1894s I'm eyeballing on websites are variously described as having 2 1/2" or 2 3/4" chambers, while I have read that the common chamber length for this model was 2 5/8". What's the real story here? Is chamber length stamped on the barrel flats?

Another curious thing is that a number of the 2 3/4" guns are damascus. It seems to me that the fluid steel barrels would be more likely to have been bored with longer chambers.

It is very likely that the real story is "inexpert" chamber length measuring.

Yes, the Remington Hammerless Model of 1894 had 2 5/8" chambers, as did the Model 1889 hammergun and AFAIK Hammerless Model of 1900

1901 Model 1889 hammergun hang tag specified 3 Drams DuPont Smokeless Powder and 1 1/4 oz. No. 8 shot (511 pellets) in 2 5/8” U.M.C. “Smokeless” shells

A 1907 DEO Trap 12g Remington Hammerless hang tag specifies 3 Drams (22 gr.) “Infallible” with 1 1/4 oz. No. 8 “Standard Chilled Shot” in a 2 5/8” UMC Nitro Club shell

A 1908 hang tag for a 12g Remington 1900 KE Hammerless states that the gun was targeted with 24 grains (3 1/4 Dr. Eq.) of “Infallible” in a 2 5/8 inch U.M.C. “Nitro Club” shell with 1 1/4 ounce of #8 chilled shot.

Chamber length was not marked unless non-standard

An 1894 C grade with Etoile damascus



An 1894 DEO



And Remington made no distinction between Remington Steel, Ordnance Steel, or Damascus regarding the recommended loads; all "Guaranteed For Nitro Powder"

By and large the Remington Hammerless Doubles were chambered for 2 7/8-inch shells in 10-gauge, 2 5/8-inch shells in 12-gauge and 2 9/16-inch shells in 16-gauge. If a gun was ordered for longer shells the length was stamped on the bottom of the tube just forward of the barrel flat. I've never seen a 10- or 16-gauge so stamped. These are both 12-gauges.





Except for the very earliest guns, the surviving 12-gauge hang tags show the guns targeted with Union Metallic Cartridge Co. Load No. 8 (SMOKELESS, TRAP or ARROW shells) or X8 (NITRO CLUB shells), 3 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 24-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing 1 1/4 ounce of #8C from a 2 5/8-inch shell.



Now the fly in the ointment. These hang tags for late guns still show 2 5/8-inch shells.





But circa 1907 all of our North American ammunition companies, including Union Metallic Cartridge Co., quit putting 1 1/4-ounce 12-gauge loads in 2 5/8-inch shells. From then on one had to go to a 2 3/4-inch or longer shell for the 1 1/4-ounce loads.

Also, it is hard to say what may have been done to a chamber in the 112 or more years since these guns were made, and I wouldn't put too much faith in what many gun dealers state in their descriptions.

Thanks as usual all the information when could hope for on this forum.
So, examination of the barrel flats will provide evidence of factory 2 3/4" chambers. Does anyone have issue with shooting loads under 9000 LUP (PSI) in a damascus 1894 declared sound?

Dave: it the 2 3/4 marked gun a D grade? The pattern looks like "Legia P."

re: "declared sound" means the bore examined with a bore scope and with careful measurements of the wall thickness at the end of chamber, 3", 6", 9", 12" from the breech, 9" from the muzzle, the MWT measurement and location thereof, and those measurements documented in a written report; by someone with the interest, expertise and equipment to properly evaluate the barrels.
MWT alone is NOT an adequate evaluation.

It is 123247 a DE-Grade, 30-inch sold at the October 2017 Julia's Auction -- https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/52027-1-397/

Lock up appears to be a single bite and the rib extension, is that correct?

I shoot a circa 1907 1894 BE with Damascus with some regularity. I shoot 2 1/2” mostly with pressures under 8500 psi. Sometimes I’ll run a box of 2 3/4” shells through it with pressure down in the low 6000s so whatever pressure spike may occur, it’s still well under 8000 psi. Likely still under 7000 psi. Given the thickness of the barrels (don’t have the measurements handy but they are thick) I’m pretty comfortable. I suspect they would handle modern pressure just fine.

No one can tell you over the internet what ammunition may or may not be safe in a given gun.

My Father bought a high condition 1896 vintage AE-Grade 12-gauge, 30-inch, from Osborne & Uland in Seattle during WW-II. From then until he quit hunting after the 1988 season it was his favorite upland shotgun. It digested a lot of 2 3/4-inch Remington Express, Western Super-X, etc. as well as a lot of trap/dove loads. It shows the wear, but still looks fine in my gun safe.

FWIW -- The heaviest 12-gauge loads our North American ammunition companies offered during the time these guns were being made carried 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder, such as Infallible or Ballistite, pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot. According to some DuPont powder booklets from the 1920s and 30s the pressure of these loads exceeded SAAMI specs which came in during the mid-1920s.

The gun in question has a serial number 130456, does anyone have access to manufacturing dates for this model?

Thanks.

According to the serial number chronology Charles Semmer constructed from surviving shipping records for his book Remington Double Shotguns, 130456 would be a 1904 vintage gun. To date no surviving production records for Remington Hammerless Doubles have been found.

Thanks for the great help.

As long as we are talking Remington Hammerless Doubles, I'm beginning to have some questions on the Charles Semmer serial number chronology. He showed serial numbers up to 141194. In a lifetime of recording observed Remington doubles I've got a good spread from 100033 to 139928, then five Krupp barrel guns from 140667 to 140678. Anyone have any other guns in the 140xxx and 141xxx range?

I'm talking the A- to EEO-Grades in the 100000 serial number range. Not the K- to KED-Grades in the 300000 range and the handful of Specials in the 400000 range

Researcher,

Per your observed serials question, no.

My observed range isn't as good as yours... #100,154 - #139,146, including 21 DE's and 20 EE's. I recall a post by a member on the PGCA forum a while back who asserted that shortly before his passing, Semmer had noted a total of 41 DE's and 44 EE's. Not sure how that compares to what he'd seen at the time he wrote the book.

I have never seen a "Special."

NDG

FWIW my count is at 32 D-quality and 24 E-quality. If I count the Krupp barrel guns in the 1406xx range as D-quality there could be a couple more.

I measured one with Bernard barrels today at 2 3/4" to the bottom of the rim recess and was .095" at the juncture of the chamber and the cone. Wall thickness was very adequate at 9" and at 15".

Thanks for posting that information Dean. Assuming the gun was a 12g, the end-of-the-chamber wall thickness is a bit surprising. How long were the forcing cones? I've measured a few vintage doubles with lengthened cones and it appears that frequently the chamber gets lengthened (as part of the cone lengthening alone) slightly. I have a Smith with lengthened cones that now has 3 1/4" chambers
The ONE damascus 12g Remington 1894 I've measured had 2 5/8" chambers, about 3/4" cones and end-of-chamber wall thicknesses of .107". 9" from breech was .058".

Drew, it is a 12 gauge and the cone was more or less a “stepped” affair like we often see on early guns made to shoot brass shells. I think it was only about .006” or so.

No, Remington chambers aren't stepped. I had one Parker 10ga lifter with 2 5/8" chambers that was stepped. Back in the day Damascus barrels were considered stronger than steel barrels that were butt welded from breech to muzzle. Remington also use to advertise all their shotguns were proof tested with nitro powders to be safe, and this meant Damascus barrels. I have at this time a 73, 82, 89, and six 94s. I have never measured, or worried about chamber lengths. All of them are Damascus except three of the 94 F grade Trap guns. They all get shot with 2 3/4" shells with no problems. And no, unlike Drew, none of them have been checked by a gunsmith or barrel walls measured. I pretty much do my own gun smithing [ except redoing bluing or Damascus barrels ] so feel confident in judging guns.

Well I have the gun in hand (model 1894 BE) and based upon my observations found it in good condition overall, bores free of pitting, mechanically in order, with these qualifications:

- chambers lengthened to 2.75" forcing cones about .75" total length

- light scattered pitting on outside of barrels mostly forward 2/3, the deepest I'd estimate of few tenths of millimeter

For whatever its worth, dealer checked MWT (0.033/0.035) and bores measured 0.729. Will not have an opportunity to get it checked out during inspection period, no one around here is qualified, so any comments?

I own 2 10 ga 1894 AE's. The one with 28" barrels has a serial # of P136XXX and the the one with the 32" barrels has serial # P139xxx. The short barreled gun has a hollow butt stock and was so muzzle heavy I inserted a hardware store dowel rod into the the recess. The balance feels better now.

Mergus

I shoot 2 7/8" shells in my 1882 10ga Damascus Remington. I reload all my shotgun shells. With the 10ga a moderate 12ga load data is used. 18 to 19grs of Red Dot, Green Dot, or Promo and 1oz of shot. A 16ga fiber wad inside a plastic 10ga wad [ inserted before the shot ] and you're all set to go. For 12ga just drop the powder charge a half grain. All my Remington 12ga guns, 10 of them, have 2 5/8 chambers, Damascus and steel. The 10 has 2 7/8 chambers. As said, it's pretty easy to be off a 1/8" when measuring chambers. One will have 9/16, another 5/8, and maybe even 3/4 of a inch. Don't worry about it. And I wouldn't ever lengthen the chambers or forcing cones. You're removing steel where it's needed the most. I've been shooting my Damascus Remingtons, Parkers, or Lefevers for about 23 years weekly with no problems. Forget chamber lengths, just shoot it and have fun.

Very well could be the chambers are original (2 5/8") as the measuring tool meets resistance at that depth. Could be a slight taper in the last 3/8" or so. At any rate I have no plans to grind metal out.

My last experience with a chamber length mystery involved a european 12 double offered by a very well known dealer, who reported that the chambers measured 2 7/8", although 75mm was stamped on the flat. In actuality the chambers were tapered in the last 1" so that his tool stopped 1/8" ahead of the forcing cones.