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Posted By: PALUNC No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 01:03 PM
Damn Putin, it's all his fault!
All kidding aside, they just emailed out a flyer informing us about limited shotgun ammo for the upcoming Southern Side by Side event this year. I know I have had issues finding 2 1/2" shells, but have picked up a few boxes from some friends.
One friend I have said that lengthening the chambers ever so slightly to 2 5/8" will not make the gun out of proof.
Recommend or not recommend?
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 01:40 PM
If the gun has sufficient metal around the chamber there is no reason not to shoot 2 3/4” ammo in it as it is without changing anything. But if you’re uncomfortable with that send the gun out and have the forcing cones lengthened to 1” or 1 1/2”. Accomplishes almost the same thing as chamber lengthening without removing as much metal in a critical area. Not sure about the English proof law but not relevant on this side of ocean.
Posted By: Mills Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 02:01 PM
It is too bad, but should come as no surprise to anyone. Let's hope this shortage ends sometime soon
Posted By: KY Jon Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 02:02 PM
English proof laws don’t apply here. I’d shoot as is with low pressure 2 3/4” loads or reload.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by PALUNC
Damn Putin, it's all his fault!
All kidding aside, they just emailed out a flyer informing us about limited shotgun ammo for the upcoming Southern Side by Side event this year. I know I have had issues finding 2 1/2" shells, but have picked up a few boxes from some friends.
One friend I have said that lengthening the chambers ever so slightly to 2 5/8" will not make the gun out of proof.
Recommend or not recommend?

Is your friend a European trained gunsmith? Is he familiar with English and European proof, did he measure the walls, note the original proof dimensions, account for any honing of the bores, examine the chamber and forcing cone area with magnification, inspect for corrosion under the ribs? Is the gun in proof, now?

Asking for a friend.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: ed good Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 03:16 PM
as to lengthening chambers to 2 3/4... its about barrel wall thickness in front of chambers...generally speaking, if after lengthening chambers, you still have .090 in front of chambers, you should be ok for safe shooting with light loads...might as well have forcing cones done as well...

always seek professional help...

and be aware that any alteration to a gun may reduce its resale value...
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 03:54 PM
What Ted said.
ANY chamber/forcing cone alteration is considered by the British Proof House to take a gun out of proof.
Joe is correct regarding forcing cone lengthening; slightly increase volume within the chamber/cones = slightly decreased pressure. At least Bell's study (WITH 12G - we have NO data for 16 and 20g) suggested such.
I would not lengthen the chambers of a lightweight British game gun, of any gauge, and would do so with caution (and only by an expert) if a U.S. maker's 16 or 20g.
Posted By: SKB Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 04:09 PM
So as an interesting aside to this discussion I thought I would mention a lovely Purdey that recently came through the shop. In very high condition and built as a 2&1/2" gamegun that was ordered in the late 20's, never collected by the chap who ordered it and remained in stock until the the US Naval attaché was dispatched to London in the early '40's who then purchased the gun. The gun had its chambers lengthened to 2&5/8" and the proof marks defaced but the gun was NOT re-proofed. Purdey verified that the chambers had been lengthened before the sale. I do not believe a 2&5/8" proof length was ever a standard. While I generally agree that lengthening chambers on British guns takes them out of proof, I am a bit uncertain as to how 2&5/8" chambers fit in the equation.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 04:13 PM
Pretty sure altering even the choke takes a gun out of proof in Olde ‘Blighty, and pressure is way lower out there than in the chamber area.

Might be safe to alter a bore, but, you are going to nick gun value by altering anything in the bore on an English gun.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: SKB Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 04:18 PM
Certainly choke tubes take a gun out of proof, I do not believe opening chokes does but I could be wrong.
Posted By: ed good Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 05:21 PM
proof smoof...who cares...

we bin outta proof, so to speak, since 1776...

an watt doc drew says is correctomundo, as usual...
Posted By: Dan S. W. Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Might be safe to alter a bore, but, you are going to nick gun value by altering anything in the bore on an English gun.

Agreed.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 08:08 PM
Ever wonder why England established a proof house? Well, a zillion gunsmiths were turning out a zillion guns, many for export to Africa and other parts far away from England and many for domestic use. And many guns blew up in a shooter’s face with the first pull. Didn’t help the English reputation when they tried to trade guns for slaves and ivory, or for the local laborers, etcetera. And these makers were basically immune from liability which was more or,less an unknown concept. Who cared! So in an effort to save a valuable export item from extinction the government established a proof house in London in 1657, requiring all guns to undergo proofing. Guns still blew up after sale but maybe the proud owner could get a dozen or so shots before each pull became a game off roulette. And to varying degrees this problem continued for a couple centuries. So the proof houses became integral to the British arms trade and did raise the overall safety significantly. *

Fast forward to the American manufacture of arms. They were late comers to the business and while the individual makers turning out one longrifle at a time did the best they could since their market was local—close neighbors—and reputation was the only thing that kept them in business. But admittedly they often produced very inferior arms to the Indian trade. But by the time true arms factories (Colt first) began producing arms, liability laws were pretty well established. And also each arms manufacturer depended on a good reputation. As a result each manufacturer became their own proof house and subjected their guns to rigorous stress tests. So the same self regulation has successfully continued to this day, perhaps even more strenuous today than ever before since it’s increasingly easy to sue for inferior products.

*Much of this from writings of WW Greener.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 11:09 PM
Interesting reading regarding proof testing in the U.S.

April 20, 1895 Sporting Life
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/48142

July 27, 1895 Sporting Life
Call for Government Proof House for Nitro Powder Testing
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/48122
Posted By: Argo44 Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 11:21 PM
I was under the distinct impression from this line that shooting low-pressure 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambers was not only acceptable but a better alternative to screwing around with the forcing cones or chambers.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=609946&page=1

Based on this line, I scoured the internet and managed find a flat of Federal 12 ga 2 3/4"., 7 1/2 shot, 1 1/8 oz 1145 fps muzzle velocity shells (at $11 a box!). I plan to shoot them in both my Reilly Damascus hammer gun from 1897 and French 1925 boxlock. I'll let you know of any adverse consequences.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 11:44 PM
Gene,
In the case of the French gun, I think you will be fine. It’s hard to find a French double with thin walls. Pretty decent steel by that era, as well. I tell people you will quit before the gun does, they are usually very light, with high levels of proof.

The Damascus gun, well, I don’t know. Some of the Federal promo loads are loaded with pretty cheap powder, be nice to have a grasp of pressure instead of velocity, as the two aren’t always on the same plane, so to speak.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Argo44 Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/13/22 11:59 PM
Thanks Ted, I looked for the Federal for a reason...from this line which is pretty good I think:

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=400821

Thinking of: 12 gauge 2 3/4" Winchester AA extra lite shell, 1145 fps, 1 oz, 7 1/2 shot. If they can be found,
But reading the comments in the above line, Federal hulls produce dramatically lower pressure than Winchester.

I'll repost Dr. Drew's chart with the black splotches eliminated:

Many thanks to Bill Johnson for scanning and sending "Long Shells in Short Chambers", Sherman Bell with technical assistance from Tom Armbrust in "Finding Out for Myself", Part V, Double Gun Journal, Winter 2001

The test barrel was a "heavy" Krieger barrel with piezo-electric transducer at 1" from the breech and an Oehler velocity gauge 2 5/16" from the breech.
Tests were performed:
1. 2 1/2" chamber with a 7/16" forcing cone - "British chamber" (BC)
2. 2 1/2" chamber with a 1 1/4" forcing cone - "Modified British chamber" (MBC)
3. 2 3/4" chamber with a 1" forcing cone - "American Chamber" (AC)
Each load was tested in each chamber at least 5 times.
No significant change in velocity was noted between the 3 test chambers
It was not unusual to have 300-600 psi spread between shots

LOADS
1. 7/8 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1185 fps in the 2 3/4" chamber
2. 7/8 oz. in Estate plastic hull at 1206 fps
3. 1 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1137 fps
4. 1 1/8 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1120 fps
5. 1 oz. in Remington plastic hull at 1205 fps
6. 1 1/8 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1186 fps
7. 1 1/4 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1091 fps
8. 1 1/4 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1136 fps
9. 1 1/8 oz. with GOEX FFFg in Federal paper at 1184 fps
10. 1 1/8 oz. Bismuth in Federal plastic at 1091 fps
I only include the standard target or game loads that were tested

��..BC--...MBC-....AC-..Difference BC vs AC
1)..5725--...5905-..4834--..891 psi
2)..6225--...6065-..5009--..1216 psi
3)..5865--...5325-..5263--..602 psi-.."long cones do reduce pressure"
4)..5845--...5665-..5058--..787 psi
5)..7805--...7845-..7577--..228 psi
6).11,125-.11,045-10,787-..338 psi
7)..6892--...6805-..5953--..939 psi
8)..8765--...8545-..7870--..895 psi
9)..5405--...5265-..4603--..802 psi
10).6765--...6365-..6380--..385 psi
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/14/22 12:08 AM
Gene,
Ammunition from different eras or even different lot numbers, will produce different pressure. It is the constant bugaboo with ammunition loaded to SAAMI specs, and the manufacturers hide behind the MAX pressure SAAMI allows, telling folks it is safely under that, but, not by how much. They do this because it gives them freedom to use different powders and components without having to be concerned about anything but the MAX allowed. We have seen promo loads tested and reported on, right here, that were hitting 11,000 psi, not something most of us are interested in using. Dude with an autoloader he has never cleaned, yea, whatever.

They don’t care about you and your Damascus gun.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/14/22 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by Argo44
But reading the comments in the above line, Federal hulls produce dramatically lower pressure than Winchester.

Dangerous misconception.

The chart is taken out of context and does not reflect factory loads with the possible exception of #6.

All factory shells must be assumed to be 11,500 PSI until proven otherwise.

There is no, repeat NO, factory Federal shell that is unconditionally safe in a Damascus barrel.

Federal shells 'can' be loaded to lower pressure in handloads than some others due to their large internal volume and inefficiency with small powder charges. Loads are commonly (too commonly) published using Federal and other straight wall hulls with wads designed for tapered hulls. The 'low pressure' is due to the lousy gas seal of those wads in the large capacity hulls.
Posted By: old colonel Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/14/22 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by Shotgunjones
Originally Posted by Argo44
But reading the comments in the above line, Federal hulls produce dramatically lower pressure than Winchester.

Dangerous misconception.

The chart is taken out of context and does not reflect factory loads with the possible exception of #6.

All factory shells must be assumed to be 11,500 PSI until proven otherwise.

There is no, repeat NO, factory Federal shell that is unconditionally safe in a Damascus barrel.

Federal shells 'can' be loaded to lower pressure in handloads than some others due to their large internal volume and inefficiency with small powder charges. Loads are commonly (too commonly) published using Federal and other straight wall hulls with wads designed for tapered hulls. The 'low pressure' is due to the lousy gas seal of those wads in the large capacity hulls.

I concur with the recommendation to assume 11,500 PSI unless proven otherwise is a good rule of thumb.

That said Federal has some good hulls for low pressure reloading and with only a little effort low pressure reloads, even shortened hulls roll crimped, are a simple process to master.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/14/22 12:59 AM
Argo, this is what I posted on the topic you referenced.:

“ This subject of shooting 2 3/4” hulls in 2 1/2” chambers is a recurring question on this board. But perhaps it’s not bad to revisit it every once in a while. As mentioned above pressure tests shooting the longer hulls in short chambered guns did not raise pressures significantly, only 500 to 1,000 psi. That’s normally not a significant amount of pressure. And long ago, when American makers still cut chambers 2 5/8” they recommended using 2 3/4” shells. They wanted to hull to open part way into the forcing cone, believing the longer hull would provide a better gas seal than the shorter. Most of my doubles are damascus barreled with short chambers and I only shoot 2 3/4” in all of them. Never a problem. If my 2 3/4” hull mouths are not frayed after firing I am comfortable that the hull mouth remained in the forcing cone and is safe.

However, one word of extreme caution: regardless of hull length be sure the pressures, velocities, and payloads are within the design limits the gun was made for.”
Posted By: KY Jon Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/14/22 02:27 AM
In my misguided youth I had a number of chambers altered to longer for ease of use. No longer. I will either load safe stuff or just not shoot them until I can use safe ammo as they were built for. I agree with your observations and conclusions.

Life was and shall be someday so much easier when you could easily buy powder and primers to reload low pressure loads, or buy them from RST. Just to load a reasonable number of low pressure loads I end up buying a ton of extra different powders which right now are very hard to obtain. I have trimmed all my Remington 20 hulls from 2 9/16 factory length, to 2 1/2" length and they load normally. That gives me a go to hull, for the 20, which is safe in all my guns given reasonable loads. There are a few very low low pressure loads for Remington 20 in the 6400-7700 psi and more that are fairly low pressure in the low 8,000 psi. And I have thousands of them to work with. So once I have figured out what I need to make, it is simply a matter of doing it.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/14/22 11:15 AM
Again, the published length of the factory load is not nearly as important as the pressure it generates to begin with. Much is made over a factory shell being 1/4" longer than the chamber length of older short-chambered doubleguns, but most of them aren't 2 3/4" in length when fired, anyway. Pick up some different brands of fired hulls next time you're at a range. Take them home and measure them. I've never found but one or two loads that opened to a full 2 3/4 inches.

I recently measured several different brands of fired hulls that are sold as 2 3/4", again. None measured that. Most were closer to 2 5/8".
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/14/22 12:59 PM
Stan makes an important point, and I always learn best with pictures wink
Some gun club dumpster diving > 10 years ago so today's shells need to be checked

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

It has been reported that 16g Fiocchi loads run short

HOWEVER, if the case mouth is feathered, the hull is too long in your gun
67 mm L; 65 mm R

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]
Posted By: eightbore Re: No RST at the Southern this year - 03/14/22 01:03 PM
I have never bought special components to load for short chamber or Damascus guns. I can't imagine that you could blow up a good 12 gauge Damascus gun by shooting 7/8 ounce loads at 1150 fps, with common Red Dot.
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