I have a Darne V gun. Just returned from Mr. Merrington with a clean bill of health. My question- it is clearly marked as a V20- 10 poincon strikes but with V22 style engraving with dogs and fox hunting scenes each side. It is a very early gun with 3 digit serial #. Can I assume earlier guns had more extensive engraving patterns on lower grade guns?

Salut,

Plus ils sont vieux plus ils sont beaux !
V19 fabriqué vers 1905.

The standard engraving on a V20 was gamescene. Always. As our friend Fab has illustrated, there were options available. Those options usually involved money, but, not always.


Best,
Ted

Thank you. Very nice gun, sorry I do not speak French.

Plus ils sont vieux plus ils sont beaux !
V19 fabriqué vers 1905.

The older they are, the more beautiful
V19 made around 1905

Serial #37x- can anybody tell me the year of manufacture?

Here is the general dating chart for Darne serial numbers. Ted will tell you that there are discrepancies.



1910-1925 the SN's are a letter beginning with "A" followed by three numbers. Before that they apparently are chronological.

Thank you Argo. Mine is a 2 piece stock. Where does that fall in the lineage without a letter prefix? Post 1910 or on the cusp?

Have to defer to the former Importer Ted. Perhaps FAB might weigh in again. I'm wondering if there were a letter prefix and it became obscured somehow.

Prairie Ghost;

That is a beautiful gun.

Thank you BV. No prefix anywhere serial # is stamped or evidence of removal. Interesting Fab's gun has a toggle safety, this is sliding move to the rear to fire.

The gun Fab illustrates is a transitional model, built before the V model we recognize today became the only V model. Regis Darne patented several new designs in 1909, which, were built alongside the older versions for some time.

A good, clear photo of the flats of your guns barrels would help immensely in narrowing down the age. Markings came and went at the proof house as laws changed, and seeing what marks are there is more important than the serial number from a date of manufacture perspective.

That is a beautiful V20.

Best,
Ted

I see now on the barrel there is what appears to be a 'U' prefix not seen on the action.

I think the chart is going to be pretty accurate on this one. The oval marking regarding the barrels being silver soldered, and not welded, disappeared after the proof laws changed in 1923.

I’m guessing very early 1920s. Exact year might be hard to say, but, that would be pretty close.

Best,
Ted

It's got the mm designation for chambers "65" not cm "6.5" meaning it is at least post June 1912.

I'm going to assume that the number on the Barrels, "U375" is in fact the Serial Number of the gun:



1910-1925 with a Letter followed by 999 guns means that Darne made about about 15,000 guns in those 15 years..minus four years of war.....= 11 years = about 1360 guns a year.
. . . . .-- V-Z (5 x 1360) = 6800 guns + 640 (U999-375) = 7440 guns
. . . . .-- 7440 = about 5.5 years of production at 1360 guns a year
. . . . .-- Now count backwards 5.5 years from 1925.

So it seems the gun were made circa mid 1919.... QED.

(Surely there was not a steady number of guns produced each year so the above is approximate. 1914 for instance would have had only 8 months...etc. But this is close enough. Say post war, probably 1919).

Thank you all for your wealth of knowledge, made my day!

Math is totally off.

A-Z is 26.
26 x 1000 = 26000
Divided by 11 years (1910-1925 minus 4 war years) = 2,365 guns a year more or less.
V-Z is 5 years x 2365 - 11,700 + 625 = about 12,300 guns.
12,300 divided by 2365 = almost exactly 5.5 years.

So make it late 1919, early 1920. And Ted was pretty much spot on as usual. And the erroneous math turned out to be not so erroneous. (I'm reviewing my 1950's algebra texts as we speak).

Let's see:
26 x 1000 = x
x ÷ (15 - 4) = y
5y + (1000-325) = z
z ÷ y = q
1925 - q = s

Corrections appreciated.

Salut,

Il est impossible de dater un Darne par rapport à son numéro de série.

Un calcul mathématique basé sur la liste fournie par Argo44 ne peut pas fonctionner.

Les entreprises Darne éprouvaient plusieurs milliers de canons dans un labs de temps très court. Ceux-ci étaient stockés, puis utilisés dans leur production.
Avec cette manière de faire, certains canons pouvaient rester des années, voire des décennies avant d’être utilisés.

D’après les marquages, les canons ainsi que l’arme ont été éprouvés après 1923.

Il faudrait que tu mettes une ou deux photos de la clé d’ouverture pour établir si le système de déverrouillage du pied de clé qui permet de sortir la culasse de la table et du brevet de 1921 (ouverture à volet) ou du brevet de 1928 (déverrouillage par arrachement).

A rough translation of Fab’s post:


Hi,

It is impossible to date a Darne by its serial number.

A mathematical calculation based on the list provided by Argo44 cannot work.

The Darne companies tested several thousand guns in a very short period of time. These were stored and then used in their production.
With this way of doing things, some guns could remain for years, even decades, before being used.

According to the markings, the barrels as well as the weapon were tested after 1923.

You would have to put one or two photos of the opening key to establish if the unlocking system of the key foot which allows the breech to be removed from the table and the 1921 patent (shutter opening) or the 1928 patent (breech removed by pulling the key up).

That is the end of Fab’s post.

I’ll try to fill in a couple holes.

The “shutter” that Fab mentions was used on Darne V models for a time, and was the system used on a P grade gun. We don’t get to see many P models in North America, but, they compare nicely to V models. If you can, a good, clear photo from straight above the opening lever, and a photo of the breech removed and the lever work exposed will illustrate exactly what V system your gun uses.

We are in the ballpark on age with your V. Sometimes, that is all you get. Sometimes, you don’t even get that.

If you have a gun with the “SPC” or SPL” designation in the serial number, it can’t be dated at all. You will get some help on a gun with a serial number like that if it is importer marked, and you know what years the importer was doing those importations. The “SPC” and “SPL” prefix were applied to guns ordered with special length short and special length long barrels respectively and were built and numbered out of sequence.

Best,
Ted

I'll get photos today. Thanks to all for the help, quite the mystery with these guns.
Kelly

The crossed lightning bolts proof mark tells us this gun was proofed, in St. Etienne in a finished state. Many are the Darne guns that I have measured barrel walls on that are at .050 MW at the critical 9” from the breech location. The heavy wall barrels were considered the best guns to shoot and use by the guys at the shop when I was there.

I have always wondered if the heavy wall thickness was insurance on a gun proofed at completion against the always heavy French proof?

Best,
Ted

I have two Darnes, both early guns. The first is an R11 (one grade stamp, done as an asterisk and not the later circle) 10 gauge with 2-7/8 inch chambers and a serial number in the 6500 range. The second is a P19 12 gauge with 6.5 cm chambers in the 13000 serial number range. Both are extremely nice guns. The 10 gauge weighs a mere 7 pounds 3 ounces and gets a diet of RST and reloaded 1-1/8 ounce shells. The 12 weighs right at 6 pounds 12 ounces.

They either have been refinished or were extraordinarily well cared for, as both are in excellent condition.

If any more pictures are needed please let me know. Again, thanks to all for the excellent information and feedback.

That is the latest incarnation of the Darne V gun, lever held in place by a powerful spring up the lever. Very good design, but, a bad, bad thing when the spring breaks. That is the bad news. The very good news is that in forty years of playing this game, I’ve never seen a broken Darne V lever spring. It happens infrequently enough that the guys in France didn’t give me a spare for my Darne dealer parts collection. The only spare V parts I got were trigger return springs, and I have every one I watched Paul Bruchet bend up for me when I was there.

Use that gun in good health. I was out today, using a straight stocked V19 20 gauge with a swamped rib. Too warm, too many bugs, but the worst thing was my dog handled three woodcock spectacularly, and the area I was hunting was closed to hunting migratory birds.

All we could do was watch them fly away.




Anyway, your Darne is a short chamber 12 (or, was a short chamber gun, might not be, now) that was subjected to French triple proof and marked with the new style marking for that level of proof. That mark came into use with the new proof laws, circa 1923. The old mark for triple proof had been four crossed sheaths of wheat. But, other marks are on the gun that disappeared from use around the same time the laws changed.

Again, I’m pretty close on the date. I’m mostly sure the last patent V gun was being produced and sold well before that patent was issued in 1928.

Best,
Ted

Actually WAS a short chamber 16, Mr. Merrington just lengthened and opened the chokes for me. Much more usable for me now and in the future. I can't fathom the use of extra full chokes on an upland gun. Thank you for the info.

At the time it was made, plastic shotcups weren't the rule nor were they available. Fiber wads shoot more open. However, it still probably shot tighter than Dick's hatband, but not nearly as much as with plastic shotcups. Gil

Tight bores for a 12, too. I’m not a 40 yard shooter, either. I’m sure it will work better for you, now.

Good luck hunting with your old Darne.

Best,
Ted

Salut,

Dernière mouture brevetée en 1928.
Ce système de déverrouillage apparait pour la première fois sur le catalogue Darne de 1928.
Il serait étonnant que ton fusil ait été fabriqué avant cette date. La période 1928 / 1940 est certainement plus plausible.

Salut,

Ces deux armes sont intéressantes pour leur ancienneté.
Le R11 doit dater de la période 1902 / 1907.
Le V19 est un peu plus plus récent, vers 1910. A confirmer par des photos.

Merci FAB - Translation:

Dernière mouture brevetée en 1928.
Ce système de déverrouillage apparait pour la première fois sur le catalogue Darne de 1928.
Il serait étonnant que ton fusil ait été fabriqué avant cette date. La période 1928 / 1940 est certainement plus plausible.


The last "mouture"* was patented in 1928.
This unlocking system appears for the first time in the Darne 1928 catalog.
It would be astonishing if your gun were made before that date. The period 1928-1940 is certainly more plausible.

*I don't know this French gun term "mouture" - it must be related to that action unlocking system. It will be added to the dictionary once I figure it out. Ted what might this refer to?

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Ces deux armes sont intéressantes pour leur ancienneté.
Le R11 doit dater de la période 1902 / 1907.
Le V19 est un peu plus plus récent, vers 1910. A confirmer par des photos.

These two guns are interesting because of their age
The R11 must date to the period 1902-1907
The V19 is a little more recent, around 1910. To be confirmed by some photos.

Interesting, I would have thought this gun was ~20 years younger! No doubt it will get more use with the open chokes.

Gene,
I’m not the French language expert, but, I believe it refers to the latest draft or version. There were several V patents and some of them were produced concurrently. Fabs term makes sense when considered in that light. I think it can also refer to grinding, as in a production setting.

I’ll put this caveat out out there again, for what seems like the millionth time-if that Darne was built for export, the chart means literally nothing. I am also a bit spooked by the U prefix not appearing anywhere else the serial number appears on the gun. Not that it detracts from the quality or beauty of this particular V20, but, that it leads to a question of why it might be misnumbered?
Lunch box gun, built many years after the markings went on the flats? A gun that had the barrels replaced?

I know of a few “fast ones” pulled by the last production team in regards to grades of old guns, but, I really don’t believe this was common practice at all through many years of production.

Best,
Ted

Ted, I like the idea that "mouture" refers to "version." I'll ask wife tomorrow...but this has to be done delicately...maybe hot chocolate or something..because she's fed up with my SxS shotguns.

I also noted that the "U" didn't seem to match the other stamps. Saint-Etienne is a never ending source of investigation. Here is where we need Wildcattle back.

Pour FAB: Pourriez-vous s'il vous plaît expliquer le terme français "mouture". Nous sommes confus.

Salut Argo,

Pas très malin de ma part d'avoir utilisé ce mot sur ce forum.
Effectivement, on peut remplacer le mot "mouture" par le mot "version".
En espérant avoir posté avant ton réveil. 😁

So sorry gents, once again my memory fails me. There is a 'U' stamp on the action flat.

I find Darne actions so interesting, unfortunately I need to limit my gun acquisition disease.

They are tempting.

A small 16 or 20 bore should fit into anybody's gun rack. My problem is not want or even money but I am lacking a real need. No quail tends to hurt my real or potential needs. Quail ought to make a comeback to help me out in my hour of need. Heck I’d be happy to just hear a quail calling every evening just before lights out like I did in my youth.

None of this is about “need”. I believe it was our own Chuck, who opined that once you have driven past a KFC, there is no legitimate reason to continue on to a bird hunting expedition.

I should really watch for a 16 gauge Darne. I have a 28, a 20, and a 12 at the moment, but, have never owned a 16 gauge Darne.

Need. Are you kidding me?

Best,
Ted