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Webley & Scott 400 Series verses 700 Series Shotgun

I was recently viewing the attached YouTube video from TGS Outdoors, re: The Webley & Scott 700 series shotgun.

Webley & Scott 700 Series Shotgun

My question to the British shotgun experts, is the newer Webley & Scott 700 series shotgun superior to their older 400 series shotgun? From what I can see, the 400 series model had the disc-set strikers and the screw-grip rib extension third fastener over the post-1946 700 series model.

Example of the Webley & Scott 400 Series Shotgun

Any opinions on model preference?

Thanks in advance.
Much better fit and finish engraving on the 400. 700 are great guns
Integral strikers/tumblers on the 700. If a striker breaks, you own a single shot until it is repaired. The 400 allows for you to replace the striker yourself. I know of two 700s that broke striker/tumblers on the first shot of opening day. May never happen again, but, it wouldn’t matter on a 400.
The English guys will be along with more. They are both satisfactory designs.

Best,
Ted
Integral strikers are on approx 98% of British boxlocks. Disk set strikers on boxlocks are relatively rare….kinda like intercepting sears.
The 400’s do have disc set strikers, and that’s great…if you have additional strikers already made to fit and, and this a biggie….if you can remove the disk itself. Simply having a tool that fits the disk isn’t enough in most cases, especially if the disk tool is a hand tool like the type you find in gun cases, etc. In my experience, to get the disk out, it is done with a tight fitting, custom made tool that is also fitted into a belly brace or hand impact driver to get the disk to even budge. Many disk are damaged so badly during removal that another must be made and fitted in.
400’s and 700’s suffer from the same flaws. The barrel hook. I don’t think the screw grip bite adds much of anything, probably why they redesigned the gun into the 700 series.
Either one is a proven performer and with proper maintenance and care will last a lifetime or 2.
I do like 400’s for the same reason MC stated, the higher graded guns were wonderful. Beautifully engraved and the fit and finish are usually very nice. I’ve owned a few. Nice guns.

I hope “gunman” comes along shortly, he probably is the most knowledgeable guy on here about mechanics of W&S stuff…..he apprenticed with them.
Thanks for the feedback.

Good points LeFusil on the disc-strikers. I had never thought about them in those terms. I have disc-strikers on my modern Spanish double guns, so had assumed they were superior. But of course as with all handmade guns, unless you have spare parts made with the gun upfront you are out of commission anyways if a pin or spring breaks. When I custom ordered one of my Spanish shotguns, I tried to get a spare set of firing pins and springs made at the same time. But for whatever reason they didn’t want to do it, even though I was willing to pay for it. So now if a firing pin breaks on that gun, I’m screwed anyways.

Getting back to the Webley & Scott screw-grip bite, was it maybe considered a more finicky or complicated design, and so dropped from their 700 series models?

From my observations, there seems to be a lot more Webley & Scott 700 series models kicking around on the market than the 400 series models which were also built for a lot of years. Just wondering why.
I have a rebadged W&S that has a machined in place non-replaceable hinge pin. Fortunately TIG welding can make necessary repairs should the gun become off face. This design is typical among W&S guns. Gil
Only had 2 disc set pins replaced,both on AYA`s and both required the bushes being machined out ,not exactly a simple replacement job.And yes both were tackled by very experienced `smiths . I did have a V Sarasqueta sidelock that you could quite easily remove the bushings by hand .
Just finished up repairing a damaged bushing on an AYA, much more of a PIA than repairing a broken tip on a boxlock tumbler in my opinion.
The 400 were made for a lot of other names the 700 not so much
Hello, as a layman with no technical ability or knowledge , I'll give my short view of the two. I have handled, viewed and used many examples of both, over the years . The 400 series are in general delightful, pleasant and have a lovely feel. Reliable and very nice . The 700s are workmanlike with average looks and fairly lifeless ,again reliable. Pound for pound and all being equalI would opt for 400 without doubt. Pigs ears and silk purses in both series of course. Regards
I have a Model 500 Webley and Scott. Very nice gun. Pictured in Crawfords book. VERY few Model 500s made. Fancy wood, wonderful engraving and disc set strikers. I’m curious if anyone else here has a 500.
A couple discussion threads that I found relating to the Webley & Scott 400, 500 and 700 series shotguns.

Doublegun bbs Webley & Scott 500 series

Pigeon Watch Webley & Scott 500 series
I own a single gun, a lowly Spanish boxlock, that is equipped with disc set strikers. When I got the gun, it didn’t have the tool to remove them, or a set of spare strikers. Cole Haugh did some service work to the gun, and supplied strikers and the tool. The discs are a piece of cake to remove from the gun. I can change both strikers out, and have the gun running again in 10 minutes, sitting in the cab of the truck, in the dark. I have pulled both discs out, and can’t understand why any maker would fit them so poorly you destroyed them taking them out. I have witnessed, in an old English boxlock, a case of the tumbler coming to rest on the protruding edge of a disc, that resulted in the edge of the disc getting beat over the threads in the face of the breech. This was just sloppy design, poor workmanship, or, both. I don’t expect it is typical. Maybe I’m wrong, and that is typical, but, when the idea is properly executed, it is a good one. If I had to fight that hard to get them out, I’d be pissed. No reason for that. Complaining that you have to have a tool and spare strikers to put the idea to use is like complaining you have to have keys to start a truck. Get real.
98% of English boxlocks might have integral strikers, but, 100% of them are single shots when one breaks. Most of those English boxlocks have a couple lifetimes of use on them, by now, and, some are going to break. Seen that movie, along with the single trigger movie. You guys can watch it.
Listening to a gunsmith tell me how much he would prefer to fix integral strikers is a funny joke when I can fix my own disc set strikers in a minute, without his help or cost, thank you very much.
Carry on.

Best,
Ted
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
I own a single gun, a lowly Spanish boxlock, that is equipped with disc set strikers. When I got the gun, it didn’t have the tool to remove them, or a set of spare strikers. Cole Haugh did some service work to the gun, and supplied strikers and the tool. The discs are a piece of cake to remove from the gun. I can change both strikers out, and have the gun running again in 10 minutes, sitting in the cab of the truck, in the dark. I have pulled both discs out, and can’t understand why any maker would fit them so poorly you destroyed them taking them out. I have witnessed, in an old English boxlock, a case of the tumbler coming to rest on the protruding edge of a disc, that resulted in the edge of the disc getting beat over the threads in the face of the breech. This was just sloppy design, poor workmanship, or, both. I don’t expect it is typical. Maybe I’m wrong, and that is typical, but, when the idea is properly executed, it is a good one. If I had to fight that hard to get them out, I’d be pissed. No reason for that. Complaining that you have to have a tool and spare strikers to put the idea to use is like complaining you have to have keys to start a truck. Get real.
98% of English boxlocks might have integral strikers, but, 100% of them are single shots when one breaks. Most of those English boxlocks have a couple lifetimes of use on them, by now, and, some are going to break. Seen that movie, along with the single trigger movie. You guys can watch it.
Listening to a gunsmith tell me how much he would prefer to fix integral strikers is a funny joke when I can fix my own disc set strikers in a minute, without his help or cost, thank you very much.
Carry on.

Best,
Ted

Funny indeed. I'm sure the new strikers and tool to remove them them were free? Something you could do yourself?
Thanks Tim. I am familiar with the 2 articles. And no, I don’t plan to mess with the strikers.
Originally Posted by SKB
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
I own a single gun, a lowly Spanish boxlock, that is equipped with disc set strikers. When I got the gun, it didn’t have the tool to remove them, or a set of spare strikers. Cole Haugh did some service work to the gun, and supplied strikers and the tool. The discs are a piece of cake to remove from the gun. I can change both strikers out, and have the gun running again in 10 minutes, sitting in the cab of the truck, in the dark. I have pulled both discs out, and can’t understand why any maker would fit them so poorly you destroyed them taking them out. I have witnessed, in an old English boxlock, a case of the tumbler coming to rest on the protruding edge of a disc, that resulted in the edge of the disc getting beat over the threads in the face of the breech. This was just sloppy design, poor workmanship, or, both. I don’t expect it is typical. Maybe I’m wrong, and that is typical, but, when the idea is properly executed, it is a good one. If I had to fight that hard to get them out, I’d be pissed. No reason for that. Complaining that you have to have a tool and spare strikers to put the idea to use is like complaining you have to have keys to start a truck. Get real.
98% of English boxlocks might have integral strikers, but, 100% of them are single shots when one breaks. Most of those English boxlocks have a couple lifetimes of use on them, by now, and, some are going to break. Seen that movie, along with the single trigger movie. You guys can watch it.
Listening to a gunsmith tell me how much he would prefer to fix integral strikers is a funny joke when I can fix my own disc set strikers in a minute, without his help or cost, thank you very much.
Carry on.

Best,
Ted

Funny indeed. I'm sure the new strikers and tool to remove them them were free? Something you could do yourself?

I could have built the tool and the strikers myself. Would have had to pester a friend for the use of his lathe. But, Cole had them on the shelf, and, they were reasonable. I might feel differently if the discs in the gun were poorly fitted enough to make it challenging to get them out, but, that isn’t the case.

Best,
Ted
Ted,
The guns were talking about are British guns, some of them dating back to the early 1900’s. Yes, there is several very good reasons for difficult to remove disk……The disk have been in the breech face for literally thousands of rounds….some of them corrosive primers and black powder… and then factor in the weather, time, maintenance practice, etc…and now you have disk that will not budge. I highly doubt you’re ugartechea has seen any where near that amount of use or abuse in its relatively short lifespan. Fitted poorly? In fact they were fitted so well that any amount of corrosion will end up locking them up for practically an eternity.
That’s awesome that your Ugartechea disc come out so well. From our past discussions on the gun…it sounds like it’s a very lightly used specimen. You’re lucky. My model 30’s disk used to like to come loose all on their own.😳.

Get real? C’mon. Take a poll on how many people actually have spare, fitted strikers and a proper, well fitted tool to go along with their guns with disk set strikers (for any makers guns) or for that matter…a new set of fitted mainsprings or top lever springs to slap into the gun just in case. Doubt many people at all have everything ready to go like you do. Most guys into this hobby just bring along a back up gun in case something goes wrong.
In my time dealing with British guns….I’ve NEVER needed to replace a striker in the field or at home. I did have a 130 year old mainspring shit the bed during a hunting trip. That’s it. I didn’t have a spare with me. It got fixed later. Gun got cased, I grabbed another gun and the hunting continued. That’s getting real.
muchatrucha, it sounds like you have a very nice, rare Webley & Scott shotgun, Enjoy. And I don’t plan to mess with any disc-strikers either.

Ted, you are very lucky to have access to a Gunsmith like Cole Haugh, which I don’t. Where I live, it’s hard enough just finding 2 1/2” ammunition to shoot in my vintage guns, let alone a good qualified gunsmith to work on them. However, from the feedback received so far, I still think I would buy a Webley & Scott, 400 series shotgun with the disc-set strikers.

Here is a best Webley & Scott shotgun that is coming up for auction at Holts this month. A London branded Webley & Scott boxlock. Anyone know what model this one would be?

Holts Webley & Scott London
That’s a Scott Reliance made from 1900 to 1935. Notable characteristics are the reinforced bolsters on side of action, side clips, and Greener type cross bolt*. Very nice guns and the one you mentioned seems to be of the very highest grade. Very unusual fancy back action.

*information from “The History of W. & C. Scott Gunmakers” by Crawford and Whatley
Dustin,
I’ve never replaced a striker, either. But, I had a spare for the BSS, and I’ve got ‘em for the Uggy. If the design allows for making a repair easier, why wouldn’t you take the few extra steps to line up the tools and parts, put ‘em in the case, and check to see if the discs could be removed before you had to find that out? Probably explains why the 700 came with a less serviceable design, people maybe didn’t do it anyway. ‘Kinda like the new automatic transmissions, that have no provision for maintenance, and get new fluid and filter, at rebuild.
Tim, there are GREAT gunsmiths who live in Canada. I’m not up on who is working and who isn’t, but, Canvasback, a poster who is here regularly, can put you onto some of the best. You wouldn’t regret either gun, but, whoever described the 700 as more “workmanlike” nailed it. They built a lot of them, the 400 not so much. I have but one 2 1/2” gun, a 12, and if ammunition is tough to find, I slip some of the lighter AA loads in it, 1 Oz or 1 1/8th Oz, the 1150fps loads, and don’t worry too much about it.
Good luck.

Best,
Ted
The model 400 was made from approximately 1900 to 1946. W&S made a shit load of 400’s in every gauge and in few different grades.
The 700 was produced post WW2, with production starting around 1947.

I’d venture to say that there were more 400’s produced for the trade than there were 700’s….by the time the 7 hundy came along, the trade was really starting on its downward slide.

I guess the answer to your question Ted is not many people have run into catastrophic problems with their guns and for the most part, probably don’t feel the need to carry spare parts and special tools with them. I think it’s safe to say that the majority of shooters of vintage guns arent as diligent as you are in making sure they’re prepared for a failure in the field by stocking up on fitted pins, springs and tooling. You’re a well prepared guy, pretty mechanically inclined, where a good many vintage shotgun shooters are not.

The only time I see gunsmiths messing with the disc is during complete strip and cleans and or repairing a wonky striker. I see alot of strip and cleans….and that’s where I see the problems with removing the disk. More often than not…a tool must be made and fitted to the disk for proper removal. There is no one tool fits all for those things.

I think W&S figured that there was no longer a reason to incorporate disk set strikers in their actions because they weren’t worried about integral strikers breaking very much at all, which they don’t. That was probably a pretty good cost saving feature eliminating the extra machining and fitting of those disk.
Same with the screw grip extension. Over 50+ years of making them…they probably figured that the screw grip didn’t add much of anything to the function or strength of the gun and therefore eliminated that feature as well, thus reducing cost of the action again.
Reading about the hardships involved in minor repairs on the Anson and Deeley type boxlock brings to mind the ease of maintenance and repair of the Beretta 626 action which technically can be defined as a boxlock since the lockwork is housed in the action body.

The stock is pulled in seconds due to its bolt. Every single part can be replaced with a simple punch, no screws. Parts drop in and work with no fitting. And it has secondary tumbler bents to prevent accidental discharge. IF a firing pin breaks the tumbler is a fairly inexpensive part to replace. Our local Beretta dealer has a bunch of them, never sold one because none broke apparently. Actually he did sell one that I turned into a key fob.
Give me a hand made A&D quality Brummy boxlock over the Berretta any day. I do not find owning or working on them a hardship. I already own plenty of screwdrivers, no issue there. Good guns that require very little to keep going like the Energizer Bunny. What is not to like?
Yep and the pink ribbon you tie on your gun to make sure you pick up the correct gun .cookie cutter smile
I was expecting gunman to chime in though he may feel that each of us has posted a good number of postings on W & S though I do have some things to say that I have not covered regarding the 700 series. As other folks have said that the 400 series was a more up market gun the reason being it was built and sold before ww2 with the 700 coming after ww 2 at a time when things in Britain was a lot of hand to mouth with rashoning that went on until 1954. Because of this people did not have a lot of disposable income so W & S still had to produce a home market range of shot guns so the 700 series side by side was produced as a cost cut 400 series. There where cost limitations removal of screw grip disk set strikers and back to basic wood, though on the working parts that mattered quality stayed the same with very little alterations. One benefit of the war that a lot of good quality steel was available at low prices. The first guns that came out of the factory where real plain Jane's and that name did stick for many years though the kinder name was a keepers gun with no frills but with ejectors the ability to work well in all situations with very little service if any.
This is my 1950 700 what you see is what you get. But what you cant see is the handling and balance being slightly lighter and is far superior to the models that followed along later.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Also with 21/2 inch chambers

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Just for comparison two actions one very early and a later offering of the 700 the bottom action in the photograph is the oldest

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Finally a mid 70's version but by then w & S would make many barrel lengths and different wood and engraving qualities, including some two barrel sets

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

All with 23/4 inch chambers though the later versions do not handle like their first offerings but as they say what cant speak cant lie a vast am mount of the factory's 700 output is still with us and working well some 60 years later.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Engraving is not generous but it is hand engraved with the engravers having a little personal flexibility on how they engraved the guns as you will see from the action photograph. Could say a lot more but it has already been said a number of times though one thing that is starting to grate with me is the much rolled out fixed hinge pin with you have to do work on the barrel hook if the gun comes off face. From what I have found there are mot many gunsmiths want to go to all the work of removing the hinge pin and making a larger replacement when they could just weld the barrel hook and that goes for many guns.
Damascus,
How many strikers have you broke on your 400’s & 700’s?
Le Fusil I have owned 3 400's when I sold them they all had their original strikers, these two 700 both have the original strikers and all their original internal parts still this is not unusual as the guns are practically bomb proof they work on the absolute minimum of parts.
Whilst 700s may be practically bomb proof, there are 2 faults I have experienced on several guns and have heard of others with the same problem....loose ribs and off face. Possibly previous neglect is one contributing factor, but these faults arise in 700s none the less. As gunman has stated previously, the later 700s may not have been built to stringent standards. Regards
Guns go off the face only with use the size of load used is also a contributing factor so no make of gun is immune from this. I have repaired nearly new guns with loose ribs and more Spanish offerings than I care to remember. Of course gunman's opinion is just his a opinion the same as mine just opinion, he cant have seen every gun built by w & S over the years." having heard of" as far as I see does not carry any weight for a convincing argument as they say talk is cheap fact is costly. For so many guns to be out there and working their reliability must be high enough for the thousands sold around the world. Finally all the working parts of a 700 can be made by hand with a file occasionally a lathe if necessary I do know this because over the years I have done it they are internally so basic.
Those faults can arise on any gun, they aren’t exclusive to 700’s, that’s for certain. I mentioned earlier the hook design on the 4 & 700’s being a weak point of the gun. They’re smaller than normal and tend to wear in rather quickly, especially with heavy use. I’ve seen many many 400’s with dovetailed and welded up hooks, and a few 700’s with the same treatment. Don’t see too many dovetailed 700’s, that method being somewhat obsolete with the advent of spray welding, tig and laser.
1 very nice 400 I owned had a dovetailed hook. 2 other of my 400’s sported welded hooks. My lone 700 actioned gun has a tig welded hook (JJ Perodeau) and after a few thousand rounds it is still tight and on the face.
Originally Posted by damascus
Guns go off the face only with use the size of load used is also a contributing factor so no make of gun is immune from this. I have repaired nearly new guns with loose ribs and more Spanish offerings than I care to remember. Of course gunman's opinion is just his a opinion the same as mine just opinion, he cant have seen every gun built by w & S over the years." having heard of" as far as I see does not carry any weight for a convincing argument as they say talk is cheap fact is costly. For so many guns to be out there and working their reliability must be high enough for the thousands sold around the world. Finally all the working parts of a 700 can be made by hand with a file occasionally a lathe if necessary I do know this because over the years I have done it they are internally so basic.
If you read my earlier post you will have noticed I stated a favourable opinion of reliability re 700s. That does not disguise the fact that faults can arise in the guns. Yes, faults happen in all guns but we are talking 700s here . As stated my own preference is for an earlier screw grip 400
or A&W action.Finally on your argument of cheap talk and " having heard of" I am relaying my personal experiences and that of many honest shooting friends, in and out of the trade, who have vast knowledge of British guns . Regards
Damascus, absolutely no offense intended, but I feel a need to remind folks that any gun's objective handling is a combination of weight, balance (teeter-totter point) relative to (front) trigger, unmounted swing effort, and mounted swing effort. Subjective handling is an individual shooter's personal feeling/satisfaction as to the combination of handling factors (above). None of these four factors is stand-alone. There is no single factor that sums up handling.

Weight requires a weigh scale, balance requires a fulcrum and a ruler, and swing efforts require measurement of the moment of inertia at the balance point. Balance is often misused to mean handling. Unfortunately, there is no overall "balance" of a gun and there are no secret magical ways of "making a good handling gun."

DDA
SKB said "What is not to like?" referring to hand made Birmingham boxlocks. Well, the high cost of simple maintenance is one reason. Other reasons are evident throughout this thread.

The usual mantra is that a SXS should be cleaned and serviced annually or at least biannually. On a hand made SXS that job has a considerable cost. A SXS action that allows owner maintenance with not special tools has an advantage that is important to many people.

From the engineering and design point of view the 626 action has the Anson Deeley beat on every point. The solid cross pin and V springs being the start and it goes on from there. I had two V springs, one tumbler one ejector, break on me, it was not fun. A gunsmith friend who worked for Boss has called the solid cross pin a manufacturing perversion.
I enjoy nicely made items, especially nice guns when I hunt. A bit of maintenance does not bother me. It sounds like you have had some bad luck. My own guns have not needed near the amount of repair yours have required. I do drive a very practical vehicle, a Toyota Tacoma. To each their own but I'll stick with hand made British guns thanks. I find they suit my purpose just fine, with a minimum amount of hassle and they bring me great pleasure, something that mass produced guns do not do for me.
The Beretta has the a&d beat on every point except soul and a human touch you can get a 400 fit and finished by 20 makers .each one might add it's own take on engraving ,stocking.straight hand pow, full pistol.something to make most shot gun lover smile.
and how do you assign value to soul?

Few of us who are truly doublegun aficionados value practicality over nostalgia. If I wanted a nice practical gun I would be on the Benelli forum but I'm not. I fill my freezer every year with wild game, not because it is less costly but because I thoroughly enjoy my time an the field and vintage double add to my experience. YMMV,
Steve
And that's what I was trying to say ,the value is the work some unknown craftsman put in to a gun because he could .like Len bull would say ,,you go back and do that right this isn't fkn cogswell and harrison .
Well, at least Coggie had a real factory and made most of their own guns in house…that means multiple known craftsmen actually ran the machines, sat at the bench and did the work…..completely opposite of what happened at E.M. Reilly’s super Walmart/Sears catalog store.😂.
I know, that wasn’t nice at all.😒

I wonder what Len Bull would say about a Extra Quality Victor?
So defensive ,Len was working at Holland and Holland at the time and if you did something substandard you were told to do it to Holland's standards .not cogswell and harrison.
Mark, I miss Leonard’s visits to Dennis’s class! Great stories from a wealth of knowledge told by a guy that was there. I can’t look at a Coggy with out hearing Leonard!
Len was the best, not very PC and no real interest becoming PC. I liked him quite a bit and took several classes from him. A real character that is for sure. I ended up going to school at TSJC right after he retired from full time teaching but got to know him through summer classes and when he would stop by our classes to chat. I miss him too.
Leonard was London trained he did a double apprenticeship gun work and machine he was a nco jungle fighter in Malaysia he went to Kenya worked for Shaw and Hunter and after independence the name was changed kenya bundeki he was a policeman in Kenya and shot on there Olympic teams I think in mexico and im not sure Munich or japan and he worked for Holland and Holland and passed on gunsmith skill for over 20 years now that a life
He was a character and one of a kind
Originally Posted by mc
So defensive ,Len was working at Holland and Holland at the time and if you did something substandard you were told to do it to Holland's standards .not cogswell and harrison.

Ya. I get it. It was a joke.
mc said "The Beretta has the a&d beat on every point except soul and a human touch"

on this you are dead wrong. I have been to the Beretta factory several times and have pics of stages of the 626 manufacture. The ribs were laid by hand, by one man. The barrels were hand fitted to the action, by a small group of specialised fitters, some of them ladies, working in a well lit, well ventilated space that puts the English workshops I visited to shame.

Each stage of machining is hand checked on sophisticated measuring tools. Parts hardness is tested on modern apparatus.

If you wanted more soul you could have it sent down the road (literallyl) and have a world class engraver hand touch the engraving. And on to Valeriano to have the stock tailored to your precise dimensions and tastes. And all this can happen in one day and cost a couple of hundred Euro.

I did not do any of the above. I "invested" in a British boxlock that has done plenty for the soul of my gunsmith but nil for mine. That lesson was not enough, I repeated it with an Italian bespoke Anson-Deeley SXS which is just as finicky, but at least the Italian maker sends me parts, usually free of charge.

Has any English maker ever offered a replacement V spring for one of his guns free of charge? I would love to know who and when.
I have had the best luck with the English guns I have a Scott Monte Carlo B, George grahm, Scott m400. I have had them over 20 years mabey 25 I haven't had any problems I shoot the grahm the most and use it for everthing doves quail pheasants and a grouse hunt in canada sorry about your bad luck
Shotgun lover you are welcome to like what you like. I shoot Beretta at times. But by your logic the worst thing you could own is a London Best Sidelock.
Maybe some people just don't like England or English stuff?

To quote Jonny Carter from the YouTube video at the start of this thread, “These things [W&S boxlocks] are quintessentially English, if you love England and English stuff, how can you be without one of these in your life?”

Exactly!! He sold me, Ha! Ha!
Dustin,
I don’t know production numbers for 400 versus 700 guns, and probably worded that wrong. You find far more 700s, here, in the US than 400s. The 400s I’ve seen were better looking guns.

Seen two 700s with a broken tumbler/striker. A 16 and a 12. Actually, didn’t witness either, just felt the wrath of the owners, who both lost use of the guns for that season. Some of the areas I hunt are populated with unsavory characters, and, at least for day or weekend trips, I don’t bring a backup gun. Got out of that habit. I have a few I have great confidence in, as well. Soul, I guess. Dad’s old Beretta Snipe has as much soul as anything else I’ve ever owned, but, maybe it came from Dad.

I service all my guns, and as a matter of point, any gun I buy, new or used, gets torn down to bits, cleaned and lubed, and function checked at my club before it gets anywhere near the truck for a trip out hunting. If you don’t know if you can get the discs out, or, own the tool or a spare set of strikes, dollars to donuts the gun is in the field, and hasn’t been serviced. There are guys who roll that way, but, I’m not that guy.

Best,
Ted
"But by your logic the worst thing you could own is a London Best Sidelock."

not the worst, but a Dickson Round Action and the Stefano Zanotti improved sidelock give a way out of the impasse.

As for liking things English, I lived there for 14 years, started my hunting career there, first with a Greener GP and then an Empire. Most of my crowd shot with used Cogswells and sort of looked down at the Greener as being a little "too country" which was their way of calling me a peasant I guess.

I remember W&S 700s at our local gunshop, Whaley's at Hornsey road, being offered at 156 pounds when the Remington 1100 was 120 and the Darne Halifax 110 pounds. Mrs Whaley used to shoot Skeet with an 1100 for its low recoil..
Shotgunlover,you should have found new friends .friends don't let friends shoot coggies:)
“ If you don’t know if you can get the discs out, or, own the tool or a spare set of strikes, dollars to donuts the gun is in the field, and hasn’t been serviced.”

Huh? Or Ted, dollars to donuts, maybe they have their guns serviced by a gunsmith? I’d hazard a guess and say an extremely high percentage of people who own doubles, vintage or modern, don’t posses the proper tools, parts, skills or experience to repair, strip & clean or inspect a doublegun.
And let’s be honest here…..90+% of vintage/modern double gun owners don’t have their guns serviced on the regular….usually the only time a gun gets serviced is when something goes wrong. The fraternity that has their guns completely serviced on the regular is very limited to almost non existent.
The vast majority of guns that come into a good friends shop for complete strip & cleans are almost entirely best grade guns owned by very well off people. You don’t see too many “regular” type guns, boxlock or sidelock, in the shop for strip & cleans. Most people who own doubles are not willing to pay $300+ for for a complete strip & clean of a boxlock actioned gun.
I have quite a few local pals and a few more abroad who own doubles….none of them seem to own the tools nor posses the skills to completely take down or adjust a boxlock or sidelock shotgun, especially ejector mechanisms. They mostly all take very good care of their guns and have them serviced by a reputable gunsmith, and sometimes even trust their guns to me for minor fixes and strip & cleans, finishing etc.
Point being, they don’t do any of the work themselves and their guns hit the field ready to go and provide them with virtually flawless service.

Yep, in the world of doubleguns, you’re an anomaly. One of the few that can take down & service most of his own guns. That’s awesome and the skill set is definitely beneficial. Like doctors…the goal is to do no harm. Unfortunately, I’ve seen a lot of instances of lots of harm being done by unskilled hands. Trying to remove stubborn disk from the breach face is one them. Trying to remove pins and screws with ill fitting turnscrews is another. Cocking actions or squeezing springs using hardened steel tools is a common bugaboo too. Imagine just anyone digging into a Perkes, Wem or Baker ejector mechanism, or trying their hand at completely taking down a Purdey. Catastrophe.😳
If you don’t posses the tools, skills or knowledge….let a pro or well stocked, skilled enthusiast handle it.

Hell Ted, most people who own extremely simple guns like 1100’s and 870’s barely know how to break down their guns for a service! I just had a friends Browning A-500R on the bench for a strip & clean, there was enough dirt, seeds and crap in that gun one could’ve planted a field. Said his dad shot it for over a decade and one day, about 10 years ago, it just stopped working. Hmmmmmm. What a mystery.😂
I don’t think the gun had ever been taken apart other than to clean the barrel and wipe down the outside. I believe this is pretty typical when it comes to a majority of gun owners.
What Le Fusil said!

Especially this: "Most people who own doubles are not willing to pay $300+ for for a complete strip & clean of a boxlock actioned gun."
Morphy's Auctions has a 16 gauge W&S 400 in its next auction. Lot no. 2193. They certainly were handsome guns.
It is a very nice gun, just a little heavy, but maybe light enough.
Dustin,
After I’ve been through a gun, it won’t get touched again for years. I don’t get to shoot thousands of rounds through them, or clock out of my day to day life for a few months, hunting birds. But, everything gets taken down when I come into it. And, you do the same. It should be the case for any old gun, but, I’ll bet you are correct, guys just run ‘em until they break. That’s a shame, but, it is what it is.
That 400 at the auction house is a neat old gun. I’d be interested from the posters in England what a gun like that would sell for, today, in an English gun shop. Bet it isn’t anywhere near the price Morphy’s thinks they are going to get.

It isn’t heavy, either.


Best,
Ted
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Dustin,
After I’ve been through a gun, it won’t get touched again for years. I don’t get to shoot thousands of rounds through them, or clock out of my day to day life for a few months, hunting birds. But, everything gets taken down when I come into it. And, you do the same. It should be the case for any old gun, but, I’ll bet you are correct, guys just run ‘em until they break. That’s a shame, but, it is what it is.
That 400 at the auction house is a neat old gun. I’d be interested from the posters in England what a gun like that would sell for, today, in an English gun shop. Bet it isn’t anywhere near the price Morphy’s thinks they are going to get.

It isn’t heavy, either.


Best,
Ted

it isn't light, either.
Okay, just to get things straight here, the W&S 400 in the Morphy's Auction is a Grade 1 Morphy's Auction example, the Hallowell's W&S 400 is a Grade 2 Hallowell's example? and Joe Wood's W&S 400 Properitory model is a Grade 3 Joe Wood's Proprietary example? Is this correct?

Also in Joe Wood's Proprietary model, it looks to me like the hinge pin has a screw? Does this mean the hinge pin is replaceable in the Proprietary grade?

Thanks.

Webley & Scott, Model 400 Series, Grade 3. Earlier version, 1914 W&S catalogue.

or

Webley & Scott, Model 400 Series, Grade 3. Later version?
Pretty sure the hinge pin was serviceable in any 400, and not in the 700. Doesn’t seem that “gunman” has been in these parts for most of a year, that is a shame, as he knows all those guns quite well, and I hope he is doing fine.

Best,
Ted
Hinge pin isn’t serviceable. The 400, 500, 600, 700 all have solid pins. The pins are for the cocking levers and I believe the second set is for the ejector trips.

I might be going out on a limb here, but the only serviceable hinge pins that I can remember were found on a FEW W&S 700 actions when H&H acquired the company and they built the Bowood & Northwood model, and not all of those models were built on that unique hinge pin action. The actions made with a removable hing pin are pretty rare birds.
I stand corrected. Thanks, Dustin.

Best,
Ted
One more Len story before I forget. This morning I am fitting a pad with a widows peak and happened to remember Len telling me about an especially picky client while working at H&H. The client had a new pad fit to his gun and felt the LOP was off, by less than a 1/16" of an inch. The shop managers solution?

Bend the F@%&ing trigger.
Len drove a ww2 jeep from Kenya to south Africa he had a problem on the way a failing part(I don't remember what he told me) in some fuel stop along the way hanging on the wall was the part he needed he was flumuxed .half the story was the way he told it.
What ever the part was I’m sure he could have made one from an old file 🤪🤪!
Indeed.....Did you see the monkey tail rifle he built from parts he picked up at the scrap yard and an old .577/450 take off barrel?

Len was something.
He build a purdey clone muzzle loader ,he said the original purdey was in the shop for cleaning so he copied it it is a thing of beauty.the monkey tail started off with his brother finding a lock in a junk store in england len built the rest and made the rounds with period looking packaging with his name on them.
Originally Posted by Tim Cartmell
Okay, just to get things straight here, the W&S 400 in the Morphy's Auction is a Grade 1 Morphy's Auction example, the Hallowell's W&S 400 is a Grade 2 Hallowell's example? and Joe Wood's W&S 400 Properitory model is a Grade 3 Joe Wood's Proprietary example? Is this correct?

Also in Joe Wood's Proprietary model, it looks to me like the hinge pin has a screw? Does this mean the hinge pin is replaceable in the Proprietary grade?

Thanks.

So I managed to track down the Webley & Scott 1922 catalogue. The Webley & Scott, 400 Series, Grade 1, is fully engraved, includes deeply carved oak leaf design on the fences, has spaniels ears on the forend, and drop points on the stock (as per Morphy's Auction). The Grade 2 is still fully engraved but without the deep relief engraving on the fences, and has drop points on the stock Webley & Scott, Series 400, Grade 2. The Grade 3 has the minimal border engraving, and no drop points on the stock. So it appears the Hallowell pictured Webley & Scott 400 series would actually be a Grade 3.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Webley & Scott, 400 Series, Grade 3 taken from a circa 1930/1940 advertisement.
Regarding the interchangeable principal on the Webley & Scott, 400 Series, 'The History of W. & C. Scott Gunmakers', by Crawford & Whatley, states on pgs. 65 & 68, "Webley & Scott introduced the Proprietary hammerless boxlock, later called the Model 400, in 1900. The Proprietary boxlock was one of several Webley & Scott models designed on the interchangeable principle. Virtually all of the major British gunmakers of this era used machines for the initial shaping of parts, but the interchangeable principal took the use of machines an additional step. The components of the gun were machined to precise dimensions to reduce time required for assembly of the gun and to facilitate replacement of worn or broken parts. Final fitting of parts, stocking, and finishing were all performed by hand."
That isn’t “ancanthus” on the fences. That style is deep relief oak leaves. The action body and barrel wedges are fine English scroll.
I miss my Proprietary grade 1 W&S. Beautiful gun.
Originally Posted by LeFusil
That isn’t “ancanthus” on the fences. That style is deep relief oak leaves. The action body and barrel wedges are fine English scroll.
I miss my Proprietary grade 1 W&S. Beautiful gun.
You are right about the engraving on the fences.Thanks LeFusil. My eyes are getting too old to see properly. I've corrected that mistake in my above post.

Webley & Scott, 400 Series, Grade 1

Webley & Scott, Series 400, Grade 1
Morphy Auction. Webley & Scott, 400 Series, Grade 1. Sold for $1,900.00. Morphy Auction, W&S 400, Grade 1
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