I'm down to 2 boxes of 12 ga 2 1/2" RST low pressure shells.

I've been successfully shooting Federal Top Gun 12 ga 2 3/4", 1145 fps, 2 3/4 dram eq., 1 1/8 oz shells out of my French 2 1/2" chambered SxS. It has impressive barrel wall thickness. I'd like to try them in my Damascus barreled Reilly hammer gun. How can one find out the pressures generated by this round? Previous discussions indicated the Federal shells had the lowest pressure in general. Will writing to Federal help?

(I know we've been down this route before but it's time to fish or cut bait on the Reilly hammer gun. RST is still hors de combat. Either put it on the shelf, get back into reloading - it you can find the components, shoot the French gun with its 3/4 chokes, or just give up and shoot the 20 and 16 gauge).

My Federal shells are quite old, bought during the height of the pandemic shortage but they match this Federal load currently advertised except mine ar 7 1/2 not 8:

Tom Roster Tests shotgun shell pressures. I believe you send him five but here is his contact info. Contact him in Oregon at (541) 884-2974, tomroster@charter.net.

I'd be surprised if Federal gave out any pressure information on their shotshell loads. B & P is one of the few major companies I've had any luck with, when requesting pressures.

I use Tom Armbrust to test shotshell pressures, and he also provides the velocity of each load with calculations of the standard deviation and average velocity, which may be more than you want to know. Send him five or six shells, but you'd better do it quick because he shuts down during the winter months and doesn't start back testing until spring. The cost last time I sent some was $5 per shot.

Tom Armbrust, Ballistic Research, 1108 W. May Avenue, McHenry, IL 60050-8918, phone: 815.385.0037.

Gene, two years old is NOT "old age" for shells!

Under our SAAMI standards, 12ga maximum average pressure is 11,500 psi. That's higher than I'd want to go with a Damascus barreled gun. Assuming it has 2 1/2" chambers as does your French gun, the extra length of a 2 3/4" hull will increase that pressure somewhat. The average increase in Sherman Bell's tests reported in Double Gun Journal was a bit over 700 psi. So now you're on the far side of 12,000 psi. I think most people who reload 2 3/4" hulls for use in Damascus guns with 2 1/2" chambers would advise you to steer clear of pressures in that range. American shotshell manufacturers focus on producing loads that meet the stated velocity (which gives some idea of how much recoil they'll deliver), but only concern themselves with SAAMI pressure standards.

I would try and find one ounce or even 7/8 oz loads under 1200 fps. Use a search engine like ammoseek.com. I've found B&P one ounce at 1160 fps which are loaded to CIP pressures. Those 1 1/8 loads are probably hard kickers in a light gun. Hard on the wood too.

The components to load 2 1/2 inch loads are available. Powder and primers are in better supply than a few months ago.

Natchez just received B&P 7/8 oz. and 1 oz. Competition One, but limits 1 case with killer shipping to AZ
https://www.baschieri-pellagri.com/...da+tiro/trap-skeet+training/1/index.aspx
The 7/8 oz. is 7250 psi; 1 oz. 8100 psi
https://www.natchezss.com/ammunitio...asc&istock=202997&order=position

Yes we have and nothing has changed.

Federal hulls are often chosen to hand load lower pressure shells because data is published for them using wads intended for tapered hulls.

This does not mean that factory loaded Federal shells have the 'lowest pressure in general'. That is a dangerous extrapolation and has no basis in fact.

Cheddite primers and Ramshot Competition are currently available online. I'd start there.

FWIW, Kent offers some low pressure 12ga loads in 2-1/2" and 2-3/4". I bought some about three years ago for a Brit hammer gun with twist barrels but have not shot them yet. Local SxS target shooters like those loads a lot. Fiocchi offers a 2/3/4" training load of 7/8oz #8s at 1200fps that is low pressure. I got the pressure info directly from Fiocchi, but don't remember what they said, just that it was surprisingly low. The silver box Win Super-X (made in Italy or Australia?) have a reputation for being soft shooting, but I don't have hard data on those. I have used them in older guns with great results. Gamaliel used to sell low pressure loads in 20ga from Clever, I think they were Mirage Featherlights, #8 at 1200fps. There might be a similar load in 12 ga. Gamaliel's sale to Brownell's, and subsequent separation of their retail operation has confused things (at least for me), but it's worth a couple of calls.

The big companies buy powder in huge lots that are NOT a powder we can buy over the counter. They work upa load that fits their velocity needs that are less than SAMMI pressure standards. It could be 8000 psi or 11,000. And the next lot will be different,could be higher or lower. French guns are well known to for the most part be hell for stout. There are handloads using Federal wads or clones and Federal hulls that are low enough pressure to meet the requirements of a 2 1/2" gun. With all the high school trap teams shooting Federal those hulls are easy to find. Good luck in your search.

My last purchase of the excellent Kent 2 1/2" 7/8 oz. @ 1200 fps load was from https://huntstuff.com/k-elite-low-recoil-and-training/ which is in Chesapeake, VA. but I haven't been able to find any in stock, anywhere. You might give them a call Gene since they are close-by 757-641-4568

This.

I have been trying to tell guys for about two decades that the store bought load they had pressure tested a year or two ago has no bearing whatsoever on the load that is sitting on the shelf this year, even if it is the same style of box.

The boutique ammunition guys, yes, if that is what they tell you. But, those guys aren't saying much at all, right now.

Best,
Ted

We've discussed this a few times. Last March I asked the same question when in dire need of shells. I bought the Federals specifically because of Drew's posting of Bell's chart. I reasoned that those Federal shells were close enough to #4 below (except mine of course are plastic not paper). I shot those Federal shells today in my 12 ga French Saint-Etienne proofed "Wonder"...circa 1926.. without a problem...with a goodly amount of recoil. But based on the comments, I did not use them in the Damascus barreled Reilly. I'll look for 7/8 oz Federal shells. (yet per bell's chart the difference between 7/8 oz Federals - plastic hulls - and 1 1/8 oz - paper hulls - was almost negligible). Just wish RST would get back into the business.

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ub...;Main=48256&Number=612418#Post612418

Repost:
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Thanks Ted, I looked for the Federal for a reason...from this line which is pretty good I think:

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=400821

Thinking of: 12 gauge 2 3/4" Winchester AA extra lite shell, 1145 fps, 1 oz, 7 1/2 shot. If they can be found,
But reading the comments in the above line, Federal hulls produce dramatically lower pressure than Winchester.

I'll repost Dr. Drew's chart with the black splotches eliminated:

Many thanks to Bill Johnson for scanning and sending "Long Shells in Short Chambers", Sherman Bell with technical assistance from Tom Armbrust in "Finding Out for Myself", Part V, Double Gun Journal, Winter 2001

The test barrel was a "heavy" Krieger barrel with piezo-electric transducer at 1" from the breech and an Oehler velocity gauge 2 5/16" from the breech.
Tests were performed:
1. 2 1/2" chamber with a 7/16" forcing cone - "British chamber" (BC)
2. 2 1/2" chamber with a 1 1/4" forcing cone - "Modified British chamber" (MBC)
3. 2 3/4" chamber with a 1" forcing cone - "American Chamber" (AC)
Each load was tested in each chamber at least 5 times.
No significant change in velocity was noted between the 3 test chambers
It was not unusual to have 300-600 psi spread between shots

LOADS
1. 7/8 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1185 fps in the 2 3/4" chamber
2. 7/8 oz. in Estate plastic hull at 1206 fps
3. 1 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1137 fps
4. 1 1/8 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1120 fps
5. 1 oz. in Remington plastic hull at 1205 fps
6. 1 1/8 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1186 fps
7. 1 1/4 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1091 fps
8. 1 1/4 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1136 fps
9. 1 1/8 oz. with GOEX FFFg in Federal paper at 1184 fps
10. 1 1/8 oz. Bismuth in Federal plastic at 1091 fps
I only include the standard target or game loads that were tested

��..BC--...MBC-....AC-..Difference BC vs AC
1)..5725--...5905-..4834--..891 psi
2)..6225--...6065-..5009--..1216 psi
3)..5865--...5325-..5263--..602 psi-.."long cones do reduce pressure"
4)..5845--...5665-..5058--..787 psi
5)..7805--...7845-..7577--..228 psi
6).11,125-.11,045-10,787-..338 psi
7)..6892--...6805-..5953--..939 psi
8)..8765--...8545-..7870--..895 psi
9)..5405--...5265-..4603--..802 psi
10).6765--...6365-..6380--..385 psi

argo, if you are feeling a goody amount of recoil when shooting any ammo, best to stop shooting that ammo, before you crack the wood...


be patient, the marketplace will eventually fill the void for light recoiling ammo...too much demand and money to be made for that not to happen soon...

The French "Wonder" is a box lock with a healthy stock too. It's a war trophy I bought pretty cheaply as an extra gun for my Special Forces weekenders with several buddies. It's not going to crack. It may have been cheap but it still handles nicely and is quite attractive.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=481696

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re the competion one ammo...

i used to use those for skeet...they are pleasant to shoot in old guns...

What is the effect of using tapered shell wads in straight walled hulls?

They gas seal poorly resulting in lower chamber presure.

Powder migration may or may not be a problem depending on the powder.

As a 16ga shooter, I remember being really excited to hear that Federal had come out with a factory 7/8 oz 16ga load. But I wasn't thinking clearly. Federal wasn't looking at the niche market of the relatively small number of people who seek out light loads to shoot in vintage/foreign guns. They were looking at dove hunters. And those shells had a velocity of somewhere north of 1300 fps IIRC.

The Winchester low noise/low recoil shells are one way to go. But shooting skeet on days when it's well below freezing, I've heard quite a few "poofy" reports. Might work OK in more moderate climates.

Going with CIP proof ammo will reduce pressure somewhat, their average service pressure for "standard" loads being several hundred psi below our SAAMI standard. But they're still close to 11,000 psi as we measure it.

The solution has always been to reload. Except you need the right components to turn out low pressure loads. And you may very well have difficulty finding those.

Thank you Mr. Jones. I'll go back and read the Bell article again. I was under the impression he was reporting on factory loaded ammunition.

Now, what is it about the Reilly research that you find unintelligent? Just curious. Thanks again.

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