Does the Ithaca Lewis use v springs or coil springs?

???

betcha leaf...

From the Minier model on, the Ithaca doubles used coil springs in order to achieve the fastest lock time. Although not everyone realizes it now, in the day, Ithaca was in contention for the crown as the ultimate American smoothbore, in the same exalted league as the only Yankee sidelock, LC Smith.

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst

well, the miner came after thu lewis... so duz dat mean duh lewis gottin der leafin typin springin schultz?

or is ah simple yes or no not possible from your complex german mind?

geez, but its amazing how sum people make the simple so complicated...

Crass & Lewis lock



I don't have a Minier cut-away but as said a coil spring was used

Flues coil spring



NID coil spring

coil springs are more reliable...but they do not have the elegance of leaf springs...

Just to fill the void, here is the Minier Model --

great reference material...thanks to doc drew and researcher for sharing their knowledge with us here...

if anyone has a similar cut away image for ah fox guns, please do post it here...

Thank you for your replies. I am asking because I have acquired a Lewis gun, identified by the receiver bolsters added on the Lewis frame from the Crass model, serial number 101307. This puts the gun squarely in the Lewis production period. This gun uses coil springs to drive the hammers. Curious? Is this topic covered in Snyder's book?

What happened to the Southern Redneck accent all of a sudden? I read previously your "Jovial" explanation of the "enhanced" posts, and I didn't buy it. To me it is a bigotted act, and as a Southern Redneck by birth I take offense from it.

I have bought around 20 shotguns on the internet in the last 6 months. I have seen several of "yors" which interested me, but didn't even consider contacting you due to your continuous obnoxous posts. You might want to consider that in the context of the business you continue to advertise on this board where a lot of your potential buyers participate.

ags: my dialects (plural) are a mix of where i have lived and what i have heard...the deep south, the nyc area and now southern nh...

please remember, the use of this forum is governed by the moderator and not you...

and as you dont like me nor find my posts of interest, then just simply ignore me...

The Minier model has coil springs and is detailed in my book. A Lewis model in mid range that has coil springs is something I can not explain. During the late Lewis range some Minier models can be found as they closed out the Lewis. I would like to see photos of your gun showing SN and the coil springs driving the hammers.
Very interesting!

Ithaca did a small run of “test” Miniers in 1905 during the Lewis era. Your serial number falls in 1904 but it is possible that you might have an earlier version.
Could you post pics?

Walt, I will get pics and post. I would love to get a copy of your book if I could find an affordable one. Every consider a reprint?

yes, a reprint would be a good thing...

Let's have a show of hands for a reprint of Walt's book.

This made my morning. "The only Yankee sidelock."

Offering you a gentile 'out'...maybe you meant...'the best known sidelock?'

In QUANTITY, Crescent and Folsom made more. Way more.

In QUALITY, Sneider and Baker's finest were at LEAST as good.

There are others, but that will get you started.

As a side note: Ithaca made some nice guns. Definitely solid, well built, reliable designs, with a small percentage being high grade and excellently done. But the fact remains, they sold more double guns pimping the name of an even more famous gun maker, than they did using their own.


NDG

as in lefever...

My apologies to all. Confusion over Ithaca model and serial number. Not a Lewis but an early Minier. The search for a rare Lewis to Minier continues.

I find the Crass and Flues to be the most appealing. Some of the engraving was tops, and the designs were sound...they just dont have the same sex appeal of other makes. The NID, while strong, has always stuck me as particularly inelegant.

Some of the trap guns are highly finished and lovely. They definitely found a niche there.

High grade guns were just such a small % of their overall production. Contrast that with Lefever, who made a large % of higher grade guns...certainly prior Dan's departure. The same can be said of Sneider over the entire life of the make - father, son and son. They saw themselves as competing with English guns. They made leaser finished guns only to pay the bills.

NDG

To my eye the earlier Ithaca hammerless doubles were rather ungainly in their profiles compared to an Ansley H. Fox, Lefever or Baker, but they had some lovely engraving in the higher grades. The later "bold" engraving styles, McGraw for Ithacas, Gough for A.H. Fox, etc. met a price point but are pretty unimpressive.

The Flues Model Ithaca was far from a "sound design" with all its frame cracking issues.

This notion concerning Ithaca Flues frame cracking, especially in 20 gauge guns, was discussed here once again several weeks ago. In spite of considerable hand-wringing about the alleged design flaw, nobody was able to demonstrate that any significant number of Flues frames have cracked. In addition, it appeared that the majority of those few that did crack were abused in some manner, such as firing excessively heavy loads, or doubling. If there is any proof showing that a significant number of Flues frames have cracked during normal use with reasonable loads, we have not seen it.

Of course, we keep hearing that E.M.Reilly had 300 gun-making employees.... But we still don't have any evidence of that either. I remain willing to be convinced, but simply saying things isn't going to do it. No arguments from me concerning the opinion that the Flues was not as good looking as some of the competition. However, there are worse looking guns, and a lot of crappy guns that really have worn out and self destructed due to poor design and poor materials. Flues shotguns simply aren't bad for a mass produced machine made gun. People who own and use them shouldn't be worried that their frames will crack under normal and proper use.

LetFly,
I have a fair accumulation of Ithaca examples. I have observed that as Ithaca made model changes they used existing model frames and incorporated the new model lockwork. In respect to the bolsters: They can be found on 3rd style Crass, almost all Lewis models, some Minier models and a scant few Flues. The lockwork is what defines the models, not the frames. I am still searching for a transition Crass/Lewis model. I have examples of Lewis framed Minier, and Minier frame Flues. There is also an odd example transition Minier/Flues with 4 pins.

Researcher + Keith,

I was not aware of prior threads discussing this, nor of either real, or suppossed, cracking issues with Flues. I also don't own one, but have dusted clays with two (both 12's) belonging to shooting friends on multiple occasions, and they have always struck me as well balanced and soundly reliable.

FWIW...those two have no cracks. Although "two" is clearly only a small sampling.

They seem like great guns...just...a little too Mary Ann for me. I prefer Ginger.

NDG

I should add, that if the cracking question were to turn toward L.C. Smith...it's a different matter entirely. That I can speak to firsthand, having owned, and known others who have, guns with cracks behind the plates.

Even if one asserts 'hot loads' as the culprit, you would have to explain away why other makes aren't affected in similar numbers.

Even so, I hesitate to call it a "design flaw," as some have said over the years. More, an unfortunate drawback. Lots of things we buy are susceptible to unintended wear affects.

They're still pretty guns that work. Made by New Yorkers!

It's hard to believe, given current regional politics, that up until a few decades ago, the vast majority of guns ever made in the U.S. came from Connecticut, New York, and too a lesser extent Massachusetts.

NDG

Here you go Nudge
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=609802

I am not an Ithaca collector. I do collect early, Damascus barreled American maker SxS, Parker, Remington, Lefever, Ithaca, Smith, etc. Mainly lower grades accustomed to the woodcock covers, and usually in need of rescue from abuse.

I came across this Ithaca Lewis two barrel set, 28", 32" with original case at a LGS and added it to my set. My understanding is that Ithaca added the bolsters to the late Crass and then Lewis models, not out of any design flaw or engineering concern for cracking but as an accommodation, perhaps marketing ploy, to the growing preference for smokeless powder shotshells. I do not know the fact of this. I do know I like the look these added to the frame.

Drew,

That's nuts! I thought we were talking abiut WOOD, because of wood/metal fit. Cracked frames?

How many of these have come to light?

Was Ithaca known to use some specifically different steel blend? And, has such a thing manifested in other models (earlier or NID)?


NDG

Ok, so now I read that whole thread. As was pointed out by others, anthing mechanical can be run too hard, and fail. And as was pointed out by another, hundreds of thousands of these were made.

Im not inferring an opinion here, Im genuinely curious what people think. That of...where do we draw the line at acceptible chance failure?

You do it in your car, on a plane...everytime you plug in a cheap device like a shaver or toaster. So, at what percentage do we say something is a failure?

It it 10 Flues in the whole bunch? One poster said something along the lines of, "we've all been hearing for decades about cracked Flues." Well...i shoot vintage doubles regularly, amongst a circle of friends and acquaintences who have far more experience than me...and Ive never heard this.

So...have people been hearing the same 4 tales for so long they dont realize it was only 4? Or 10 actual occurances?

Im not asserting this is an example, but I am ever wary of 'the telephone game.' The age of the internet has only amplified it.

Remember when all of a sudden every Chevy Blazer was going to blow up because the gas tank was between the frame and the body? How many times did that actually happen?

Let me phrase the pertinent question this way: If I were to own a 20 ga Flues, and only shoot loads of a pressure that is in spec for a gun of that age...should I be legitimately, rationally concerned, that the frame may fail?

NDG

Don't take my word for it... or anyone else's word either. Look it up. Do some Google searches for things like "Ithaca Flues cracked frame" etc.

That's what I did, and I really expected to find a bunch, considering how often it has been said here that these guns are prone to cracking... especially in the 20 gauge guns. What I learned was that this issue is completely overblown. There are a relative handful, considering the large number produced. When you do some digging, you find that the vast majority that cracked at the juncture of the standing breech and water table had been subject to forces far above what they were intended to handle. You will find some references to a guy named Greg Tag, who was supposedly collecting data on cracked Flues... But you won't find any actual numbers or details about cracked Flues guns he encountered. You will find statements from many guys who have heard all of the horror stories, but then they tell you that all of their Flues guns are alive and well.

You will learn that a few pictures of a few damaged guns that are repeatly posted over and over on various gun forums have created a bad reputation that is just not justified by facts or hard numbers. If a bunch of shooters load Model 94 Winchester rifles with high pressure magnum level loads, and their frames crack or stretch, should we believe the guns are poorly designed??? Of course not. It's just a silly overreaction to a virtually nonexistent problem. Some guys would be better off taking up knitting. But those knitting needles are pretty scary too.

Nudge,
I have pictures of cracked Flues frames. And also several other SxS makes, including a STERLINGWORTH.
I have pictures of blown damascus barrels, and also blown modern steel barrels.
The Flues is a sound design. Hard to know if those broken ones got fed a proper diet or were force fed 3" goose loads until they said uncle.
If you are shooting clays or chasing upland birds, a Flues is a fine choice.

John

a botched frame rehardening job combined with heavy loads could result in a cracked frame...

Bro. Nudge: A sample of 5 certainly does not establish statistical significance, but AFAIK this is the only analysis of U.S. maker’s frames anyone has done

c. 1890 Hunter Arms Fulton “Transition” L.C. Smith Hammerless and 1909 L.C. Smith No. 00 were both non-standard but similar to Bessemer resulphurized (very high sulphur) AISI 1109 low (.09% & .12%) carbon steel.
Plans & Specifications of the L.C. Smith Shotgun by William S. Brophy contains an undated but likely post-1913 Materials Specification chart indicating “AISI 1020 Carbon Steel” for the frame.

c. 1900 Remington Hammerless Model of 1900 was Bessemer rephosphorized resulphurized AISI 1211 low alloy low (.08%) carbon Steel

c. 1892 New Ithaca (Hammer) Gun was AISI 1015 carbon steel

c. 1927 Crescent Empire No. 60 was non-standard AISI 1015 carbon steel with low concentrations of nickel (.05%) and chromium (.08%)

c. 1929 Fox Sterlingworth was non-standard AISI 1020 with low concentrations of nickel (.07%) and chromium (.08%)

Possibly someone could check Walt's book and see if the Flues era frame composition is specified.

I don't know if frames were heat treated prior to the color case hardening process, or if that was considered as heat treatment. If improperly done, heat treatment can decrease ductility and increase brittleness of low alloy steel.

Color case hardening is a hardening process so the receiver wouldn't have been hardened before the coloring process.

Lots of information regarding case coloring with help from Mike Hunter and SDH
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=572094

Decent overview of both color case and heat treating
https://uplandguncompany.com/color-case-hardening-and-heat-treating/

Yes, color case (surface) hardening is a form of heat treating, but not necessarily heat treating to increase strength of the forged action (as in rifle receivers).

I looked at several sources with descriptions of the Hunter Arms factory, all of which mentioned "large ovens for case hardening, bluing and annealing".

post factory color case hardening is a process where creating case colors is a goal...if a high heat process is utilized, those colors can be a by product of the rehardening process...sometimes a cracked frame can also be a by product of a reheat treating process...and then there are the efforts to straighten warped re heat treated frames, which may also result in cracked frames...also, if a reharden frame is not correctly tempered, it could be as brittle as glass, and may crack under the stress of shooting, especially with mag loads...

Have been looking but all I've found is 2 "guys on the internet" who stated that shotgun frames are not heat treated (understanding again that color case coloring is a form of heat treatment).
Hopefully a gunsmith will provide a definitive statement and thanks.

the best explanation i have found, is included in tony tredwell's fine book...

ttps://www.lulu.com/shop/tony-treadwell/vintage-english-shotguns-and-their-restoration/hardcover/product-20115603.html?page=1&pageSize=4

and then larry potterfield's video is helpful,as well...

and then there are low heat chemical processes, which produce simulated colors, without the risk of damaging the frame...

Found this in The Baker Gun Quarterly, November 1904, “A General Description of the Baker Gun”. This might explain why the frames were not heat treated.
Frames – All our frames are forged from the best selected steel in our own factory, under hammers of 1,000 to 1,200 pounds weight, thoroughly refining the metal and insuring freedom from imperfections. They are accurately cut by machinery, fitted, polished and thoroughly ease-hardened, which produces fine colors and a hard wearing outside surface, while the texture of the inner portions remains tough and sufficiently elastic to withstand hard strain and shock.

It also appears that frame steels had a carbon content < .25% so could not be through hardened.

AISI 8620 (C .18 - .23%) is a chromium, molybdenum, nickel alloy steel often used for modern shotgun frames, and is easily carburized and machined when annealed.

This continues to be an interesting convo. I will admit, I dont know Jack or Jill about steel composition, but it's interesting reading.

I guess I still want to go back to my last rhetorical question, which Keith already took the time to address.

"If one shoots in-spec loads, doesn't have an obstruction, cleans and cares for their 20ga Flues...should they have a rational belief that their gun has any higher possibility of failure than any other make/design of that day shooting the same ammo?"

If yes, the design is a failure. If no, then what are we harping on?

And possibly just as important...are there even ample enough examples of this, or other makes failing, for us to make a reasoned determination? Or separate out the human error (hot loads, obstrictions, etc) instances?

NDG

a 16 gauge flues was my go to grouse gun for many years...shot one ounce field loads...never a problem with that gun...


now, as for the grouse, they would often give me a problem...mostly it was about their flight patterns...ah lotta ziggin an zaggin...rarely would they fly straight...

Case color HARDENING is a process by which carbon is added to a low carbon steel by heating the steel to a specific temperature while surrounded by carbon. In the case of firearms that carbon was provided by bone and charcoal. The colors are produced by the gases released when the steel is quenched in water. It is not considered a heat treating process because the steel is not hardened throughout, but only a few thousanths of an inch deep, typically .005 to .010 deep. Hence the term CASE hardening meaning it is only the outside casing of the steel. Another method of case hardening was done by using CYANIDE. This method would produce the type of finish seen on Delgreco restorations of Parkers or the type found on tools made by Starrett. In any case , case hardening is a way of providing a very hard outside surface to low carbon steel while keeping the inner mass malleable. It is done everyday all over the world as a manufacturing process. However as in any het treating process anything can go wrong if the process uis not followed correctly and the material is allowed to get too hot these things occur all the time in the manufacturing world and the results could be broken parts if they are allowed to get out of the plant instead of scrapped after the error was discovered