First time. Last time shooting clay pigeons one time gun would not open. Appears the firing pin(hammer or hammers ) are not retracting. Happened once and then again when I got home and tried to open to clean the gun. If I remove the forend the barrels will tilt clearing the pins. Any ideas on what is happening? And yes it is CLEAN.

You say it’s CLEAN….but is it clean internally? When’s the last time the gun had a full strip and clean?? Usually the cause of firing pin drag are elongated and misshaped (mushroomed) firing pins/strikers. Happens over time. Might simply be a need for a full strip & clean and lightly reshaping the tips of the pins/strikers…..or if they’re really worn and past the point of a simple reshape…having the strikers welded up and re-shaped.

The relationship between the cocking slide and the legs on the hammers is critical on a Fox. I would look at that first. When the hammers are dropped, they should just barely clear the slide.

Change ammo or primers.

You using steel head cases?

Mike

I have sent you a PM about this common problem on Fox guns that has been happening for a 100 years. Notwithstanding this problem Fox guns are of excellent design and function.

The firing pin and hammer is all one piece in the AHFox
The hammer/firing pin can hangup in the fired case if the hammer is not retracting (cocking) fast enough as the bbls are opened.
It's a timing problem.

The quick fix is usually to change ammo to one with a primer that is 'harder' so the firing pin doesn't bury itself as deep into it upon striking the primer.
It doesn't have as far to be pulled back out so you don't feel the drag though there is still some.
Remington primers are often noted to be ones that will cure the problem. Cheddites too by some.

The real problem of timing can be fixed. The hammer(s) have to be started on their rotation back to a cocked position as soon as the motion of the bbls is started downward.
The sliding 'cocking foot' on the center of the bbl lug is often the cause. Sloppy fit in it's T slot and/or excess clearance betw it and the extensions of the hammers it contacts to cock them back.


A simple test to see if the timing is off:

Unload the gun!!

With the hammers DOWN/FIRED, the gun closed, hold it horizontal up in front of you.
Now holding the forend to support the bbls w/one hand, unlatch the top lever w/the other hand but don't pull the bbls down.
Holding the gun closed with the top lever unlatched,,now very slowly let the weight of the bbl's alone drop the the bbl/forend assembly open.

It will open a short distance and then come to a stop/resistance.

That amt that the bbls open when coming to that stop/resistance point is the wear in the cocking linkage.
It can be almost nothing (a good thing) to opening quite a distance, not a good thing

The bbl's are opening that far before the hammer(s) are being picked up by the linkage (cocking foot) and begin to be rotated back.
Until that moment, the firing pin/hammer(s) are still down hard with full released mainspring pressure on the fired case.
The pin(s) are buried in the primer of the fired shell under mainspring tension. At the same time you are trying to rotate the bbl open w/that empty shell.

Hard opening,,doubly hard when both bbls are fired.

You can do the above test with either bbl fired, or both at the same time. Doing one at a time will show if one has move 'slack' in the mechanism than the other.

great explanation

Excellent explanation.

Mind really running slow today. I forgot to mention that this happened with the gun empty (no shells) and the hammers cocked.

Extractor/ejector stuck?

I had this problem with my Fox and found that my resizing die on my reloader had moved up and was not sizing down to the rim. Adjusted and fixed. If you are using factory ammo try different shells.

Reminds me of the day pheasant hunting with my Dad and his best friend, Herman Steinke, about 1950. Dad shot his 12 gauge M21, which I know own and shoot- Mr. Steinke had a 12 gauge Fox double- I wouldn't have known the grade back then, at age 9-- but I recall all the engraving. Lots of pheasants and also quail that Nov. Saturday back then, and Mr. Steinke had shot himself out of shells-so Dad gave him a few Peters blue paper shells- and after firing both barrels at a large covey flush, his gun would not open easily. (he made a double on that covey rise however).. I have a 20 gauge Sterlingworth (Utica gun) but I have not yet experienced those problems with it-I bought it well used from a grouse hunter about 12 years ago, as I had hopes of our State getting a legal dove season-- Hope in the right hand, crap in the left-see which fills up first I guess. RWTF

So, due to the design of the hammers, that can't have anything to do with the 'firing pins not retracting' now can it?

Thanks bushveld and Kutter for your detailed response. The cocking slide does not appear to be the answer. I compared the 16 in question to my 12 and the 12 functions exactly as you described. The 12 stops with minimal movement and then requires pressure on the barrels to cock the gun. On the 16 in question the cocking slide is not loose, absolutely no evidence of wear, looks new. Cocking slide mates as described with minimal barrel movement, however further relaxing of the barrels begins the cocking process, barrels begin to drop which leads me to believe I have weak coil springs for the hammers. The next issue which started this thread, barrels not opening appears to be a separate issue. My thumb is blue in attempting to push the top lever to the absolute farthest right (stop). It appears as if the rotating locking barrel is not retracting enough to disengage from the barrel lug. What might be worn? With Pumkin Mountain apparently closed who has the Fox parts?

16 gauge Fox rotating bolt will not be easy to find---although the 12 and 16 locking bolts may be the same outside diameter, I doubt it. A Fox 12 gauge rotating locking bolt is approximately .685" in outside diameter. I have had to make a Fox rotating cocking slide in the past and it is difficult to machine the rear pivot inside the rotating locking bolt correctly to make the gun easy to open. Some times the top lever shaft will break and cause what you are seeing with your gun. I know that I have a 12 gauge Fox top lever in my Fox parts. I think I have some 12 Fox locking bolts in my old Fox "stuff" and I can send you one to try to make work if that is what you find is wrong--take the butt stock off and look at the top lever, the top lever extension and its spring/plunger to see what is wrong. Do you have a metal lathe?

Is your Fox an ejector gun?

Taking the stock off a Fox is not as simple as most.

Thanks, Kutter for explaining in detail what's happening.

And also, what's been mentioned, soft primers make it worse. Remington primers are harder and pretty much solved the problem with my early A12 Fox.

And it turns out that when the hammers are down in the fired position, I've measured the extension of the firing pin tips out from the standing breech with the barrels off. That distance is just about 0.060".

The same measurement on a 12 gauge Sterlingworth is about 0.050". That gun opens fine with Winchester and other soft primers.

Jolly

I have found proper Fox firing pin protrusion measurements to be the same as JB in the past. I was checking them to try to determine why I was getting light primer strikes on a particular brand of shells. The cause turned out to be in the shells themselves, not the guns.

Kutter, your detailed explanations and instructions are so well written and thought out that it makes me wonder if you have not been an instructor at some time. They are very much appreciated here.

bushveld, again thank you for your response. It is not an ejector, don't have metal lathe but that's not an issue. I'll strip it in a day or two and see if I can determine the problem. Again anyone out there, where are the Fox parts now?

Brian Dudley in NY will know about specific Fox parts. Also Jay Schachter at VFI Guns -Grand Rapids, MI.

The recommendation to take the Fox carefully apart, with a smith -is excellent advice.
One can learn from a good gunsmith. Sometimes a good internal cleaning will fix the problem as crud or even a bit of rust
can cause problems in the action.

This is particularly valuable, as I own three AH Fox shotguns -all built in the teens or early 1920s.

Fantastic explanation! I've got a Sterly and a Super. Just did the cocking test, and both begin the cocking phase of opening immediately. Both work flawlessly with snap caps also. The SW can be a bear to open with cheap ammo, the Super not so much. Gonna try some Remington, and I think we will be ok. Before your explanation of the testing procedure all I could do is wonder! Thank you so much!

McIntosh wrote about the issue of Fox guns becoming striker bound. From what I am able to decipher, that is not the problem with the OP’s gun, however.


Best,
Ted

In regard to the Fox parts that you may need I looked through what I had last night and there may be what you will need in them; and if so I will mail them to you as a freeby if you will pay the postage.

In further detail to what I stated earlier to you about the top lever shaft sometimes breaking : it usually breaks in one of the two threaded holes in the top lever shaft, so you can look for that. If you have not disassembled a Fox gun it is not difficult and there are only a couple of "watch outs". 1) watch for the coil spring loaded plunger that is in the bottom of the action to fall out when you are removing the bottom plate and the sears spring and 2) the safety shaft/pin through the butt stock. The coil spring loaded plunger is what holds the top lever open via a slot in the rotating locking bolt.

You do not need to remove the hammer pivot pin to remove the butt stock, only remove the sears and the pin.

bushveld I've sent you a message.