https://www.gunbroker.com/item/938950728

i have little experience with belgian guns, and wonder about this one....saw it this morning and finally accessed the document re: date codes (i'm in new mexico, away from my research materials) and sent seller a message opining that proof occurred in 1938. the condition appears awfully nice for it to be off the face....or else someone did a very nice restoration and didn't bother with that aspect.

your insights are solicited.

best regards,

tom

Nice gun acier cockerill is steel barrels I would ask for barrel wall thickness and his return policy

There are a lot of guys on here who can tell you about proofs ECT.

I was just researching that one great deal! Found half dozen ML hammer guns at different levels of engraving. Looks like they were proud of their Grand Prze win at 1906 Milan expo with that action. This gun dates 1928 (g proof date) has cannons Declour barrels and would be quite a deal for under a grand. Seller says hinge is loose but tight? Odd. It’s been restored. I will be bidding also but good eye my friend.

typical belgian smokeless proofs...

rare late hammergun...looks late 1930's...

bet argo can be more precise...

wheather redone or not, who cares, it is a lovely old gun...

after careful looking at the lower case script letters, i came to believe the letter is not the "g", but rather the "q" indicating 1938....give it a good scrutinizing.

tom

seller provides no info re bore condish...

without opportunity to inspect gun and return, if found defective..this one is a crap shoot...

Nice thing about Belgium guns I have dealt with they have the bore and choke size marked on the barrels, if they are nitro proofed and still within couple thousands of that I feel pretty darn good about them. My Belgium double 16s are all marked .669-.670 but in mm. Now Fn brownings are all over the place on original bore size. This one was original 70mm chamber it’s probably beefy. Hope nobody got out the brake hones.

Good one EDD

So much to learn from Belgian marks



I agree with Jt the lettre annale is a lower case 'g' rather than a 'q' so 1928 DOM
Cornell Pubs has a 1932 Manufacture Liegeoise catalog reprint which might show the grade
https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=3580

The barrel tubes were made by Canons Delcour S.A. (the crown over D) using Cockerill steel. ML used the ACM in a circle for Acier Cockerill Manufacture Liégeoise
At the time of proof the barrels weighed 1.281 Kg = 2.82# which is very light for 28" barrels. If they now weight > 3% less they are considered out of proof
The R bore is 17.0 mm = .669" with choke 16.9 mm = .665"
L 17.1 mm = .673" with choke 16.8 = .661
So .004" R and .012" L = Sk 1 and Sk 2

2 3/4" chambers and of course Nitro proved (the stylized lion over P.V.)

If you get the gun let us know the weight - should be a wonderful skeet (with light loads) and quail gun! It may have spent time on a Southern quail plantation?

ed shared his business model on the other thread "the foundation of human relations is manipulation of others..." or "Do to others what's best for me and what I think I can get away with."
A motto anyone can be proud of.

Too, there were strict rules on the steel stamps from the steel manufacturer to the mechanic who would convert the bar stock into a rough bored tube or completed tube. Not sure yet of the agreement or if there was penalty, but the mechanic was to apply specific text or characters to distinguish one type tube steel from another.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

[quote=

ed shared his business model on the other thread "the foundation of human relations is manipulation of others..." or "Do to others what's best for me and what I think I can get away with."
A motto anyone can be proud of.[/quote]

i have had EDD on ignore since he thought it would be cute to post a link into my personal email account here on the board. when i messaged dave weber and asked that he delete that link, i also asked that he banish EDD from the site (again)....he promptly deleted the link but chose to leave clever EDD to troll and trash as he sees fit. i, for one, would prefer that EDD not track mud and bulls**t onto my threads...but EDD obviously sees himself a wit, so his crap and drivel will obviously continue.

best regards (but not to EDD)

tom

EDD is truly a turd in the punch bowl

doc drew, you are prechin nonsense now...

and m3, i know nothing of what you speak...

Same gun? The SN and barrel flats are not shown
https://www.gunsamerica.com/9139617...-GRAND-PRIZE-1906-PRESENTATION-PRIZE.htm

Another sold in UK with 2 1/2" chambers
https://zh-cn.facebook.com/countrywaygunshop/posts/2353861118199057

As Jt said a prize winner at the Exposition Internationale de Milan, 1906
https://archive.org/details/expositionintern00drey

How can a gun with 4 bolts and a dolls head possibly be off face?

Here is an answer from the Liege-Univers
..
This is ML model 6618 according the rib extension shown.
Here are photos of catalogue pages.
The a.m. ML catalogue sourced ex Cornell does not include it.
...
Old catalogue front page
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/70037
Model 6618 catalogue page
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/70038
.....
Photo of the ML top model ex later catalogue
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/70039
.....
This has been their best of a LIEGE-BEST haregun, with its opulent engraving,
typical 3/4 choke in both barrels, unsurpassable by any other maker.
A London auctionhouse sold a pair of those in the 52xxx nr range end of the
1990`s to US.
For anyone addicted to a London gun , these open bored London guns
are wonderful birdguns, but at a Central European hare shoot a nuisance
and "Aasjägerei".
If you come across such a ML gun buy it.
....
It is Gun-Off-Topic , but at present Times-ON-Topic.
The first Westerner who wanted to implant western values of -Liberty,Egalite,Fraternite-
into Eastern Europe has been this French-man from Korsica.
A great boulevard in Paris is named after his endeavour as "Avenue de la Grande Armee".
He left for his campaign versus POCCIJA with an ammassed army/headcount of 700.000.
A barrel of Chambertin accompanied him on his long trip towards the east.
He successfully entered MOSKWA, but the Moscovites burned down the town.
For the unsheltered French not used to - 20 C not a warm wellcome, so they returned.
A Petite-Armee of 20000 returned , what has happened to the 680000.
Simple answer.
"Verscharrt in den kalten weiten Steppen Osteuropas"
Amen
F. N.

Well, I missed quite a buy by $5. Still happy. On the looseness issue, I suspect the cause may be side to side play between the lug and frame. I have had a couple of Sterlingworths and a Parker GH that did this to a small degree. The small excess side clearance will let the barrels rotate very slightly side to side when open but not when constrained in the closed position. It could of course have a little play in the pin that is being held tight by the crossbolt. If so, I will simply put a tiny shim in the hook to prevent future wear on the crossbolt or rib extension. At this price point, I think it is entirely justified and is reversible in the future. The one thing I plan on doing is take a shot at refinishing the stock. The restoration looks quite good in the pictures except that the finish looks a little simple. Hopefully an immersion strip, and a nice fill and oil finish may do the trick. Can't wait to see it in the flesh.

If you recieve any photos, I would appreciate seeing them.

Photos added/edited in original post
Cheers
F.N.

Thank you Felix!

I owned a ML hammer gun some years back. The venerable John Mann sold it to me at a really nice price because I think he felt sorry for my young broke a$$.😂. God bless him.
The gun was exactly as pictured in the above catalog. It was a 16 bore. It wasn’t an extremely high quality gun, more of a fancy blue collar kinda of piece. Decently made, it was simple but not crude and ML paid someone at their ginormous factory to polish the locks, etc.
Most all ML’s I’ve seen and handled over the years have been about the same. Well made Belgian guns that absolutely weren’t in the JABC category.

Quick update: Recieved the gun yesterday. While not an expensive gun, it looks even better than the pictures in the ad showed.

I measured everything and the bores were both within 2/1000(+) of the stampings on the flats. I presume they are within the gap between two measureing plugs. Weight of the barrels are within an ounce of the stamp. Total weight was 6# 1/2oz. Surprisingly, the chokes measure out at .036" and .040"; nowhere near the proof stamp and hard to add metal. Don't really know how this could be. No signs of any polishing on the barrels or under the CC. Engraving is super sharp. Condition of the gun for 90 some years is unbelievable.

The loose vs off face questions were answered. The gun has a very slight loose feel when closed (not open) so not side to side wriggle. The movement is so slight you can feel it but not see it. Held up to a strong light, I could see no gaps as I twisted and moved it. I tried a .001 shim under the flats and then in front of the breech face, and all movement disappeared. When I tried a .002 shim in either location, the action wouldn't lock. This is a maddening thing I have seen a few times. Not really worth the cost or effort to fix. I have seen this looseness removed before by a piece of stainless ship stock Loctited into the hook. Reversible and stops the irritation.

I want to try thisas a hammer uppland gun.I am going to try it first with some Polywad Spreaders I have to see how I shoot it. I may have the barrel chokes reamed out to the proof dimensions. Wouldn't that be a hoot? Ream the chokes to restore it to original!

If it ain't a masterpiece, shim it and shoot it.

Very nice little gun. Shim open chokes to what you want and shoot the snot out of it!

Extremely nice at that price point, I found other 12 gauge guns same model from 2k-3k and looked worse. Happy someone here got the thing. I love 16ga guns but never had a hammer gun and doubt I would actually hunt one. Congratulations!

enjoy it in good health.

best regards,

tom

Just a note. I looked at these and they are not the same gun; you can see the serial # on the trigger bow of the first one, and the CC's are pretty much gon.

I think it is funny that everyone selling one thinks they have a prize from an auto race in 1906. The term Grand Prix has been so connected to Formula 1 that people think it means the race. The translation general comes out something like "Formula One Grand Prize of Monaco" etc but the term Gran Prix is generally not translated. The gun I bought is dated to 1929 or so. Little late to finish the prize and award it.

The gun ws not awarded as a prize, but was awarded a prize for industrial design at the Milan Exposition. They apparently labelled this model like that for as long as they made it after the exposition.

Also noted in a catalog from that period that the gun was only available "double full choked", which is consistent with the barrels and not the proof marks.

About time for one of them granpappy stories...