me.

From sail boats to vintage guns....

The breeze in your face....reminds me of my Harley days.

Stan I thought a race boat driver like you would be shooting a pimped out semi auto.

Back in the 50s up to late 80s i did not know what a 2 1/2 shell was and shot 2 3/4 shells in all my vintage doubles and had no problems at all. Bobby

I joined the $8.00 a box factory shell club, stockpiled a few four packs, just in case. However, I keep seven or eight loaders on the bench in running condition to keep the price of shells under the Walmart price.