I keep buying weird stuff that ends up puzzling me.
I have had a few German hammer drillings, but never kept any of them permanently. I started watching an old Sauer Cape gun on GB a while back, but I thought it was overpriced. However, I eventually bought it because it
was in tremendous condition and the ad said they thought it was a 16 ga/577 Snider. They gave rough chamber and throat dimensions and it seemed close to a Snider chamber, but the groove and land numbers seemed large. This is often true for the military carbines so I didn't think much about it.

When I got the gun, I dropped in a Snider cartridge, and it went past the extractor and deeper into the chamber. Hmmm. I measured and checked and tried, and finally realized it had a 20 gauge shotgun chamber, for a 2" shell,

I had to extrapolate the numbers, but my best guess is that the gun was built in 1875-76. The gun is incredible, particularly the barrels. They look to be almost unfired. The 16 gauge barrel (2-1/2") measures right on spec and looks perfect. The rifled barrel has absolutely no erosion, no scratches, no pits and the rifling and grooves are perfectly clean, straight and shiny to the bottom of the grooves. turns out the rifled barrel is (I suspect) a 20 gauge brass 2" cartridge. The barrel has 8 grooves ( 1:100 twist or so) with a bore of a 20 gauge and grooves of a diameter to match a brass 20 gauge shell I.D. (I chamber cast the throat and barrel).

I'm no expert, but I have never seen anything like this exactly. The gun has permanent adjustable sights. That would eliminate the intent to scatter the shot for wingshooting. It would also seem to elminate a Paradox type load, since the entire barrel is rifled. It is set up like a true cape gun, except that the rifle barrel is a shotgun. All the shotgun answers are discounted by the two different bore sizes and the permanent sights. It is not a true ball and shot gun, since it has dedicated rifle sights. I would say it is a combination gun with a shotgun and a bore rifle, but the barrel doesn't seem to be thick enough to push into the bore rifle category, although it is thicker walled than the shotgun size due to the barrels being the same contour outside.

Anyone know the proper name for this setup? Anyone seen one before? I am at a loss on this. Wouldn't be the first time.

AGS, I always thought that a "Cape gun" was any two barreled gun with one barrel smooth and the one rifled, regardless of the bore sizes. The rifled barrel with the slow100 twist would probably shoot best with a round ball. I looked your gun up on GB and it does look like a fine piece, Don't know how I missed it or it might have been mine!!!! LK

Without any fotos, I would hazard a guess is was something in the 12.7mmX?? range or some Lancaster round, being a Bohemian term. What is the length of the rifled chamber?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The chamber cast shows it to be a 20 gauge shotgun with a 2" length. I confirmed this with a brass 2-1/4" shell which wouldn't seat all the way. A 2-1/2" Cheddite would not either, but cut to 2" it seated perfectly. At the throat and just past, the bore is around .615 and the grooves are around .635. I presumed it was made for a .635-.640 ball in a brass case, given the manufacture date. A plastic or paper shell (which I also tried and measured) would not have the ID to hold a ball large enough to fill the barrel. This would be 16mm +. My surmise is that they took a 20 gauge barrel made to the same OD as the 16, then bored and chambered it for a cylinder bore 20 gauge and rifled it to a depth of .010 or so per groove.

When I get some balls close to the right size, I my plan is to upset a ball into the grooves, knock it out and measure it.

I had never seen a setup exactly like it but find it interesting. The result is very close to what I thought I was getting (16/.577) but more interesting. This was only four years after the 577 Snider was superceded by the 577/450, but BSA and others were still making sporting guns in that caliber. I thought maybe Sauer was making these for the German market. I would have thought they would have made a 20 gauge with a reduced bore for ease of loading or the more obvious of simple a 16 bore in both with shallow rifling. Maybe from a manufacturing standpoint this was the best option but it seems like a unique piece.

The pictures in the add don't really describe how pristine the gun is.The barrels blueing looks a little suspect, but the rest looks absolutely original and the barrels litterally like a new gun. There is a small splinter gone off the thin edge of the forearm and a tiny crack on the inside of the forearm behind the wedge that I have superglued and clamped to stabilize, and that's all I can find.

I just can't remember for the moment, but hopefully Jani will stop by in a bit to ID the 20 bore X 2"......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

During the same period, Sauer turned out Büchsflinte in 16-65X11mm Mauser.....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0110352109431&Number=251424&an=0&page=0

Narrowing down the options.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

It seems this Buechsflinte was chambered for a 20ga x50mm (about 2") ball cartridge. Such cartridge cases were available in various gauges and lengths, for loading by a local Gunshop or maybe the guns owner. I think old catalogs showed these cases under the "Express" heading. The confusion is exacerbated by the gun having been made before the first proof law was in effect. If it had been proofed, the markings would show whether a barrel was proofed for shot (crown S) or a single projectile (bullet) (crown G).
Mike

Indeed Ford, 50mm Express...... That puts us on the proper path. I will search for an ammo list......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
It wouldn't be listed as 50mm Express, instead it would be 20 bore x 50mm. The 50mm is the case length. Deutsch Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz Karlsruhe, Baden had 20 bore Jagd-Patronen-Hulsen in 75mm 63mm and 40mm lengths. Keep in mind, I didn't verify the dimensions of the chamber and we often see old chambers that are longer than the case, but w/o a separate throat. In their catalog only cases up to 577 (which is smaller than 20bore), listed as Express.
Mike

I suspect the answer may be a 20 bore x 40mm or 50mm. I shortened a 20 gauge Cheddite case to 2" (50 mm) and it fit right against the throat/lands. I took a few .610 pure lead balls and carefully flattened them in a smooth vise until they measured .642. I found a Cowboy Action Load for 20 gauge that pushed 3/4 oz of shot to 1000 fps at around 6000 psi. Since the balls weighed 330 gr (almost exactly 3/4 oz) I loaded 5 rounds with a powder charge reduced 1 grain, used the base of a BP 20 gauge wad as a gas seal and pressed in a resized and lubed ball. I had forced a lubed ball through the bore and it engraved and passed through easily. I measured the ball I pushed through and the groove diameter was .645-.646. I fired two of these offhand at a makeshift target at 25 yds and they functioned well, the recoil is light and they shot to point of aim. This may well have been a 40 mm cartridge, because even with black powder and conventional wadding, the case is ridiculously long at either 2" or 2-1/4". I just ordered some balls cast .648 and some 18 gauge wads which fit the MagTech brass. I will shorten the brass to something between 40 and 50 mm and use appropriate cushion wads to seat the ball flush with the case mouth. I think it will work perfectly.

I did notice in trying the gun that there appears to be be barrel bands around the breech, along with Sauer Suhl, both in Platinum or silver. Also, these barrels ar steel, which I think is pretty early for those.

Yes steel & the term >>Guß-Stahl<< should be stamped on them somewhere.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I looked into the 1904 DWM catalog and I would call it Kugelpatrone Kal. 20; DWM case 67 (40.40 mm long).

(Kugelpatrone = Ball cartridge)

Cheers,
Jani

Thanks Jani for popping and and too for providing me the term for which I was seraching: Lankaster Kugelpatrone Kalibre 20.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Turd with a stock ?

Not even in German

It is actually inlayed in Platinum along with a ring on the breech of the barrels.

Here's a quiz:

20.89%

0.33%

Somebody with a grade school diploma explain this to him. Maybe he will wait until he has something of any value or interest to say before typing.

I am highly confident that the bar stock for making the tubes was sourced from Guß-Stahl-Fabrik Carl Berger & Compagnie.

Axel E. on Berger & Colt Peacemaker steel...... - GußStahl:

>>The Gusstahlfabrik (cast steel factory) Carl Berger&Co, later Gusstahlwerk Witten AG, then led by Carl's son Louis Constans Berger, in the 1860s pioneered the use of barrel steel. Besides providing the steel for the Dreyse needlerifles of the Franco-German war of 1870-71, they exported lots of barrel steel to the USA in the early 1870s. Among these exports were large amounts of special-order, large diameter round stock. Their main American customer was Colt in Hartford. So your "all American" Colt Peacemaker most likely has a barrel and cylinder made of Witten steel!<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...ords=Monopole&Search=true#Post212298

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Just an update. The 20 bore by 40 mm is almost certainly correct. I had measured as best I could and got a measurement of 2" to the start of the rifling. I cut down some 2-1/2" Cheddite hulls to 2" and they worked great. I even fired three of them. However, when I tried today with 20 gauge brass shells, the gun wouldn't lock up. I had to cut the brass shells off to about 1.85 inches to get a completely smooth closing action. The 40 mm would be around 1.585" and would allow the ball to patially protrude from the case mouth with a reasonalble BP load. I am going to shorten 10 or so to this length, load them with .646" pure lead balls at about 1100 and try for accuracy. The recoil of the 330 gr balls I tried ws very mild.

Thanks for the help. I new someone here would be able to dig up the answer.